20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

Timtofly said:

Then you are saying Armageddon happened in the first century? What year?

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You'll have to refresh my memory regarding what I said about Armageddon.

1000 represents a completion. That is why Christ reigns 1000 years physically on earth, while Satan is bound.

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"Physically" is not in the text.

NT teaching reveals there is no future temporal earthly kingdom, that Christ rejected the earthly kingdom offered to him by the Jews (Jn 6:15).
The temporal kingdom of God is now (Da 2:44), inaugurated during the Roman empire (Da 2:40-43), which conquered the Greek empire (Da 2:39, 8:21).
The temporal kingdom of God was set up during the past Roman empire, at the first coming of Christ (Mt 12:28).
NT teaching reveals that Christ reigns now in his temporal, invisible (Lk 17:20) spiritual kingdom within you (Lk 17:21), in the hearts of those who love and obey him, until the end of time.
At the end of time, the temporal kingdom of God becomes the eternal kingdom of God.

Clare73 said:

I don't know what you are asking.

The fullness of time for the Church Age is represented as 1,000 years.
The actual time could be any number.
Don't you think soteriology is full of literal meanings--faith, atonement, sacrifice, salvation, sanctification, justification, etc.?It's not what can happen, it's what God has declared shall happen.Probably when trees literally clap their hands and mountains literally sing for joy.

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Where is the fullness of the Gentiles described as 1000 years any where in the Bible?

The Bible is not written to be confusing, neither is is written to just make assumptions with God’s words.

Clare73 said:

Rebellion and sin began with angels, who were cast out, for sin cannot dwell in God's presence.

Adam likewise rebelled and disobeyed, for which he was cast out of the Garden.

Did you miss post #2597:

"Thou shalt not eat of it" was a command, the law of the Garden,

just as, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" was a command, the law of Israel.

Adam rebelled against God's law of the Garden.

He loved the creature more than the Creator.
In context, Paul's meaning of sin there is: there was no Mosaic law, so there was no sin, because there was no law to sin against--yet all from Adam to Moses died.
The sin that caused the death of all those before the Mosaic law was Adam's sin against the law of the Garden, "Thou shalt not eat of it."
The "millennium" represents the Church Age, which is not sinless.

There seems to be some serious misunderstanding of Ro 5:12-4 here.
Paul is demonstrating that Adam's sin is imputed to all mankind (Ro 5:18) with the following argument:

1) breaking the law is sin; where there is no law, there is no sin,
2) the wages of sin is death (Ro 6:23),
3) there was no law prior to Moses for mankind to break,
4) yet all mankind died anyway,
5) therefore, because physical death is caused by sin, all mankind prior to Moses were involved in sin,
6) the only sin in the world was the sin of Adam, so it was Adam's sin in which they were involved, and which caused their deaths,
7) Adam's sin is imputed (accounted, reckoned) to all those of Adam, just as Christ's righteousness is imputed to all those of Christ (1Co 15:22;
Ro 5:18-19).

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Then Eve did not sin, when she ate first.

Timtofly said:

Where is the fullness of the Gentiles described as 1000 years any where in the Bible?

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I give up. . .where?

The Bible is not written to be confusing, neither is is written to just make assumptions with God’s words.

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Okay. . .and?

Timtofly said:

Then Eve did not sin, when she ate first.

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In the OT, every thing is reckoned through the head.

Adam was the head of Eve, she came from his own body, as do his descendants from his own seed.

sovereigngrace said:

Where do the billions of wicked come from who rebel against Christ as the sand of the sea and overrun your supposed future millennium? Are they the resurrected righteous?

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Joshua 11:4 And they went out, they and all their hosts with them, much people, even as the sand that is upon the sea shore in multitude, with horses and chariots very many.


Do you think this event involved billions and billions of ppl, horses and chariots? If not, why not? Aren't you basically arguing that if a multitude of ppl are as the sand of the sea in number, it has to literally involve billions and billions of ppl at least?

sovereigngrace said:

This is a moot argument.

Moses employs `a thousand' in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?"

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you" (v 10).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one."

This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 saying, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The same idea is intended in Isaiah 60:21-22, where the prophet instructs, in relation to the New Earth, "Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Amos 5:1-4 says, "The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

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This is a mute argument.

We are not talking about created things. We are talking about a time set apart as Holy unto God.

Do you claim Adam's punishment should be conflated with Holiness? Do you consecrate your own time? Do you remove your own sin? Why would this be considered a time of sin absent from the world, before Adam's punishment has been completed? Was Adam's punishment over after 4000 years, with Christ on the Cross? Why is there still sin and death? Why do Adam's descendants still dwell in wickedness?

grafted branch said:

Thanks for that response, I personally am not premill but I do try to examine how others see things.

