Is there any hope left for me??? (Freaking out about Hebrews 6:4-6 & 10:26-27)

Billy93

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Hi,

I don’t quite know where to begin (or if this is even the right place for me to be posting this), but for the last few days I’ve been feeling awful/terrified and I am more in-doubt than ever as to my salvation/the state of my soul. I apologize in advance for the length - I know it’s VERY long and I don’t blame you if you don’t read it all.

TL;DR I was raised in a Christian family, got to college/grad school and entered a very sinful lifestyle. Last year I started changing and taking my faith way more seriously than ever before. Does Hebrews say it’s too late for me to repent? Am I doomed to hell? :/

(Part 1)

Some backstory about me: At the time of writing this, I’m a 27-year-old guy. Growing up, I was raised in a Christian (Baptist) family, and we went to church every week. I “asked the Lord Jesus into my heart”/“got saved” sometime in elementary school; don’t remember the exact year but I remember praying privately and then going and telling my family about it later. For most of middle/high school I outwardly probably seemed a good Christian boy (and I attended a Christian private school), but I didn’t much enjoy going to church, and I got involved in watching inappropriate contentography (including some gay inappropriate content - so I had some struggles with orientation). And then I wound up fooling around some sexually with my high school girlfriend - though she was a Christian too and we both wanted to save “actual sex” for marriage, so we somehow managed to not go all-the-way in our 3-year relationship.

I also began to struggle with OCD/anxiety (which I still deal with some and is perhaps relevant to my freaking out?), and was convinced at the time that my obsessive thoughts were some sort of demonic attack. ...Though it didn’t really lead me to get closer to God. I did get baptized (on the beach on Easter Sunday; was a cool experience) when I was 16 or so - and while I did “believe,” honestly I’m ashamed to say that part of the impetus for me to do it was that my girlfriend did it the year prior, and I felt like an inferior Christian to her because she had been baptized and I hadn’t.

Aside from saying evening prayers every night with my parents when I was a little kid, and silently praying along when my dad would bless the food during family dinnertime all my life, I really didn’t pray all that much. Didn’t regularly read my Bible either. Basically, I don’t think I really had a whole lot going on spiritually. And that’s probably why it all came tumbling down when I went away to college up north, out-of-state.

My first year of college I was pretty much the same, and at my parents’ urging I did try to attend a church as well as the school’s InterVarsity group. But I wasn’t exactly consistent in going, and by sophomore year I stopped altogether as I got involved with a new girlfriend. This girl was agnostic/practically-atheist (bad decision to even date her), and for some crazy reason I was convinced that because I had fallen head-over-heels for her, she must be “the one.”

After only about a month of dating her, I lost my virginity to her. I had wanted to wait for marriage, but I was so deluded into thinking she was “the one” and furthermore was devastated to learn that she had only just lost her virginity to a fellow student who she dated in the few months before dating me - so I was intensely jealous of him getting to know her in that way, and it led to me easily giving in. I did feel guilty for doing it, and knew there was no putting that genie back in the bottle - I felt like I was lost and there was no hope for me anymore, and that it didn’t really matter anymore what I did since I had messed up so badly. This was the major reason I stopped going to church at all.

Over the next year-and-a-half, she basically lived in my dorm room with me. I was completely living a life of sin, and I knew I no longer fit in with Christians. However, I didn’t actively renounce God or stop believing in him - in fact, one of the biggest sources of contention between she and I was our disagreements over religion (as she was agnostic). We would debate over it, and the few occasions on which I did pray, I prayed that she would see the light and realize that God was real.

The relationship ended with a sudden break-up, and I was devastated - since again, I had thought we were meant to be together, and had used that as my excuse for all the sex. “I know it’s wrong, but we’re going to end up getting married anyways so it can’t be that bad.” (What a lie!) Again though, I felt that I was too far-gone, and spiraled into a deep depression.

I foolishly decided that I might as well give in even further, and explore my sexuality curiosity that had been tempting me on and off since middle/high school. So I downloaded a gay hookup app, and impulsively wound up walking to a local hotel at 2am one night to fool around sexually with a man. (Looking back, that was obviously extremely dangerous.) Of course I felt even more guilt from having done this, and told myself that I had no desire to ever do it again. I felt absolutely disgusted with myself.

About a year later, I started grad school in NYC. Basically, long-story-short(er), over the course of the next few years in grad school and afterwards, I had a couple friends-with-benefits-turned-relationships (one of which again involved a live-in girlfriend, for my first 4 or so months living in the city), a couple basically-one-night-stands with women, and a handful more experiences with men (never “all the way” but enough).

These gay hookups always happened the same: I would download the app very late at night, find someone (thank God I often *didn’t* find someone) willing to meet up to have some fun, and then either they would come over or I would walk ~10 min away to their place. On each occasion, I felt *extreme* guilt afterwards (and in the case of the couple times in which I walked to their place, I had this awful feeling in the pit of my stomach the whole walk, and almost turned around and went home - I should have). There was one occasion when I got up and left (said I had to go home) shortly after getting there, just because I felt *so* terrible about what I was doing. A few times, I broke down crying as I walked home afterwards. After each occasion, I would delete the app and tell myself I wouldn’t do it again. …That obviously didn’t last, as I would eventually re-download the app and do it all over again.

It was a cycle of self-destruction. I kept screwing up, and I was so sick of myself. I tried to tell myself it was okay, and even tried to find excuses online for my lifestyle & behavior (like super-Progressive sites that said homosexuality was actually okay for this or that reason - which is ironic since I’m very conservative). But these excuses never sat right with me, because I knew in my heart that they contradicted the Bible.

In early 2019, I met a Christian girl in NYC. She was unlike any girl I had ever dated. Was extremely serious about Christ and her faith, and for the first time in ages I found myself actively thinking about God, praying to him, etc. We dated for a month-and-a-half, even wound up doing devotionals together. We both seemed to think we were “meant to be,” but it ended up falling apart for reasons which I will not get into in this post (another long story).

But in that month-and-a-half, I experienced for the first time in my life the feeling of what it would be like to be with a true believer who was on fire for God. And it was unlike anything I had ever experienced, and it was addicting. She had a bit of a dark past herself (in a different way), but you never would have guessed from talking to her; she just seemed radiant, as though you could tell Christ/the Holy Spirit were with her. What’s more, she forgave and looked past my own past sins and faults, and she wasn’t bothered by them even though I had obviously messed up *a lot*. I didn’t feel I deserved someone like her.

Well, when it ended I was extremely heartbroken (ironically even more than I was for the girl who I dated for a year-and-a-half who I lost my virginity to - and yet this girl and I didn’t even hold hands/kiss!), and I felt like I could never find someone like her again. But then I got to thinking, and wondered if maybe this was God trying to bring me back to him - showing me the joy that I could have if only I would give myself to him, and make *him* the focus of my relationships (and my life!). Because up to that point, he was nowhere to be found in my relationships. While I never outright denied the faith, I had pushed him out of my life time and time again, in as many ways possible.

So I felt like in a sense maybe he was saying “See what you can have if you put me first and rely on me? Life with me is better than anything you can find on your own, looking elsewhere.” It was a tough lesson, and admittedly there was some time I spent being mad at God for taking her away; I felt like he was trolling me by even bringing her into my life. I even wound up slipping up sexually again a couple times, to try and “forget” her. That didn’t work, and only made me feel immense guilt.

For example, shortly after the break-up, I had a dumb one-night-stand. It was my first time actually having sex in 3 years, and the girl texted me later saying that she would love to come over again sometime - out of guilt and a horrible pit-of-my-stomach feeling, I told her no, and deleted her number. I just didn’t want to get sucked into it all again. Nothing I could try and do/find on my own would ever measure up to that month-and-a-half of a (sexless!) God-centered relationship which I had gotten a taste of. It felt like seeking after anything else on my own was totally worthless - because it was.
 
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Billy93

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(Part 2)

Anyways, then 2020 came around. It’s funny; at the beginning of the year, I had actually just begun finally actively attending a church up there which I really liked. First time in ages. But then, COVID hit, and it basically destroyed my industry (performing arts). It made living in NYC virtually impossible due to the super-high rent, so I moved back down south to live with my parents and younger brother.

I’m not sure what exactly did it for me, but 2020 was a huge eye-opener and wake-up call for me. In summer/fall, I started praying much more than I can remember ever before, and started reading my Bible again. Since late July/early August, I have been reading the Bible & praying every day. What’s more, I’ve found myself *enjoying* reading the Bible - a lot! - something I don’t think I had ever really felt before. Some nights, I wanted to keep reading and reading. So much of what I’ve read has moved me deeply, and some nights I even found myself sobbing at passages and verses.

I’ve prayed on numerous occasions asking God to change me, to give me more faith, to mold me into who he wants me to be (to make me look more like his Son!), to help me be content with what I have, to help me find thankfulness/joy no matter what is going on, to reveal my sins and give me the strength to overcome them, to fill me with the Holy Spirit, to help me forgive others, to help me with my jealousy issues, to use me to accomplish his work, to make me into a good example for others, to give me the strength to be willing to give up anything and everything for him, and to give me the strength to “endure” no matter what.

Since July/August, I’ve found myself praying for people I don’t even like, wishing that God would bless them. I never would have thought to do that before. I’ve thanked God for things which I was never thankful for before. I find myself asking my mom if she needs help with anything (used to groan and grumble even when she would *ask* me to do something, whereas now I jump to help right away). I’ve stopped using curse words (got in a bad habit of cursing back in college/grad school). Etc.

I’m not sure I “feel” much different than I used to, and I am not sure how to tell whether one even has the Holy Spirit or is saved - but I have noticed myself behaving differently in some ways. And I can only assume this is because I’ve asked God to help me with this, because for so much of my life I have been a selfish, jealous person with too many problems to list. And I still have a ton of problems to work out; I’m *far* from perfect.

