What if greedy authorities hid bible verses from the world at talked about reincarnarion being real?

Petros2015

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And romans 2:6 pretty much says that fairness is enforced by making each person pay for what they do.

I'm not sure reincarnation will solve that; I'm pretty sure I rack up a debt here on earth no matter what situation I'm born into. The words of Christ though I believe were paraphrased by Peter Parker "with great power comes great responsibility", and I believe that with the judgment we used we shall be judged, with the mercy we gave, we shall be given. With the compassion we gave, we shall be given. This seems, in any lifetime, fair enough.

It is amusing to think about though.
"Be careful," I sometimes say
"I'll let you in on a little secret - you only get to be born in the USA 1 time, so be careful of the walls you build and the laws you impose. You might have to cross them shortly"

I don't really think they'll have to do that here though.
I should hope that one lifetime is enough.
However, based on Christ's sayings
They might encounter a little difficulty
Trying to declare amnesty
At the Pearly Gates
;)
 
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Handmaid for Jesus

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HA YES! You are right about 'computer'! I remember that from even in the 1950's. "A computist is a calculator"!

Maybe you are right and it is only 'embroiled'. hmm...
There was a time when black women were also called computers.
 
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Mark Quayle

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ViaCrucis

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Are you suggesting some kind of conspiracy? What greedy authorities are you talking about and why would they do it?

It's been a common conspiracy theory on the internet for at least as long as I've been on the internet--which is how I first encountered it. But it goes back further, probably at least a few decades earlier I imagine.

So the conspiracy theory goes, early Christians believed in reincarnation and then "big bad church authorities" (read: "Roman Catholic Church" but with scary pipe organ music playing and a crackling of thunder) edited the Bible by either removing passages or even entire books from the Bible that talked about it.

Some will then go on to argue that there is "evidence" of this early belief in reincarnation by saying something like, "A Christian teacher named Origen believed in reincarnation".

The first part of the conspiracy is often tied into "The Council of Nicea/Emperor Constantine picked and chose which books were to be in the Bible" claims; which is a repeated but obviously untrue statement in and of itself--not only is there no evidence to back this up, but we actually have historical documents and evidence that show us a broad timeline of the Bible came together. And neither Nicea nor Constantine played a role in that. The undisputed books (Homolegoumena) of the New Testament look the same both before and after Constantine, and the disputed books (Antilegomena) of the New Testament look the same both before and after Constantine.

Further, there is simply no evidence by which to make any of this conspiratorial claim. There is nothing in the paleographical, archeological, or historical records that so much as hints at such. It is a fiction woven together from pure nothing.

And finally, the attempt to drag Origen into it is, by far, the best of the arguments; but only insofar as everything else has been pure hokum. But even here this is wrong, as Origen never taught nor believed in reincarnation--and in fact speaks quite emphatically against it, stating that the Christian Church has never taught or believed in reincarnation and that it is contrary to Christian faith. What Origen does do, and this is where it gets complicated, is engage in wide-eyed speculation about really, really big questions.

Namely: Origen in his speculation wondered if prior to our universe if perhaps there had been one before, and if, then, there might be another universe at some point. Is the history of our universe the only one that has ever occurred? To which Origen then imagines (as pure speculation, never stating it as belief) and wonders what, if there have been previous universes, and if there may be future universes to come, what that all ultimately means: To which Origen then imagines a kind of "reincarnation" but of a succession of cosmoi, not a succession of souls from one body to the next.

Again, this is pure speculation from Origen, and does not represent what he himself actually believed; only he allowed himself to wonder, speculate, and imagine what-ifs. It's just that his "what-if" speculative ideas have been preserved for the last ~1700 years in his writings, and ours probably won't.

Editing to add: Here is perhaps a decent place that addresses the matter of Origen more thoroughly, addressing quotes often misattributed, misquoted, or otherwise not taken in proper context.

Early Christianity and Reincarnation: Modern Misrepresentation of Quotes by Origen

-CryptoLutheran
 
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TedT

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hid bible verses from the world at talked about reincarnarion being real?
.
Since the serpent was more evil than the other animals hinting they were evil also and they were cursed with the serpent for their lesser evil and GOD drowned them in the flood for their evil violence with the men of the world, I believe that evil spirits can indeed inhabit the bodies of animals perhaps by reincarnation.

BUT there is only one salvation from the consequences of choosing to be sinful in the eyes of GOD offered to creation and that is found in Christ the Son and HIS death only. Period. There is nothing in the fact of reincarnation even if accepted that means anything but that only demons are reincarnated as the elect are reborn into Christ. The wicked RETURN to Sheol on their death, Ps 9:17 The wicked do turn back / return to Sheol, All nations forgetting God. [the KJV does no little disservice here in their mistranslation] but the righteous, the elect, return to GOD their Saviour.
 
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TedT

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Some will then go on to argue that there is "evidence" of this early belief in reincarnation by saying something like, "A Christian teacher named Origen believed in reincarnation".
Origen believed in the pre-conception (as human) creation of all spirits before the creation of the physical universe. This has led Jerome to extrapolate his meaning to include the theologies and doctrines of other non-Christian cultures who believe in the pre-human existence of all spirits which is just not necessary in the least and are obviously erroneous to Christian theology.
 
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Chris35

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Book of Esther in the bible shows God's control over these things. It's a great read.