Wouldn’t the knowledge of good and evil have to be present in a future millennium for people to populate the world? Adam and Eve didn’t even know they were naked until they had the knowledge of good and evil.

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Cain and Abel were born in the Garden prior to sin. Sex was not the result of sin, nor did Eve have sex with the serpent. Talk about turning every thing into a literal interpretation from a figurative statement. Cain was the biological son of Adam and Eve. Cain was kicked out of the Garden after he murdered Abel.

Another point missed. Adam did not bring sin into the Garden. He brought sin into the world. Sin could not be in the Garden either figuratively nor literally. God never told Cain not to kill Abel. God warned Cain, sin was at the door. Sin was in the world, outside of the Garden, both literally and figuratively.

Death is still possible even without sin, and with incorruptible bodies. But Cain had to leave after He killed Abel. That is why I cannot understand why people cannot accept a perfect millennium on earth. They seem like Cain, upset that God does things a certain way, and they do not like it. They would, God had an earth with sin in it.

Timtofly said:

Cain and Abel were born in the Garden prior to sin. Sex was not the result of sin, nor did Eve have sex with the serpent. Talk about turning every thing into a literal interpretation from a figurative statement. Cain was the biological son of Adam and Eve. Cain was kicked out of the Garden after he murdered Abel.

Another point missed. Adam did not bring sin into the Garden. He brought sin into the world. Sin could not be in the Garden either figuratively nor literally. God never told Cain not to kill Abel. God warned Cain, sin was at the door. Sin was in the world, outside of the Garden, both literally and figuratively.

Death is still possible even without sin, and with incorruptible bodies. But Cain had to leave after He killed Abel. That is why I cannot understand why people cannot accept a perfect millennium on earth. They seem like Cain, upset that God does things a certain way, and they do not like it. They would, God had an earth with sin in it.

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I’m not trying to argue about sin in the Garden of Eden.

Adam and Eve hid themselves after they had eaten the fruit because they knew they were naked, they were unaware of this prior to eating the fruit. In Genesis 4:1 Adam knew Eve. It should be obvious that people need to aware if they are naked or not in order to procreate; the knowledge of good and evil needed to be present for procreation.

If the millennium starts out just like the Garden of Eden, people aren’t going to be populating the earth until they have the knowledge of good and evil. So based on your statement below …

Timtofly said:

Those resurrected do not carry sin back into reality. Those resurrected are given a new experience to reign with Christ. They populate the world for 1000 years. That would see the birth of billions way more than under current conditions.

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When and how does the knowledge of good and evil happen in the millennium?

Clare73 said:

You'll have to refresh my memory regarding what I said about Armageddon.

"Physically" is not in the text.

NT teaching reveals there is no future temporal earthly kingdom, that Christ rejected the earthly kingdom offered to him by the Jews (Jn 6:15).
The temporal kingdom of God is now (Da 2:44), inaugurated during the Roman empire (Da 2:40-43), which conquered the Greek empire (Da 2:39, 8:21).
The temporal kingdom of God was set up during the past Roman empire, at the first coming of Christ (Mt 12:28).
NT teaching reveals that Christ reigns now in his temporal, invisible (Lk 17:20) spiritual kingdom within you (Lk 17:21), in the hearts of those who love and obey him, until the end of time.
At the end of time, the temporal kingdom of God becomes the eternal kingdom of God.

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It is right there in Revelation 19 and 20.

Clare73 said:

I give up. . .where?
Okay. . .and?

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Then you have no proof that the fullness of the Gentiles is found in Revelation 20.

Why do you claim otherwise?

sovereigngrace said:

You cannot even explain the countless holes in your own position. This is your issue not mine. You have to justify the religious mess that Premi creates 1000 years after the second coming. Amils enter a perfect sin-free curse-free death-free wicked-free Satan-free wickedness-free eternal state.

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That is the church. Are you saying only amils make up the church?

Clare73 said:

You'll have to refresh my memory regarding what I said about Armageddon.

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Timtofly said:

It is right there in Revelation 19 and 20.

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Non-responsive.

Timtofly said:

Then you have no proof that the fullness of the Gentiles is found in Revelation 20.

Why do you claim otherwise?

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Refresh my memory. . .where did I say that the fullness of the Gentiles is found in Rev 20?

And try to be more accurate than you were with Armageddon.

Clare73 said:

Non-responsive.

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Clare73 said:

fullness of time for the Church Age is represented as 1,000 years.
The actual time could be any number.

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Clare73 said:

I give up. . .where?
Okay. . .and?

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John claims the 1000 years is on earth immediately following the battle of Armageddon in Revelation 19 and 20.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

If you think this time does not include Satan, then look at the 6th vial:

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Where:

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

The 1000 years comes after all mankind is killed. Some are resurrected to reign with Christ. The scene is on earth and never leaves earth, not even when Satan is loosed from the pit.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.