So I don’t list any of these things to brag, but rather out of confusion after having read the two Hebrews passages I mentioned in my post title:

“For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.” Hebrews 6:4-6 (KJV)

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” Hebrews 10:26-27 (KJV)

I was raised to believe Once Saved Always Saved, which is honestly probably part of the reason why I didn’t pay much mind to my sins over the years; it’s a lot easier to think “It’s okay if I sin, God forgives me anyways/I’ll just pray afterwards” than to actually try to change one’s life. Not sure where I stand now on OSAS (I don’t know what to think), but these passages in Hebrews absolutely terrify me. It’s ironic, because from August to December I read the entire New Testament (first time ever doing that), and back then I don’t recall Hebrews giving me such a hard time.

But the other day I read about these passages on some site, and they have terrorized me ever since. I’m not sure what to make of them, but taking them at face value would seem to indicate that someone like me is actually lost forever. Because of my willful sin. And yes, I know that some people will say “Well, all Christians still slip up on occasion and sin,” but it wasn’t like I just slipped up every now and then amidst trying to follow Christ. This was me actively and intentionally living in sin for a time, at least especially in the cases of the live-in girlfriends which were a day-in and day-out lifestyle choice. I had been raised to know this was wrong, and yet I did it anyways.

I tried to forget about God (except when arguing about his existence with the agnostic girl), because thinking about God would always bring me back to the truth of his Word, that what I was doing was wrong. It wasn’t that I didn’t believe in him anymore, and in fact I even still attended church with my family when I would come home to visit over the summer/holidays. It wasn’t like I was just a total unbeliever trying to put on a facade either; I found myself often agreeing with what the pastor said… I was just too caught-up in sin to see myself getting out of it anytime soon.

I guess the bottom-line is, I’m not sure what I am:

I don’t know if I first got saved in 2020, and wasn’t saved before?

I don’t know if I’ve been saved since I was a kid, and just had a period of backsliding and have “come home”?

I don’t know if I was saved as a kid, but my backsliding is what is referred to in Hebrews and thus I am no longer saved even though I know the truth - and so all I can spend the rest of my life doing is living in terrible fear of the knowledge that my fate is an eternity in hell?

I feel so confused. Of course it is possible that Satan is using these verses + my OCD/anxiety to scare me to death and try and get me off the path again, and that he is concerned by the fact that I’ve been reading my Bible/praying/trying to change for the better…

I could definitely imagine one of the following two scenarios being what is happening:

1. OSAS is false and salvation can be lost if one dies in their sins, but backsliders are welcome to repent and “come home”: thus, Satan would be trying to convince me that the Hebrews passage means backsliders *cannot* come home, and that therefore I might as well give up and go back to my self-seeking life like before (and in so doing, end up condemning myself to hell).

2. OSAS is true and salvation cannot be lost, but Satan is concerned that I am actively trying to grow fruit of the Spirit, and wants me to feel hopeless and nip it in the bud before I become a strong believer who might help lead others to Christ.

Either option would be one possible way Satan could be trying to deceive me with this. Plus, isn’t he called the Accuser, who accuses us of our sins and tries to make us feel that we are beyond saving? ...Then again, it’s possible that it’s not Satan, and that I really did just screw up beyond repair with my actions in college/grad school, and that there is no salvation available for me. I guess if that is the case, I would just have to accept that I’m lost and that I deserve hell (because I certainly do)… But I am still convinced that Christ is Lord and that the Bible is true, so even if I am doomed to hell I don’t see myself turning on God.

But haven’t lots of Christians over the years (maybe even in the Bible) backslid/turned away and made bad decisions for a time, only to come back to God later? Were these people therefore not real Christians? Was it all fake, an act, and Hebrews actually means that they are in hell now? Did they just *think* that they had overcome their sins and that God had accepted them back, but actually he hadn’t and they were deceived by Satan into thinking that?

Or is it impossible for Satan to even deceive in that way? I mean, yes he is a liar and is capable of major deception, but in some ways I would think that if someone appears to be turning from their sins and is living a more Christ-like life - and fruit of the Spirit can be seen - then I would think that’s an indication that they're legit, and that they really are saved? Idk, like I said I have OCD and so I could sit here all day with my mind going around in circles.

At the end of the day, I just want the truth, and that’s probably one reason I woke up in 2020. I felt (and still feel) so much evil in the world, and have been witnessing so much hypocrisy, so many double standards, etc., that it totally shattered any hope I had in mankind. This world is doomed and I am disgusted by it more and more on a daily basis. At this point I don’t care what happens; all I know is that I believe God is real and that Jesus Christ is his Son and that he came to die for our sins, and that he is the only way to heaven. I just hope I didn’t “miss my flight,” and that I’m still accepted there. I spent so many years not taking it seriously, then outright rebelling in sin for years, that it is so easy to think it’s too late for me.

Heck, I used to sometimes cringe at Christians who seemed to be “Jesus freaks” and who were very serious and impassioned about their faith. Up until I dated that girl in 2019, I actually *avoided* those people (primarily because I felt they would judge me for my past sins). Yet now I find myself praying to God asking to make *me* into one. And now, when it comes to dating, I am only looking for Christians who take their faith seriously.

I just need to know the truth about what is possible for me at this point. If you’ve read this far, 1. Thank you so much and 2. Please don’t hesitate to hit me with biblical truth; don’t just tell me what I want to hear. If Hebrews really does mean it’s too late for me, I want to know. I’m just scared and depressed. It’s ironic though that I would be feeling this way right after I’ve been taking my faith more seriously than ever before, and after I’ve been seeing myself gradually change and think/act differently than I ever used to. (That is one of the things that makes me wonder if this is Satan messing with me/trying to scare me.) Anyways, thanks again for reading, and I’m so sorry for writing a novel. God bless.
 
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paul1149

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“For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.” Hebrews 6:4-6 (KJV)
You've already repented, haven't you? You've already confessed, a la 1jn 1.9.

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” Hebrews 10:26-27 (KJV)
What it actually says:

For if we are sinning willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, -Heb 10:26

The verb sinning is a present participle, indicating ongoing action. While you are willingly sinning, you negate the power of Christ's salvation. Repent and turn to God, and you can find that power again.

God wants you back. He paid too high a price to let you go if you are serious about coming back.
 
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Billy93

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Hi- Thanks so much for your response.

You've already repented, haven't you? You've already confessed, a la 1jn 1.9.

Yes, I suppose so. I asked God for forgiveness, recognized that my sins were wrong and that I needed to “get right” with God, and have been actively reading my Bible/praying and asking his help to change me. My whole issue is wondering if my repentance is legitimate/if God *accepts* my repentance. Because if these verses somehow mean that getting back in fellowship with God is impossible for a person once he goes astray, then that would indicate that I could *think* I’m repenting all I want, and yet it actually wouldn’t matter/wouldn’t make a difference.

Basically, I’ve been worrying that these verses might imply that God “stops listening” to someone once they mess up and sin willfully - that no matter how much they may try to repent, it no longer matters because they have been shut off from him. :/

What it actually says:

For if we are sinning willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, -Heb 10:26

The verb sinning is a present participle, indicating ongoing action. While you are willingly sinning, you negate the power of Christ's salvation. Repent and turn to God, and you can find that power again.

Very interesting; I hadn’t read the verse translated that way but it makes sense. Thanks for that. I suppose the way I took it was to basically mean “If you willfully commit sins after having knowledge of the truth, Christ’s sacrifice no longer covers your sins.” As in, warning that anyone who goes back into sins willfully after accepting Christ, is doomed and will not be allowed to get back in God’s favor. Period. Even if they later want to come back.

God wants you back. He paid too high a price to let you go if you are serious about coming back.

Thanks so much. I did feel this way, that he was drawing me back to him. Both with the girlfriend in early 2019 - as I mentioned I thought that was him trying to get me to realize that I need to have *him* be at the center focus of my relationships if I ever truly want to be happy - and then also my desire to start reading the Bible/praying again in 2020. Maybe that was the Holy Spirit working in my life?

I mean, I guess it could be argued that I probably wouldn’t just “come back” to God on my own, unless he actually *wanted* me back… Right? If I was truly lost forever, then I probably wouldn’t have been feeling so guilty for my sins, probably wouldn’t have felt moved to ever go back to the Bible or pray or anything. ...Unless God is just torturing me with this, and I really am lost for eternity. But in some ways I don’t think he would allow someone to turn around and start seeking him again, if he wasn’t going to listen to them and if he had already doomed them to hell.

I do think it’s very interesting that these verses only showed up as a stumbling block for me after I got more serious about my faith; I admittedly could *definitely* see Satan using these passages to try and throw believers off-course/make them feel hopeless, so perhaps I have to keep that in mind… But at the same time, my OCD/anxiety sees verses like these and can’t help but assume the worst. Especially when I know I’ve messed up and am so guilty of sin. :/ Anyways, thanks a lot for the reply.
 
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NomNomPizza

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(Part 2)

Anyways, then 2020 came around. It’s funny; at the beginning of the year, I had actually just begun finally actively attending a church up there which I really liked. First time in ages. But then, COVID hit, and it basically destroyed my industry (performing arts). It made living in NYC virtually impossible due to the super-high rent, so I moved back down south to live with my parents and younger brother.

I’m not sure what exactly did it for me, but 2020 was a huge eye-opener and wake-up call for me. In summer/fall, I started praying much more than I can remember ever before, and started reading my Bible again. Since late July/early August, I have been reading the Bible & praying every day. What’s more, I’ve found myself *enjoying* reading the Bible - a lot! - something I don’t think I had ever really felt before. Some nights, I wanted to keep reading and reading. So much of what I’ve read has moved me deeply, and some nights I even found myself sobbing at passages and verses.

I’ve prayed on numerous occasions asking God to change me, to give me more faith, to mold me into who he wants me to be (to make me look more like his Son!), to help me be content with what I have, to help me find thankfulness/joy no matter what is going on, to reveal my sins and give me the strength to overcome them, to fill me with the Holy Spirit, to help me forgive others, to help me with my jealousy issues, to use me to accomplish his work, to make me into a good example for others, to give me the strength to be willing to give up anything and everything for him, and to give me the strength to “endure” no matter what.