It's about a man who was closest to the king, and had alot of power, who manipulated the king into trying to kill all the jews in the kingdom. He built with the kings approval a gallow to hang a certain Jew on.

God turned it all around very quickly and the man ended up getting hanged on his own gallow which he had built for them.

If the authorities, because of their greed, did keep books about incarnation or anything else for themselves, it will be a curse to them, because they weren't from God in the first place.

Then they would have a distorted message of the bible, about God, and Jesus. It would become a hindrance to them.


See what I'm getting at?
If they were greedy for extra power or knowledge, and they left it for themselves, it wasn't from God in the first place, and was never meant to be in the bible. Now God has used their greed, to restore his bible, and they have a book that's false anyway, which will hinder them.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Were talking about an awful lot of hiding. This would presume that only some fringe elements of the Essenes and the Gnostics were right, and their was a giant conspiracy far far greater than anything we have ever known that managed to keep "this truth" out of the Books of the Bible from Genesis through Revelation, and more over planted a consistent disinformation campaign with their talk of Sheol, Hades, the bosom of Abraham, and paradise.


Jesus said that "the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church" and many other things that suggests that God's truth wins out even against persecution and all the wiles of the Devil. While this OP really assumes the opposite, at least for most of the history of the Judeo-Christian tradition, essentially that Satan or the archon forces of the Demiurge managed to suppress the true Gnosis of the Gospel for thousands of years.
 
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Hanging by a Thread

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Maybe it’s not hidden at all. Jesus flat out said that John the Baptist is Elijah. I have one of those Bibles that has the footnotes below put together by theologists explaining the meanings of scripture. This assertion, among several others falls under the “well, Jesus didn’t really mean that” category. But that’s what the man said. There’s no way around that. He even brackets the assertion with comments that seem to anticipate disbelief: “If you are willing to accept it”…i.e – I know this will be a leap for you guys.
“He who has ears to hear, let him hear”… i.e.- that’s right, you heard me correctly.
I don’t know if there is reincarnation and if this is actually what Jesus meant, but food for thought anyway.
You could say it’s not reincarnation because I believe Elijah technically never died.
There's also the instance where Elijah later appeared as himself during the transformation.
You could also say that John denied he was Elijah. I don’t know the rules of reincarnation but the standard seems to imply that you’re not fully aware of any previous lives. And John also denied he was a prophet. But Jesus said John was both a prophet and Elijah. So who you gonna believe, John or Jesus himself?
All things are possible with God, so who knows? Maybe some get more than one chance.
 
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Hanging by a Thread

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That's basically the sum total of the argument in favor of reincarnation.
Heh-heh. Yeah, well I suppose you could replace the word "reincarnation" in your sentence with several other subjects that are discussed here.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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-CryptoLutheran

Thanks, I was aware of most of what you said, though I don't recall it being about reincarnation and it is only gnostic influenced questioners who claim that there are bits of the Bible that have been missed out.

For reincarnation to be the goal it has to appear somewhere and given there is zero evidence that it was ever in it in the first place, one might just as well argue that the Bible contains prophecies that the computers will take over the world but the early church removed them.

In other words it is totally illogical.
 
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RaymondG

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IMHO grace is not fair. We don't pay, for Jesus paid it all.
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

Everyone will reap what they sow....in this life....or the next.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Origen believed in the pre-conception (as human) creation of all spirits before the creation of the physical universe. This has led Jerome to extrapolate his meaning to include the theologies and doctrines of other non-Christian cultures who believe in the pre-human existence of all spirits which is just not necessary in the least and are obviously erroneous to Christian theology.

I might have to go back and do more study; but my understanding was that the idea of a preexistence was one of Origen's speculations--not a thing he himself believed, but something he posited as a speculative possibility, rooted in his education in Platonic philosophy.

The condemnation against Origen from later on over this notion (such as it is in the Third Council of Constantinople) and by noted anti-Origenists such as St. Jerome; was less about what Origen himself believed and taught; but more about what some later Origenists were believing and teaching--presenting the more speculative aspects of Origen's thought as though they were dogmatic truths.

Or, at the very least, that has been my understanding based on my own reading on this subject matter.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Petros2015

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essentially that Satan or the archon forces of the Demiurge managed to suppress the true Gnosis of the Gospel for thousands of years.

But NOW it's YOURS for only $ninety-nine ninety-nine ninety-nine!!! :)

...Act now and we'll throw in 5 other gospels
+ the Acts of Pilate AND the Apocolypse of Peter
AND an extremely limited autographed edition of the Book of Enoch*

*some water damage
 
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ViaCrucis

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To enter the womb as a zygote, he had to be in an no-corporeal state, ie dead.

Are you saying that the soul/spirit of Elijah entered into the womb of St. Elizabeth to become John the Baptist?

That never happened. The Prophet Elijah and St. John the Baptist are two entirely different human persons. John fulfilled the prophecy of the coming of Elijah, and thus came in the spirit and power of Elijah as Christ our Lord clearly teaches. But at the Mount of Transfiguration when both Moses and Elijah appear with Christ, it is Elijah, not John, who is there.

No person entered the zygote in Elizabeth's womb; that which was conceived in the womb of Elizabeth, sired by Zachariah, was a brand new human person--John the Baptist. Who came in the spirit and power of Elijah as the forerunner of the Messiah.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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