Since July/August, I’ve found myself praying for people I don’t even like, wishing that God would bless them. I never would have thought to do that before. I’ve thanked God for things which I was never thankful for before. I find myself asking my mom if she needs help with anything (used to groan and grumble even when she would *ask* me to do something, whereas now I jump to help right away). I’ve stopped using curse words (got in a bad habit of cursing back in college/grad school). Etc.

I’m not sure I “feel” much different than I used to, and I am not sure how to tell whether one even has the Holy Spirit or is saved - but I have noticed myself behaving differently in some ways. And I can only assume this is because I’ve asked God to help me with this, because for so much of my life I have been a selfish, jealous person with too many problems to list. And I still have a ton of problems to work out; I’m *far* from perfect.

So I don’t list any of these things to brag, but rather out of confusion after having read the two Hebrews passages I mentioned in my post title:

“For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.” Hebrews 6:4-6 (KJV)

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” Hebrews 10:26-27 (KJV)

I was raised to believe Once Saved Always Saved, which is honestly probably part of the reason why I didn’t pay much mind to my sins over the years; it’s a lot easier to think “It’s okay if I sin, God forgives me anyways/I’ll just pray afterwards” than to actually try to change one’s life. Not sure where I stand now on OSAS (I don’t know what to think), but these passages in Hebrews absolutely terrify me. It’s ironic, because from August to December I read the entire New Testament (first time ever doing that), and back then I don’t recall Hebrews giving me such a hard time.

But the other day I read about these passages on some site, and they have terrorized me ever since. I’m not sure what to make of them, but taking them at face value would seem to indicate that someone like me is actually lost forever. Because of my willful sin. And yes, I know that some people will say “Well, all Christians still slip up on occasion and sin,” but it wasn’t like I just slipped up every now and then amidst trying to follow Christ. This was me actively and intentionally living in sin for a time, at least especially in the cases of the live-in girlfriends which were a day-in and day-out lifestyle choice. I had been raised to know this was wrong, and yet I did it anyways.

I tried to forget about God (except when arguing about his existence with the agnostic girl), because thinking about God would always bring me back to the truth of his Word, that what I was doing was wrong. It wasn’t that I didn’t believe in him anymore, and in fact I even still attended church with my family when I would come home to visit over the summer/holidays. It wasn’t like I was just a total unbeliever trying to put on a facade either; I found myself often agreeing with what the pastor said… I was just too caught-up in sin to see myself getting out of it anytime soon.

I guess the bottom-line is, I’m not sure what I am:

I don’t know if I first got saved in 2020, and wasn’t saved before?

I don’t know if I’ve been saved since I was a kid, and just had a period of backsliding and have “come home”?

I don’t know if I was saved as a kid, but my backsliding is what is referred to in Hebrews and thus I am no longer saved even though I know the truth - and so all I can spend the rest of my life doing is living in terrible fear of the knowledge that my fate is an eternity in hell?

I feel so confused. Of course it is possible that Satan is using these verses + my OCD/anxiety to scare me to death and try and get me off the path again, and that he is concerned by the fact that I’ve been reading my Bible/praying/trying to change for the better…

I could definitely imagine one of the following two scenarios being what is happening:

1. OSAS is false and salvation can be lost if one dies in their sins, but backsliders are welcome to repent and “come home”: thus, Satan would be trying to convince me that the Hebrews passage means backsliders *cannot* come home, and that therefore I might as well give up and go back to my self-seeking life like before (and in so doing, end up condemning myself to hell).

2. OSAS is true and salvation cannot be lost, but Satan is concerned that I am actively trying to grow fruit of the Spirit, and wants me to feel hopeless and nip it in the bud before I become a strong believer who might help lead others to Christ.

Either option would be one possible way Satan could be trying to deceive me with this. Plus, isn’t he called the Accuser, who accuses us of our sins and tries to make us feel that we are beyond saving? ...Then again, it’s possible that it’s not Satan, and that I really did just screw up beyond repair with my actions in college/grad school, and that there is no salvation available for me. I guess if that is the case, I would just have to accept that I’m lost and that I deserve hell (because I certainly do)… But I am still convinced that Christ is Lord and that the Bible is true, so even if I am doomed to hell I don’t see myself turning on God.

But haven’t lots of Christians over the years (maybe even in the Bible) backslid/turned away and made bad decisions for a time, only to come back to God later? Were these people therefore not real Christians? Was it all fake, an act, and Hebrews actually means that they are in hell now? Did they just *think* that they had overcome their sins and that God had accepted them back, but actually he hadn’t and they were deceived by Satan into thinking that?

Or is it impossible for Satan to even deceive in that way? I mean, yes he is a liar and is capable of major deception, but in some ways I would think that if someone appears to be turning from their sins and is living a more Christ-like life - and fruit of the Spirit can be seen - then I would think that’s an indication that they're legit, and that they really are saved? Idk, like I said I have OCD and so I could sit here all day with my mind going around in circles.

At the end of the day, I just want the truth, and that’s probably one reason I woke up in 2020. I felt (and still feel) so much evil in the world, and have been witnessing so much hypocrisy, so many double standards, etc., that it totally shattered any hope I had in mankind. This world is doomed and I am disgusted by it more and more on a daily basis. At this point I don’t care what happens; all I know is that I believe God is real and that Jesus Christ is his Son and that he came to die for our sins, and that he is the only way to heaven. I just hope I didn’t “miss my flight,” and that I’m still accepted there. I spent so many years not taking it seriously, then outright rebelling in sin for years, that it is so easy to think it’s too late for me.

Heck, I used to sometimes cringe at Christians who seemed to be “Jesus freaks” and who were very serious and impassioned about their faith. Up until I dated that girl in 2019, I actually *avoided* those people (primarily because I felt they would judge me for my past sins). Yet now I find myself praying to God asking to make *me* into one. And now, when it comes to dating, I am only looking for Christians who take their faith seriously.

I just need to know the truth about what is possible for me at this point. If you’ve read this far, 1. Thank you so much and 2. Please don’t hesitate to hit me with biblical truth; don’t just tell me what I want to hear. If Hebrews really does mean it’s too late for me, I want to know. I’m just scared and depressed. It’s ironic though that I would be feeling this way right after I’ve been taking my faith more seriously than ever before, and after I’ve been seeing myself gradually change and think/act differently than I ever used to. (That is one of the things that makes me wonder if this is Satan messing with me/trying to scare me.) Anyways, thanks again for reading, and I’m so sorry for writing a novel. God bless.

ok so I'll diagnose you as doctor would diagnose patient nothing personall or anything
1)As Man there is no way to stop the seek for sex unless you literally were given the privilage of celibate from God , you will always have sex drive and it's better to do it with the Christian girl , maybe marry her in future than going back to these gay stuff.
2) There is no difference in "level" of sin like if u told lie you are as guilty as if you killed somebody so your mind might be focused too much on that one sin while you probably do 50 more daily just like this one and they aren't anyhow lower value or lesser ones.
3) Salvation is once for all , by Christ alone and you obtain it as gift if you believe him
4)Most important probably is that you base your experience with God on your actions and feelings rather than facts
Going to church doesn't make one Christian , there were plenty atheists who grow up in Church
What makes one Christian is if he believes the gospel , defined by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 , according to Scriptures means that he fulfilled prophecy like Isaiah 53 ,written hunderds years before and fulfilled by Jesus.
Your actions have nothing to do with it like , it doesn't matter if you feel good/ bad / alone / lost / fine /suffering or anything else , fact is that Christ did it and it's all that matters , God does not stop exist suddenly because u don't feel like he is not around you unless you believe some other god and hide it in some sort of box and take it out when u need it and hide when u don't.
Thats not the God of the Bible , the God of the Bible is powerfull being which is outside of time and don't need you or me in any way , giving us a way to get back to him thru his son , it has nothing to do with who you are or what u did before , if u want you can get back and have relationship with him.
5) About Satan , even if he can't alredy hurt your salvation , he can still deceive you into thinking you're not saved so you become useless because person who is not sure if he/she is saved is for sure not leading others to Christ , so instead of maybe 30 more Christians there will be no more cuz you did not do your job because you got deceived. Just an example.
6)Book of Hebrews has nothing to do with losing salvation , it was written to Jews who became Christians but wanted to go back to doing Sacrifices once they saw that christians were being persecuted.

When it says stuff like Hebrews 6:4-6
it means it is not possible once u get saved to get unsaved and repent towards opposite things , like you just came back ask questions even tho you took detour thru doing all these sins you came back because it is not possible to not go back into faith after a time once u got saved , you felt urge to come seek God and needed questions answered.
Unbeliever would never do that in first place.
 
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aiki

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I was raised in a Christian family, got to college/grad school and entered a very sinful lifestyle. Last year I started changing and taking my faith way more seriously than ever before. Does Hebrews say it’s too late for me to repent? Am I doomed to hell? :/

No. Hebrews doesn't say this.

Some backstory about me: At the time of writing this, I’m a 27-year-old guy. Growing up, I was raised in a Christian (Baptist) family, and we went to church every week. I “asked the Lord Jesus into my heart”/“got saved” sometime in elementary school; don’t remember the exact year but I remember praying privately and then going and telling my family about it later. For most of middle/high school I outwardly probably seemed a good Christian boy (and I attended a Christian private school), but I didn’t much enjoy going to church, and I got involved in watching inappropriate contentography (including some gay inappropriate content - so I had some struggles with orientation). And then I wound up fooling around some sexually with my high school girlfriend - though she was a Christian too and we both wanted to save “actual sex” for marriage, so we somehow managed to not go all-the-way in our 3-year relationship.

Does this sound like the living of a saved person to you? How does it stack up against the criteria the Bible sets out as proof-positive of a genuinely born-again life?

I also began to struggle with OCD/anxiety (which I still deal with some and is perhaps relevant to my freaking out?), and was convinced at the time that my obsessive thoughts were some sort of demonic attack.

If there is any demonic involvement, it is probably to massage whatever natural anxiety you have into something obsessive and destructive. Sin and fear go together, by the way.

Aside from saying evening prayers every night with my parents when I was a little kid, and silently praying along when my dad would bless the food during family dinnertime all my life, I really didn’t pray all that much. Didn’t regularly read my Bible either. Basically, I don’t think I really had a whole lot going on spiritually. And that’s probably why it all came tumbling down when I went away to college up north, out-of-state.

Yup. Very common event, the "tumbling down at college." Leaving home and being on your own entirely has a way of clarifying where you're really at with God.

I did feel guilty for doing it, and knew there was no putting that genie back in the bottle - I felt like I was lost and there was no hope for me anymore, and that it didn’t really matter anymore what I did since I had messed up so badly. This was the major reason I stopped going to church at all.

Now here you may have had a bit of demonic encouragement. It's the specialty of the demonic to move us away from God by such bad reasoning. It's interesting we never follow this line of thinking with, say, poison, though sin is just as dangerous and lethal to us as any poison. We don't say, "Oh, well, just took some arsenic. Might as well take some more." But we do say, "Whoops. That was really wicked what I just did. Oh, well, I guess I'll just go crazy into sin, then." I suppose it's because we don't really believe God when He says that our sin always produces death (Romans 6:23; James 1:15), even though we can see people all around us destroyed by sin.

So I downloaded a gay hookup app, and impulsively wound up walking to a local hotel at 2am one night to fool around sexually with a man. (Looking back, that was obviously extremely dangerous.)

And disgusting. How deep into depravity sin can take us! Yikes!

But then I got to thinking, and wondered if maybe this was God trying to bring me back to him - showing me the joy that I could have if only I would give myself to him, and make *him* the focus of my relationships (and my life!). Because up to that point, he was nowhere to be found in my relationships. While I never outright denied the faith, I had pushed him out of my life time and time again, in as many ways possible.

Young man, its time to face facts: You were no child of God. Not with a story such as you've told describing your life thus far.

I’m not sure what exactly did it for me, but 2020 was a huge eye-opener and wake-up call for me. In summer/fall, I started praying much more than I can remember ever before, and started reading my Bible again. Since late July/early August, I have been reading the Bible & praying every day. What’s more, I’ve found myself *enjoying* reading the Bible - a lot! - something I don’t think I had ever really felt before. Some nights, I wanted to keep reading and reading. So much of what I’ve read has moved me deeply, and some nights I even found myself sobbing at passages and verses.

Tears are only significant if they accompany a changed life.

Have you repented of your self-will, your wicked rebellion against God, and your sin? Have you confessed to God the vileness of your life and determined by His grace to forever forsake it? Have you trusted in Christ and submitted your life to him as your Lord? If not, your tears fall from the eyes of an enemy of God, standing under His wrathful judgment.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Romans 2:5-11
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,


I’ve prayed on numerous occasions asking God to change me, to give me more faith, to mold me into who he wants me to be (to make me look more like his Son!), to help me be content with what I have, to help me find thankfulness/joy no matter what is going on, to reveal my sins and give me the strength to overcome them, to fill me with the Holy Spirit, to help me forgive others, to help me with my jealousy issues, to use me to accomplish his work, to make me into a good example for others, to give me the strength to be willing to give up anything and everything for him, and to give me the strength to “endure” no matter what.

But have you asked God to cleanse you of your sin (1 John 1:9)? Have you yielded yourself to His will and way (Romans 6:13), His "servant of righteousness" (Romans 6:22), a "living sacrifice" to do with as He pleases (Romans 12:1)? God cannot work in a life not given over to Him. He will not transform a life not trusting in Christ as Saviour and yielded to him as Lord (Romans 10:9-10). Is this you?

Isaiah 59:1-2
1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not so short That it cannot save; Nor is His ear so dull That it cannot hear.
2 But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.


Psalm 66:18
18 If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear;


James 4:7-10
7 Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
9 Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom.
10 Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.


Since July/August, I’ve found myself praying for people I don’t even like, wishing that God would bless them. I never would have thought to do that before. I’ve thanked God for things which I was never thankful for before. I find myself asking my mom if she needs help with anything (used to groan and grumble even when she would *ask* me to do something, whereas now I jump to help right away). I’ve stopped using curse words (got in a bad habit of cursing back in college/grad school). Etc.

Interesting.

I’m not sure I “feel” much different than I used to, and I am not sure how to tell whether one even has the Holy Spirit or is saved - but I have noticed myself behaving differently in some ways. And I can only assume this is because I’ve asked God to help me with this, because for so much of my life I have been a selfish, jealous person with too many problems to list. And I still have a ton of problems to work out; I’m *far* from perfect.

We are all of us "works in progress." We all struggle with sin. Welcome to the club. It's the ones not struggling with sin who need to worry.

If the Spirit is within you, the Bible says several things will indicate that this is so:

- He convicts of sin. (John 16:8)
- He illuminates our minds to God's truth. (Luke 12:12; John 14:26; John 16:13)
- He comforts and helps. (John 14:16)
- He enables the believer's obedience. (Acts 4:7-8; Romans 8:13; Romans 15:13, 19; Philippians 2:13)
- He produces in the believer the character of Christ. (Galatians 5:22, 23)
- He glorifies God within the mind and heart of the believer. (John 16:14)

The Bible also tells us that a love for the brethren is a sure sign of having "passed from death unto life." (1 John 3:14)

A hunger for the word of God also marks a genuine believer. (Jeremiah 15:16; Psalms 19:7-11; Matthew 4:4)

So? What's the verdict? Do you see these signs of genuine salvation in you?

I was raised to believe Once Saved Always Saved, which is honestly probably part of the reason why I didn’t pay much mind to my sins over the years; it’s a lot easier to think “It’s okay if I sin, God forgives me anyways/I’ll just pray afterwards” than to actually try to change one’s life.

This is a faulty conclusion some may come to who misunderstand OSAS. A proper understanding would have informed you of the signs of genuine salvation, by which you could have judged the correctness of your belief that you were actually saved (which, clearly, you weren't).

But the other day I read about these passages on some site, and they have terrorized me ever since. I’m not sure what to make of them, but taking them at face value would seem to indicate that someone like me is actually lost forever.

But were you actually saved? Your story until recently indicates you weren't.

In any case, neither passage indicates a truly saved person can lose their salvation. That's a saved-and-lost construction put upon the passages.

I don’t know if I first got saved in 2020, and wasn’t saved before?

That seems like the most reasonable view to take - though, are you actually saved now? Does the Spirit bear witness with your spirit that you are a child of God? He does this by acting in your life in the way I laid out from Scripture that He will (see above).

I feel so confused. Of course it is possible that Satan is using these verses + my OCD/anxiety to scare me to death and try and get me off the path again, and that he is concerned by the fact that I’ve been reading my Bible/praying/trying to change for the better…

It's very likely.

1. OSAS is false and salvation can be lost if one dies in their sins, but backsliders are welcome to repent and “come home”: thus, Satan would be trying to convince me that the Hebrews passage means backsliders *cannot* come home, and that therefore I might as well give up and go back to my self-seeking life like before (and in so doing, end up condemning myself to hell).

When you properly understand the doctrine of justification, you have to rule out "OSAS is false" as an option. And anyway, Saved-and-Lost leads inevitably to works-salvation, earning your way into heaven, which the Bible is absolutely clear is impossible. (Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8-9)

Either option would be one possible way Satan could be trying to deceive me with this. Plus, isn’t he called the Accuser, who accuses us of our sins and tries to make us feel that we are beyond saving? ...Then again, it’s possible that it’s not Satan, and that I really did just screw up beyond repair with my actions in college/grad school, and that there is no salvation available for me. I guess if that is the case, I would just have to accept that I’m lost and that I deserve hell (because I certainly do)… But I am still convinced that Christ is Lord and that the Bible is true, so even if I am doomed to hell I don’t see myself turning on God.

This doesn't really fit the person described in Hebrews 6:4-6 does it? Nope. It doesn't. So, why are you sweating about it?

At this point I don’t care what happens; all I know is that I believe God is real and that Jesus Christ is his Son and that he came to die for our sins, and that he is the only way to heaven. I just hope I didn’t “miss my flight,” and that I’m still accepted there. I spent so many years not taking it seriously, then outright rebelling in sin for years, that it is so easy to think it’s too late for me.

You believe what you've stated here, but is it a belief that anticipates a changed life? Is it a belief that expects to be changed by what is believed? Is it a belief that will motivate corresponding action? This is a "saving faith" - as opposed to just intellectual agreement that has no intention of acting seriously upon what is believed.

It is only "too late" when you have died.
 
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Billy93

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Does this sound like the living of a saved person to you? How does it stack up against the criteria the Bible sets out as proof-positive of a genuinely born-again life?

No, I guess it doesn't. And you’re right, the Bible says to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith; my life wasn’t really bearing fruits of the Spirit and I was living in multiple sins.

If there is any demonic involvement, it is probably to massage whatever natural anxiety you have into something obsessive and destructive. Sin and fear go together, by the way.

Very interesting; hadn’t really thought of that.

Yup. Very common event, the "tumbling down at college." Leaving home and being on your own entirely has a way of clarifying where you're really at with God.

Yep, that’s exactly what happened. The scary thing is, I didn’t really mind all that much. I was content just sort of casting God aside. Which now, I find terrifying that I was ever like that.

Now here you may have had a bit of demonic encouragement. It's the specialty of the demonic to move us away from God by such bad reasoning. It's interesting we never follow this line of thinking with, say, poison, though sin is just as dangerous and lethal to us as any poison. We don't say, "Oh, well, just took some arsenic. Might as well take some more." But we do say, "Whoops. That was really wicked what I just did. Oh, well, I guess I'll just go crazy into sin, then." I suppose it's because we don't really believe God when He says that our sin always produces death (Romans 6:23; James 1:15), even though we can see people all around us destroyed by sin.

Great point! And the analogy is spot-on. You’re right, I wouldn’t be surprised if that was a bit of demonic encouragement to try and get me down a path of more and more sin. I felt hopeless and like a totally lost cause - and I don’t think *God* would have wanted me to feel that way.

And disgusting. How deep into depravity sin can take us! Yikes!

Yep, it was awful. I was disgusted with myself, but kept messing up again and again. I wasn’t able to break free.

Young man, its time to face facts: You were no child of God. Not with a story such as you've told describing your life thus far.

This is what I’ve sort of come to think as well. 2019 (the Christian girlfriend) was the first time in ages that I had even spent a significant amount of time thinking about God. And then after the break-up, I fell back into sin and grew distant from God again. Probably because my “faith” was more of an intellectual exercise and I hadn’t actually sought to change my life. Still, I’m thankful for her because it was the first thing that happened that really made an “Aha!” alarm bell go off in my brain. All those relationships over the years with non-Christians (and they were all miserable and unfulfilling experiences, overall), and then yet this short period of time showed me what it could be like to be with a Christian woman… and it was unlike any of the others. That helped me realize I was missing something.

Tears are only significant if they accompany a changed life.

Well, of course. As I said, I’ve been changing it.

Have you repented of your self-will, your wicked rebellion against God, and your sin? Have you confessed to God the vileness of your life and determined by His grace to forever forsake it? Have you trusted in Christ and submitted your life to him as your Lord? If not, your tears fall from the eyes of an enemy of God, standing under His wrathful judgment.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Romans 2:5-11
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

I think so? I’ve asked for forgiveness on many occasions, have sobbed over my sin, have said Christ is Lord, have asked God to change me, etc.. Sorry, but what you wrote there comes across as rather angry…? Or was that because it was written before reading what I said later on about how I was changing/praying to change? "If not, your tears fall from the eyes of an enemy of God, standing under His wrathful judgment.” I mean, the whole point of my post was obviously that I don’t want to be an enemy of God… Just feels a bit like you’re attacking me even after I’ve already said that what I did was clearly wrong. What more do you want?

But have you asked God to cleanse you of your sin (1 John 1:9)? Have you yielded yourself to His will and way (Romans 6:13), His "servant of righteousness" (Romans 6:22), a "living sacrifice" to do with as He pleases (Romans 12:1)? God cannot work in a life not given over to Him. He will not transform a life not trusting in Christ as Saviour and yielded to him as Lord (Romans 10:9-10). Is this you?

Isaiah 59:1-2
1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not so short That it cannot save; Nor is His ear so dull That it cannot hear.
2 But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.


Psalm 66:18
18 If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear;


James 4:7-10
7 Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
9 Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom.
10 Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.

Yes, I have asked him to cleanse me of my sin, to reveal all my sins to me so that I might stop them, to work in my life and mold me according to what he wants me to be, to give me such faith that I would be willing to do anything and everything and die for him if need be. I know that I am nothing and that I am totally undeserving of his gift of salvation, and I know that I have messed up big-time. I never want to live a life of sin like that ever again. It only brought me misery, and I’ve come to realize it is a form of unbelief - since if I truly believe Jesus is who he says he is, and that I claim he is my savior, then that means I should follow what he says and live in a way which shows reverence and respect for him and honors (and shows thankfulness for) his sacrifice on the cross. I was living in a way that totally took for granted his sacrifice - but I would think/hope that if I truly understood and accepted the gravity of his sacrifice, that I would take it seriously and live my life thankful to him for it. I guess this goes back to the idea that I likely wasn’t actually saved before(?).

We are all of us "works in progress." We all struggle with sin. Welcome to the club. It's the ones not struggling with sin who need to worry.

Great point. I think it’s hopefully a good sign that I am concerned about my sin and want to be free of it?

If the Spirit is within you, the Bible says several things will indicate that this is so:

- He convicts of sin. (John 16:8)
- He illuminates our minds to God's truth. (Luke 12:12; John 14:26; John 16:13)
- He comforts and helps. (John 14:16)
- He enables the believer's obedience. (Acts 4:7-8; Romans 8:13; Romans 15:13, 19; Philippians 2:13)
- He produces in the believer the character of Christ. (Galatians 5:22, 23)
- He glorifies God within the mind and heart of the believer. (John 16:14)

The Bible also tells us that a love for the brethren is a sure sign of having "passed from death unto life." (1 John 3:14)

A hunger for the word of God also marks a genuine believer. (Jeremiah 15:16; Psalms 19:7-11; Matthew 4:4)

So? What's the verdict? Do you see these signs of genuine salvation in you?

I’m a work in progress, but I think I do. I don’t see those signs in me pre-2020, though. For instance, before 2020 I NEVER really enjoyed reading the Bible. I never used to feel bad about some of the things that I feel bad about now.

This is a faulty conclusion some may come to who misunderstand OSAS. A proper understanding would have informed you of the signs of genuine salvation, by which you could have judged the correctness of your belief that you were actually saved (which, clearly, you weren't).

This makes a lot of sense.

But were you actually saved? Your story until recently indicates you weren't.

In any case, neither passage indicates a truly saved person can lose their salvation. That's a saved-and-lost construction put upon the passages.

I guess I’ve been primarily freaking out due to the idea that I had been saved since I was a kid. But you’re right, I guess a look at my lifestyle/fruit of the Spirit (lack thereof) would indicate an unsaved person. What do you mean about the saved-and-lost construction? Would love to learn more what you mean as far as a correct interpretation of those passages.

That seems like the most reasonable view to take - though, are you actually saved now? Does the Spirit bear witness with your spirit that you are a child of God? He does this by acting in your life in the way I laid out from Scripture that He will (see above).

I’m not sure! I certainly think I can see God working in my life significantly more than ever before. I keep asking him to change me and to continuously work in me to make me look more like his Son and less like myself.

When you properly understand the doctrine of justification, you have to rule out "OSAS is false" as an option. And anyway, Saved-and-Lost leads inevitably to works-salvation, earning your way into heaven, which the Bible is absolutely clear is impossible. (Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8-9)

That’s the main issue I’ve got with “OSAS is false,” admittedly; I can see how it could lead to a works-based mindset, constantly having to do works to “prove” that I’m saved when I believe it’s actually supposed to be that works are a natural byproduct of the Holy Spirit working in one’s life, correct? I can see how one could take this to a very bad place if they become obsessed with works and thinking that works are what will get them to heaven. So, yeah. I need to do more reading/thinking/praying about that.

This doesn't really fit the person described in Hebrews 6:4-6 does it? Nope. It doesn't. So, why are you sweating about it?

Good point. I’m not sure. Again, I think a lot of my fear hinges on this idea that I was already saved, and then on the idea that the passage would be referring to me. But there are also verses in which it says that God draws people to him, and that people who seek him will find him. I suppose then that someone who seeks God and seeks forgiveness and is trying to change their life, doesn’t really fit the passage(?).

You believe what you've stated here, but is it a belief that anticipates a changed life? Is it a belief that expects to be changed by what is believed? Is it a belief that will motivate corresponding action? This is a "saving faith" - as opposed to just intellectual agreement that has no intention of acting seriously upon what is believed.

I keep asking God to change me, so I think so(?). I want my life to reflect Christ; I’ve told him that I am done doing things my way and that I want him to do with me what he will and use me for good, and that I am open to having my life changed. Honestly, my years living a sinful lifestyle up in NY made me feel extremely empty. They were not fulfilling, no matter where I turned. I’ve had enough of that garbage.

It is only "too late" when you have died.

I really hope this is the case. Lastly, thank you so much for taking the time to read my posts; I knew they were long but I really appreciate it, and I also really appreciate you taking the time to respond. Especially for the verses you provided.
 
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ok so I'll diagnose you as doctor would diagnose patient nothing personall or anything
1)As Man there is no way to stop the seek for sex unless you literally were given the privilage of celibate from God , you will always have sex drive and it's better to do it with the Christian girl , maybe marry her in future than going back to these gay stuff.
2) There is no difference in "level" of sin like if u told lie you are as guilty as if you killed somebody so your mind might be focused too much on that one sin while you probably do 50 more daily just like this one and they aren't anyhow lower value or lesser ones.
3) Salvation is once for all , by Christ alone and you obtain it as gift if you believe him
4)Most important probably is that you base your experience with God on your actions and feelings rather than facts
Going to church doesn't make one Christian , there were plenty atheists who grow up in Church
What makes one Christian is if he believes the gospel , defined by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 , according to Scriptures means that he fulfilled prophecy like Isaiah 53 ,written hunderds years before and fulfilled by Jesus.
Your actions have nothing to do with it like , it doesn't matter if you feel good/ bad / alone / lost / fine /suffering or anything else , fact is that Christ did it and it's all that matters , God does not stop exist suddenly because u don't feel like he is not around you unless you believe some other god and hide it in some sort of box and take it out when u need it and hide when u don't.
Thats not the God of the Bible , the God of the Bible is powerfull being which is outside of time and don't need you or me in any way , giving us a way to get back to him thru his son , it has nothing to do with who you are or what u did before , if u want you can get back and have relationship with him.
5) About Satan , even if he can't alredy hurt your salvation , he can still deceive you into thinking you're not saved so you become useless because person who is not sure if he/she is saved is for sure not leading others to Christ , so instead of maybe 30 more Christians there will be no more cuz you did not do your job because you got deceived. Just an example.
6)Book of Hebrews has nothing to do with losing salvation , it was written to Jews who became Christians but wanted to go back to doing Sacrifices once they saw that christians were being persecuted.

When it says stuff like Hebrews 6:4-6
it means it is not possible once u get saved to get unsaved and repent towards opposite things , like you just came back ask questions even tho you took detour thru doing all these sins you came back because it is not possible to not go back into faith after a time once u got saved , you felt urge to come seek God and needed questions answered.
Unbeliever would never do that in first place.

Thanks so much for your response. I especially appreciate the point you made about “levels of sin.” You’re right; I have been sort of unconsciously ranking sins, and in doing so I have probably overlooked others which were equally bad. Also, great point about how even atheists have grown up in church. I guess at this point I am thinking I probably wasn’t even actually saved until 2020 (if I even was then/am now).

I *thought* I “believed,” but honestly virtually *nothing* in my life actually reflected a belief in Christ/that he was my Lord. Basically, I had little to no fruits of the Spirit, and it became especially evident when I went off to college and so easily fell into sin. I don’t think I really had much of a personal relationship with God going on. I always assumed that because I said some prayer back when I was a kid, that I was actually saved. But I guess if I had actually been saved, then my life would have reflected it…?

I think/hope that the changes I’ve made over the last half year are a sign that God is working in my life and that he wants me to draw close to him. But passages like those in Hebrews are pretty terrifying. What do you mean about “repent towards opposite things,” though? Sorry, not sure I understood that part. Thanks again.
 
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Sketcher

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If you're asking this question, then no it's not too late for you.

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. " - John 6:37

When you're feeling the tiniest of tugs back to walking with Jesus, go with it. If you've been resisting, stop resisting. He has promised to receive you.
 
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Billy93

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If you're asking this question, then no it's not too late for you.

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. " - John 6:37

When you're feeling the tiniest of tugs back to walking with Jesus, go with it. If you've been resisting, stop resisting. He has promised to receive you.

Thank you so much. And wow, what a verse - going to save that one for later reference for when I’m feeling down. Thanks.
 
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NomNomPizza

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Thanks so much for your response. I especially appreciate the point you made about “levels of sin.” You’re right; I have been sort of unconsciously ranking sins, and in doing so I have probably overlooked others which were equally bad. Also, great point about how even atheists have grown up in church. I guess at this point I am thinking I probably wasn’t even actually saved until 2020 (if I even was then/am now).

I *thought* I “believed,” but honestly virtually *nothing* in my life actually reflected a belief in Christ/that he was my Lord. Basically, I had little to no fruits of the Spirit, and it became especially evident when I went off to college and so easily fell into sin. I don’t think I really had much of a personal relationship with God going on. I always assumed that because I said some prayer back when I was a kid, that I was actually saved. But I guess if I had actually been saved, then my life would have reflected it…?

I think/hope that the changes I’ve made over the last half year are a sign that God is working in my life and that he wants me to draw close to him. But passages like those in Hebrews are pretty terrifying. What do you mean about “repent towards opposite things,” though? Sorry, not sure I understood that part. Thanks again.

so Repentance is change of mind , mostly used by Christians as a word describing changing the way you think about yourself world and God , the time you realised that you were sinner and needed saviour is the time you repented and changed your mind. Some people need to go through some devastating things like cancer or other ilness to even stop for a sec in thier busy life and rethink stuff. It's not the thinking about stuff you did in your life but the fact that you realised that you messed up is the repentance towards God.

It's impossible for Christian who got saved to repent the other way around , to forget that God exists and forget that he/she is Christian , they might lie the themselves but sooner or later they will be dragged back by Spirit to God in one form or another so they can't escape it.
Thats why we are slaves to God , we changed from being slaves to sin to being slaves to God.

edit. I also wanted to add this verse Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

To really understand it we need to really look into separate words and closely define them because it's often fastly read thru and people miss it.

Grace - something you did not deserve
saved - rescued
thru faith - by believing
not of yourselves - you have nothing to do with obtaining it
gift - something obtained without payment , given to somebody willingly
not of works - you can't work for it in any way
lest any man should boast - you can't be proud because you obtained it
 
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aiki

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I felt hopeless and like a totally lost cause - and I don’t think *God* would have wanted me to feel that way.

Amen. He wouldn't. The God who died for you when you were His enemy, when you were bound under the power of the World, the Flesh and the devil, when you were mired in sin, is NOT the sort of God who gives up on wicked people. These are the only sort of people He has to deal with, after all.

Yep, it was awful. I was disgusted with myself, but kept messing up again and again. I wasn’t able to break free.

And it is this very horrible bondage that God uses to drive us to Himself where the power to truly break free is found.

All those relationships over the years with non-Christians (and they were all miserable and unfulfilling experiences, overall), and then yet this short period of time showed me what it could be like to be with a Christian woman…

Well, maybe it wasn't so much what you realized you could have with a seriously Christian woman that was attractive, but that in her, you saw something of Christ, the Lover of your soul. It would be just like the devil to get you to focus on the pleasure of being with a Christian woman serious about her faith so that you lose sight of the much greater joy of knowing the One for whom she was living her life.

I think so? I’ve asked for forgiveness on many occasions, have sobbed over my sin, have said Christ is Lord, have asked God to change me, etc.. Sorry, but what you wrote there comes across as rather angry…?

There's no anger - except, perhaps, at sin. We live in a world that takes sin far, far too lightly. I have been guilty of doing so myself. But the deeper I go with God, the more the destructiveness of sin, the terrible bondage it works upon people, driving them more and more into death and darkness, is evident and angers me.

No one can walk rightly, though, until they see the sin they embrace and enjoy for the horrendously evil thing it is. So, I don't respond to confessed sin with a "You poor baby! It's okay. We all screw up." I want to reinforce the awfulness of sin, not soften it, in the mind of the one who has come to a clearer sense of the true wickedness of their sin. My apologies if this came off as being angry with you personally.

"If not, your tears fall from the eyes of an enemy of God, standing under His wrathful judgment.” I mean, the whole point of my post was obviously that I don’t want to be an enemy of God… Just feels a bit like you’re attacking me even after I’ve already said that what I did was clearly wrong. What more do you want?

Friend, I have seen many tears shed by Christians over the years whose lives remain unchanged by their high emotion. I think it is a demonic tactic to lure people into thinking that a momentary weeping over their sin is a sign something truly spiritual has happened. At times, this is so. But, many times - perhaps more often than not - tears hide a heart not yet broken before God, in secret rebellion toward Him still.

In light of this, my aim was not to attack you, but to penetrate through the emotion that often makes us feel we are doing something serious with God, when, in fact, we aren't.



Yes, I have asked him to cleanse me of my sin, to reveal all my sins to me so that I might stop them, to work in my life and mold me according to what he wants me to be, to give me such faith that I would be willing to do anything and everything and die for him if need be. I know that I am nothing and that I am totally undeserving of his gift of salvation, and I know that I have messed up big-time. I never want to live a life of sin like that ever again.

Praise God!

I was living in a way that totally took for granted his sacrifice - but I would think/hope that if I truly understood and accepted the gravity of his sacrifice, that I would take it seriously and live my life thankful to him for it. I guess this goes back to the idea that I likely wasn’t actually saved before(?).

Gratefulness is a place to start. But what God wants from you is more than just gratefulness. He wants your love. The First and Great Commandment - the one that comes before all others and is the ground out of which all of our Christian living is to grow - is to love God with all of your being. (Matthew 22:36-38) Do you love Him? Or are you merely grateful and feel a sense of obligation toward Him?

Only love is powerful enough to move you along the journey with God that is the Christian life. Fear, duty, obligation, religious piety and pride - none of these is as powerful as the love-motive in walking with God and none of them God accepts as a basis for your obedience to Him. (See 1 Corinthians 13:1-3) Do you love Him?

I think it’s hopefully a good sign that I am concerned about my sin and want to be free of it?

It is a very good sign. Those in whom God is not at work do not worry about sin.

I guess I’ve been primarily freaking out due to the idea that I had been saved since I was a kid. But you’re right, I guess a look at my lifestyle/fruit of the Spirit (lack thereof) would indicate an unsaved person.

That seems pretty plain to me. Something has definitely changed, though, hasn't it? There appears to be life now that wasn't there in you before.

What do you mean about the saved-and-lost construction? Would love to learn more what you mean as far as a correct interpretation of those passages.

Hmmm...discussing this issue might derail your thread considerably. Making comments in defense of OSAS will attract the usual SAL (saved-and-lost) folk to your thread who will resort to their typical cut-and-paste, wall-o-text stuff that they usually do. Though we all know what the other thinks at this point, the same "castles" of belief are erected, fortifications raised, and catapults of well-rehearsed perspective lob out points of view that simply bounce off the walls of an opponents "castle." There's a lot of heat, usually, but very little light. I'm not sure I want to endure this process again and I'm not sure you'd enjoy it or be helped by it, either. I can send you via PM some material on the passages, if you'd like.

I’m not sure! I certainly think I can see God working in my life significantly more than ever before. I keep asking him to change me and to continuously work in me to make me look more like his Son and less like myself.

Your relationship with God is definitely a process. It develops over time, growing broader and deeper in its various aspects. The shape of your life with God now will not be the shape it will have ten years down the road. If there is one certainty in the Christian life, it is that change happens constantly as one becomes increasingly like Jesus by the work of the Spirit. (Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 3:18) Inasmuch as you're just getting started, there won't be quite as much built into your life yet by God.

That’s the main issue I’ve got with “OSAS is false,” admittedly; I can see how it could lead to a works-based mindset, constantly having to do works to “prove” that I’m saved when I believe it’s actually supposed to be that works are a natural byproduct of the Holy Spirit working in one’s life, correct?

Exactly. And the SAL crowd go through incredible scriptural gymnastics to hide and/or deny what you've pointed out here.

I can see how one could take this to a very bad place if they become obsessed with works and thinking that works are what will get them to heaven. So, yeah. I need to do more reading/thinking/praying about that.

Sounds to me like you've got the bare bones of it already in hand. A big part of the problem for the SAL crowd is their conflation of inevitability with necessity. They take the fact that good works are inevitable to a healthy spiritual life and extend it to mean that good works are therefore necessary to having a spiritual life. But an apple tree must be an apple tree in order to bear apples; it doesn't become an apple tree only when it bears apples, right? A boat is a boat whether it is floating on the surface of a lake or sitting with a hole in its side at the bottom of the lake. It should be floating, typically, as boats do, but even if it doesn't, it remains a boat. I possess my lawnmower even if I never use it to cut the grass and cannot cut my grass with it unless I first possess it. And so on.

I suppose then that someone who seeks God and seeks forgiveness and is trying to change their life, doesn’t really fit the passage(?).

Yup. Right.

I keep asking God to change me, so I think so(?). I want my life to reflect Christ; I’ve told him that I am done doing things my way and that I want him to do with me what he will and use me for good, and that I am open to having my life changed. Honestly, my years living a sinful lifestyle up in NY made me feel extremely empty. They were not fulfilling, no matter where I turned. I’ve had enough of that garbage.

Preach it!

I really hope this is the case. Lastly, thank you so much for taking the time to read my posts; I knew they were long but I really appreciate it, and I also really appreciate you taking the time to respond. Especially for the verses you provided.

:ok:
 
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Billy93

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so Repentance is change of mind , mostly used by Christians as a word describing changing the way you think about yourself world and God , the time you realised that you were sinner and needed saviour is the time you repented and changed your mind. Some people need to go through some devastating things like cancer or other ilness to even stop for a sec in thier busy life and rethink stuff. It's not the thinking about stuff you did in your life but the fact that you realised that you messed up is the repentance towards God.

It's impossible for Christian who got saved to repent the other way around , to forget that God exists and forget that he/she is Christian , they might lie the themselves but sooner or later they will be dragged back by Spirit to God in one form or another so they can't escape it.
Thats why we are slaves to God , we changed from being slaves to sin to being slaves to God.

edit. I also wanted to add this verse Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

To really understand it we need to really look into separate words and closely define them because it's often fastly read thru and people miss it.

Grace - something you did not deserve
saved - rescued
thru faith - by believing
not of yourselves - you have nothing to do with obtaining it
gift - something obtained without payment , given to somebody willingly
not of works - you can't work for it in any way
lest any man should boast - you can't be proud because you obtained it

Very interesting, thanks. So I guess what I’m wondering is, do you think that I wasn’t a real Christian until sometime last year, when I started getting serious about God and reading my Bible and praying? I know there was a time when I was very young that I obviously had God more on my mind and prayed to “get saved” - but as another poster here pointed out, at least from what I wrote it doesn’t appear that I fit the criteria of a believer back then. Because from my actions (falling into various sinful lifestyles) it’s pretty clear I wasn't exactly growing fruit of the Spirit - even *before* I went off to college and *really* messed up bad.

I guess what I’m trying to get at based on your comment is, do you think that I never really had “gotten saved”/been sealed with the Holy Spirit before when I was younger? Or do you think I *did* get saved, when I prayed asking for forgiveness of my sins and accepting Jesus’ sacrifice and believing that he was the Son of God and the only salvation - and that the past x number of years has been me just going wildly astray while the Holy Spirit has been hoping to get me to take my faith seriously? The occasions when I *did* feel bad for my sins (and unfortunately tried to fight the bad feeling) - was that just normal human conscience, or was that the Holy Spirit trying to reach me? Then again, if that were the case, I wonder if the Holy Spirit would have left/given up on me by now, after *years* of me not listening... In which case I would now be like these Hebrews passages talk about - unable to be saved…

The thing is though, while yes I agree that my actions for most of my time thus far as a “Christian” were horrible and don’t line up with how a Christian is supposed to act - if you had asked me at any point during that time, I would have told you that I believed. But maybe the other poster is right, and I wasn’t saved back when I was young, and anything regarding Christianity was just head knowledge & an intellectual exercise for me. I can definitely see why someone would think I wasn’t really a born-again Christian before, and I myself am starting to think the same thing. I guess either way, what matters most is that I’m seeking a relationship with God *now* - but it would be nice for me to figure out really what the heck happened during my past years as a “Christian.” I just feel like I should be able to pinpoint when I “got saved” (if I even *have* been saved - I hope so…), and it bothers me to be so unsure. Thanks again.
 
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NomNomPizza

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Very interesting, thanks. So I guess what I’m wondering is, do you think that I wasn’t a real Christian until sometime last year, when I started getting serious about God and reading my Bible and praying? I know there was a time when I was very young that I obviously had God more on my mind and prayed to “get saved” - but as another poster here pointed out, at least from what I wrote it doesn’t appear that I fit the criteria of a believer back then. Because from my actions (falling into various sinful lifestyles) it’s pretty clear I wasn't exactly growing fruit of the Spirit - even *before* I went off to college and *really* messed up bad.

I guess what I’m trying to get at based on your comment is, do you think that I never really had “gotten saved”/been sealed with the Holy Spirit before when I was younger? Or do you think I *did* get saved, when I prayed asking for forgiveness of my sins and accepting Jesus’ sacrifice and believing that he was the Son of God and the only salvation - and that the past x number of years has been me just going wildly astray while the Holy Spirit has been hoping to get me to take my faith seriously? The occasions when I *did* feel bad for my sins (and unfortunately tried to fight the bad feeling) - was that just normal human conscience, or was that the Holy Spirit trying to reach me? Then again, if that were the case, I wonder if the Holy Spirit would have left/given up on me by now, after *years* of me not listening... In which case I would now be like these Hebrews passages talk about - unable to be saved…

The thing is though, while yes I agree that my actions for most of my time thus far as a “Christian” were horrible and don’t line up with how a Christian is supposed to act - if you had asked me at any point during that time, I would have told you that I believed. But maybe the other poster is right, and I wasn’t saved back when I was young, and anything regarding Christianity was just head knowledge & an intellectual exercise for me. I can definitely see why someone would think I wasn’t really a born-again Christian before, and I myself am starting to think the same thing. I guess either way, what matters most is that I’m seeking a relationship with God *now* - but it would be nice for me to figure out really what the heck happened during my past years as a “Christian.” I just feel like I should be able to pinpoint when I “got saved” (if I even *have* been saved - I hope so…), and it bothers me to be so unsure. Thanks again.

Personally I always believed God exists apart from short episode of trying to hit on atheist girl in my 16's but it was more like pretending to be vegan to get vegan girl.

So yea even tho I believed God and I actually felt bad about my sins ( I was praying forgivness prayer quite often before bed time ) I was not saved , I once prayer a prayer aswell , not forgivness one but something like "I want you Jesus to come into my life and I want to have relationship with you" (paraphase , don't remember , prayer it with Kent Hovind who lead the prayer ) I was not saved. I don't remember how old I was but perhaps under 20ish?

I got saved when I had the gospel preached to me by other guy later , I don't remember correctly but it was like 23 or something but I was not looking for it , just had random guy pop a video on youtube with the gospel and I investigated the word by reading it , understood it and got saved then.
Felt like really good relief and then I was really hungry for God's word afterwards , even tho I tried to read Bible before it was something different this time since I put like at least 150 or so hours into it first month afterwards.

Because it happens when God wants it to happen not when you want , you just agree to the gospel or not but he is the one who initiate the saving process.

1)Person gets convicted he is sinner by HS
2)one way or another there is Preacher ( person who shares the gospel ) who will give you the gospel
3)You hear the gospel
4)You understand the gospel
5)You believe the gospel
6)You call upon Lord to get saved - which means you respond to the call God made
It has to be this order , need to understand it aswell.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
 
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Nathan@work

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I’ve got good news for you. God forgave(and has forgotten) all your sins - before you ever did them. This is the love God has for you.

The passage in Hebrews that has you bothered is simply talking about a person who rejects Gods gift of Faith.

Don’t reject what He has done for you. Don’t think you can do anything to earn His forgiveness.

He doesn’t want to leave you in the grasp you are feeling of sin. That’s why you have the conviction you do.

Believe in Him, trust Him, He has set you free from sins control. He has the power to lead you in the freedom He has given you. Follow His leading.
 
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Billy93

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Amen. He wouldn't. The God who died for you when you were His enemy, when you were bound under the power of the World, the Flesh and the devil, when you were mired in sin, is NOT the sort of God who gives up on wicked people. These are the only sort of people He has to deal with, after all.

You’re right. Thank you so much.

And it is this very horrible bondage that God uses to drive us to Himself where the power to truly break free is found.

The ironic (and really messed up) thing about it all, is that during those years of living a sinful lifestyle and “forgetting about” God and not living properly at all - when bad things would happen to me, I would still blame God for them! Basically, there were probably months if not years during which I didn’t even crack open my Bible *once*, didn’t pray or seek Him at all… but then when things in life didn’t go my way, I would suddenly remember Him!

It never really dawned on me that 1. Maybe if I got my act together and submitted my life to Him, I might not be having these problems and 2. If I were living the way He wanted me to live, then even if I had problems I would be able to deal with them in a better way, put things into perspective and have hope. It didn’t really dawn on me until sometime last year just how stupid/hypocritical it was of me to blame God for things that I was no doubt responsible for. I was totally unwilling to look at myself and admit “Hey, maybe I’m the problem here. Maybe I should give God’s way a chance since my way is clearly not working.” So I wasn’t exactly a very joyful/content person when I was living “my way.”

I obviously regret my past actions and recognize that I was living a very sinful lifestyle, but at the same time I wonder if that’s what had to happen (me finding no real fulfillment in living a worldly lifestyle) in order to finally get me to “wake up”? Not sure. Either way, I’m so glad I decided to start reading my Bible and praying last year.

Well, maybe it wasn't so much what you realized you could have with a seriously Christian woman that was attractive, but that in her, you saw something of Christ, the Lover of your soul. It would be just like the devil to get you to focus on the pleasure of being with a Christian woman serious about her faith so that you lose sight of the much greater joy of knowing the One for whom she was living her life.

You’re right, that’s a better way of putting it. I can only attribute what I saw in her, to Christ and what He had done for her life. She was clearly changed.

There's no anger - except, perhaps, at sin. We live in a world that takes sin far, far too lightly. I have been guilty of doing so myself. But the deeper I go with God, the more the destructiveness of sin, the terrible bondage it works upon people, driving them more and more into death and darkness, is evident and angers me.

No one can walk rightly, though, until they see the sin they embrace and enjoy for the horrendously evil thing it is. So, I don't respond to confessed sin with a "You poor baby! It's okay. We all screw up." I want to reinforce the awfulness of sin, not soften it, in the mind of the one who has come to a clearer sense of the true wickedness of their sin. My apologies if this came off as being angry with you personally.

No problem, I understand. I hope as I get closer to God (if He’ll let me!) that I will I feel more and more the same way. There were certain sins I committed that I almost made myself numb to over the years, while there were others that I always felt extremely guilty over. And yet there are others which I don’t think I ever recognized as sin to begin with, but now am having second thoughts and seeing I need to change. One of the things I’ve been asking God is that He will reveal my sins to me and convict me. I myself obviously saw it as “no big deal” for far too long, which is scary.

Friend, I have seen many tears shed by Christians over the years whose lives remain unchanged by their high emotion. I think it is a demonic tactic to lure people into thinking that a momentary weeping over their sin is a sign something truly spiritual has happened. At times, this is so. But, many times - perhaps more often than not - tears hide a heart not yet broken before God, in secret rebellion toward Him still.

In light of this, my aim was not to attack you, but to penetrate through the emotion that often makes us feel we are doing something serious with God, when, in fact, we aren't.

Wow, hadn’t thought of that but it makes a lot of sense. I could see Satan using something like that to make people feel like their faith must be “real” - even if they go right back to doing all the same things they were doing before. In a way, it's giving people an occasional dose of a false sense of security, when really they are still living in a totally destructive way. How does one know whether or not they have truly changed/are changing? By the appearance of fruit of the Spirit in their lives? By increased Bible reading/prayer? Etc. What is the top thing to look for?

Gratefulness is a place to start. But what God wants from you is more than just gratefulness. He wants your love. The First and Great Commandment - the one that comes before all others and is the ground out of which all of our Christian living is to grow - is to love God with all of your being. (Matthew 22:36-38) Do you love Him? Or are you merely grateful and feel a sense of obligation toward Him?

Only love is powerful enough to move you along the journey with God that is the Christian life. Fear, duty, obligation, religious piety and pride - none of these is as powerful as the love-motive in walking with God and none of them God accepts as a basis for your obedience to Him. (See 1 Corinthians 13:1-3) Do you love Him?

I think? I hope so. I want to love Him, at least. I read the book of Proverbs not long ago and loved reading time and time again about how He is a God of Wisdom. I consider myself a “truth seeker” (I like to actively seek out information and try to arrive at the truth of an issue/situation - and I want to know the truth even if it’s not what I believed previously/not what I want to hear), so I want to be on the side of Truth no matter what. And His is clearly the side of Truth.

Admittedly though, I am scared of the idea of hell - so there is a fear aspect too. I didn’t think about this when I wrote my initial post, but back around the time I started reading my Bible and praying again in 2020, I had been coming to strongly feel & believe that we are rapidly nearing the biblical End Times. I’ve always found the End Times very interesting as a topic, and have done a fair amount of research, but sometime in mid-2020 I got this overwhelming sense of evil in the world, and was gripped by terror that these things might actually be on the verge of coming to pass. I also found myself starting to get curious about Christianity in general again, and I was seeking out as much information as I could.

It especially dawned on me then that my spiritual life was virtually nonexistent, that I didn’t really have a relationship with God. And yet I knew that at the end of the day, there are only two sides - God’s side and the Devil’s. I knew whose side I wanted to be on, and that it was time (before I run out of time) to get serious. Now, I don’t know if I'm right and the End Times *are* actually around the corner (I still deeply believe they are) - but even if I'm wrong and I live out the rest of my natural life here on Earth, I want it to be a life living according to God’s ways, not my own. Because my ways were miserable, unfulfilling, evil, and on “the Devil’s side.”

Over the past year I’ve grown so disgusted with mankind. Everywhere I look, is hypocrisy, evil, double standards, intentionally mocking God, praising sin as though it were a virtue, the list goes on and on. Everywhere I look, people treat wrong as right and right as wrong. It disgusts me - and it disgusts me to know that I spent years taking part in some of the behaviors that these sorts of people praise and celebrate.

And I don’t say these things to say I’m somehow better; I’m obviously a *terrible* sinner like anyone else and it’s for that very reason that I’ve found myself terrified, and felt the need to make this post. I’ve sinned against God, and I’ve sinned many times. I don’t deserve salvation or forgiveness by a perfect God. But I don’t want to live anymore in a way that these people accept and praise. I want nothing to do with them, and if I get shunned/mocked/persecuted, so be it. They’re downright evil, and I pray they figure it out and turn around before it’s too late for them (just like I hope it’s not too late for me).

It is a very good sign. Those in whom God is not at work do not worry about sin.

I sure hope so. I definitely worry.

That seems pretty plain to me. Something has definitely changed, though, hasn't it? There appears to be life now that wasn't there in you before.

I think so. Like I said, I had NEVER read the Bible or prayed this much before. Even back when I was young and “got saved” (or so I thought). Lately, I’ve found myself praying periodically throughout the day. The last few days I’ve even noticed that my first thoughts of the day upon waking up, were prayers to God. So, He is clearly on my mind and in my heart 1000x more than ever before in my life.

Hmmm...discussing this issue might derail your thread considerably. Making comments in defense of OSAS will attract the usual SAL (saved-and-lost) folk to your thread who will resort to their typical cut-and-paste, wall-o-text stuff that they usually do. Though we all know what the other thinks at this point, the same "castles" of belief are erected, fortifications raised, and catapults of well-rehearsed perspective lob out points of view that simply bounce off the walls of an opponents "castle." There's a lot of heat, usually, but very little light. I'm not sure I want to endure this process again and I'm not sure you'd enjoy it or be helped by it, either. I can send you via PM some material on the passages, if you'd like.

No problem; I’d love for you to PM me some material! Would really appreciate it, thanks.

Your relationship with God is definitely a process. It develops over time, growing broader and deeper in its various aspects. The shape of your life with God now will not be the shape it will have ten years down the road. If there is one certainty in the Christian life, it is that change happens constantly as one becomes increasingly like Jesus by the work of the Spirit. (Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 3:18) Inasmuch as you're just getting started, there won't be quite as much built into your life yet by God.

I’ll have to keep that in mind. Thanks. Sounds sort of like a marriage in that way. (Though I’m not married so I wouldn’t know firsthand, but from what I’ve heard at least.)

Sounds to me like you've got the bare bones of it already in hand. A big part of the problem for the SAL crowd is their conflation of inevitability with necessity. They take the fact that good works are inevitable to a healthy spiritual life and extend it to mean that good works are therefore necessary to having a spiritual life. But an apple tree must be an apple tree in order to bear apples; it doesn't become an apple tree only when it bears apples, right? A boat is a boat whether it is floating on the surface of a lake or sitting with a hole in its side at the bottom of the lake. It should be floating, typically, as boats do, but even if it doesn't, it remains a boat. I possess my lawnmower even if I never use it to cut the grass and cannot cut my grass with it unless I first possess it. And so on.

Great way of putting it. Thanks again for your response, by the way!
 
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Billy93

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Personally I always believed God exists apart from short episode of trying to hit on atheist girl in my 16's but it was more like pretending to be vegan to get vegan girl.

So yea even tho I believed God and I actually felt bad about my sins ( I was praying forgivness prayer quite often before bed time ) I was not saved , I once prayer a prayer aswell , not forgivness one but something like "I want you Jesus to come into my life and I want to have relationship with you" (paraphase , don't remember , prayer it with Kent Hovind who lead the prayer ) I was not saved. I don't remember how old I was but perhaps under 20ish?

I got saved when I had the gospel preached to me by other guy later , I don't remember correctly but it was like 23 or something but I was not looking for it , just had random guy pop a video on youtube with the gospel and I investigated the word by reading it , understood it and got saved then.
Felt like really good relief and then I was really hungry for God's word afterwards , even tho I tried to read Bible before it was something different this time since I put like at least 150 or so hours into it first month afterwards.

Because it happens when God wants it to happen not when you want , you just agree to the gospel or not but he is the one who initiate the saving process.

This sounds a *lot* like me. I “believed” since I was a kid, but it was never really too personal for me. Last year I started noticing/thinking about a lot of stuff (such as I became convinced that the biblical End Times are coming soon) that got me thinking a lot more about God, which led to me reading my Bible and praying again for the first time in forever. I guess I never expected I would get serious about God like this; there were years during which I was sadly content to live a sinful lifestyle and tried to shrug it off like it was no big deal. And the few occasions I *did* think about God, it was often me being upset and blaming him for my problems in life (which looking back is absolutely ridiculous; *I* was the problem, and I wasn’t even trying to live His way whatsoever so idk why I thought that).

As those years went on though, I got less and less content; living in a worldly lifestyle just wasn’t making me happy or fulfilling me at all. I turned to worldly pleasures to try and make me feel better but they were always short-lived, temporary bandaids on what were obviously much bigger issues. And then finally, when I dated the Christian girl my eyes started to open a bit more. I noticed she had a lot of joy, and it was clear where she got it from.

I just hope that what I’m experiencing right now is “real.” I really don’t want to fall back into my old garbage lifestyle. But *something* is definitely different now, though; like I said, I *never* used to read the Bible or pray this much, and often when I used to pray it was just asking God for this or that. I was unwilling to let Him lead me at all, and I was selfish. Whereas recently, my prayers have been asking God to change me, to make me into who He wants me to be, to make me more like Christ, to help me give up sins, etc. So, I think that’s a pretty substantial difference in mindset at least. I just still hope that these Hebrews verses don’t mean that I’m a lost cause and that He isn’t listening to my prayers/doesn’t want me anymore. I’m feeling gradually better about it, though. Thanks again for your response.
 
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Billy93

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I’ve got good news for you. God forgave(and has forgotten) all your sins - before you ever did them. This is the love God has for you.

The passage in Hebrews that has you bothered is simply talking about a person who rejects Gods gift of Faith.

Don’t reject what He has done for you. Don’t think you can do anything to earn His forgiveness.

He doesn’t want to leave you in the grasp you are feeling of sin. That’s why you have the conviction you do.

Believe in Him, trust Him, He has set you free from sins control. He has the power to lead you in the freedom He has given you. Follow His leading.

Thanks so much. But does this even include the sins I did intentionally in those years after I heard the Good News/thought I was saved? I’ve been reading some things about how in the OT, there were only animal sacrifices for *unintentional* sins; for willful premeditated sin it seems like death was the main punishment(?). Is this a sign that there is no forgiveness for the sort of sins I committed? Or does Christ cover those sins as well, where *He* is the one who paid “the death penalty” for them instead of me? Sorry for all the questions; not sure if you know the answers. All the same, thank you for the encouragement.
 
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