Paul did not teach Perpetual Belief Alone-ism for salvation.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 22, 2021

MMXX said:
It seems to me you reduced it from apostasy to having a sinful thought. When you asked if a Christian has a lustful thought, and gets hit by a bus before he confesses it, is he saved? It seems to me you think the answer is no. From what I recall, you said as much in another thread. That would mean every time a Christian sins, they become unsaved and have to be born again.

The way I figure it if a Christian has to confess each sin to get their salvation back, to be born again, again, the whole process would have to be repeated each time.

The problem is that you have not proven with Scripture that the Parable of the Prodigal Son and James 5:19-20 is not talking about how a saved believer can die spiritually via by sin or going prodigal and then they can come back to the Lord to the saving of their soul again.

setst777 · Feb 22, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
All the terminology used --"they chose hell", "it is not God's fault", etc-- is just another way to put it, I suppose, but the Bible says because they have not believed, which can be taken to imply several different things. In one way of looking at it, man does indeed choose hell, by rejecting Christ. But John 3:18 says he was already condemned.

Did the person really choose hell since everyone is dead in sin, and so - according to Calvinism - cannot choose to believe?

Since God knows that no one can believe - according the Calvinism - then God must instead show partiality, electing some to give them faith through regeneration.

God is an impartial and righteous judge, showing no favoritism

However, Scripture makes clear that God is a righteous and impartial judge showing mercy to all.

There are many Scriptures teaching this reality (Deuteronomy 10:17; 2 Chronicles 19:7; Acts 10:34-35; Romans 2:5-13; Romans 10:10-14; Romans 11:30-32; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 3:23-25; 1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; James 2:9; Hosea 4:6).

If God is a righteous and impartial Judge, as Scripture teaches, how is it you feel God can show partiality in judgment - favoring some by giving them faith through regeneration, and condemning the rest without any chance at all?

Where does Scripture teach the regeneration precedes faith? Don't quote a Passage and assume. Anyone can do that. Quote where Scripture actually teaches that.

Does God invite only some to the Wedding Feast (Matthew 22:1-14), or does God send out His servants to gather all that would come?

Calvinists must alter and reinterpret every one of the following Passages to make it say that God shows partiality. But that is not what these verses actually state.

Romans 11:32 (WEB)
For God has shut up all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all.

Titus 2:11 (WEB) 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men

Isaiah 53:6 (WEB) 6 All we like sheep have gone astray. Everyone has turned to his own way; and Yahweh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1 John 2:2 (WEB) 2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

John 1:29 (WEB) 29 The next day, he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 3:14-18 (WEB) 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 4:42 (WEB) 42 They said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of your speaking; for we have heard for ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.”

2 Corinthians 5:19 (WEB)
19 … God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses, and having committed to us the word of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 (WEB) 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony in its own times

1 Timothy 4:10 (WEB) 10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we have set our trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Hebrews 2:9 (WEB) 9 But we see him who has been made a little lower than the angels, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God he should taste of death for everyone.

Although God has paid the ransom for all people, only those who believe after hearing the Gospel appropriate that ransom to themselves.

Mark Quayle said:
The word foreknowledge doesn't mean foresight, unless foresight also means what God knowingly causes

Foreknowledge or foreknew means to love beforehand or to have known beforehand. Foreknow does not mean God knowingly causes.

Mark Quayle said:
--not what merely happens by chance or by someone else's sovereignty. How could God NOT know? After all, He CAUSED it. God is not an unwitting victim of the future.

For God to know something is not equal to God causing something.

If a sovereign God chooses to save those who would believe in His Son at the hearing of the Gospel, which is taught in throughout the NT, who are we to say that God is not sovereign for doing so?

Mark Quayle said:
Now, to your question, I agree, we are obligated not to resist the Spirit. Are you saying that counters what I say there?

Yes, because Romans 8:1-4; Romans 8:12-13; Galatians 5:13-25; and Galatians 6:7-9 shows that each person who believes in Jesus must continue to demonstrate his faith by living, walking and reaping to the Spirit to be saved. Not everyone will remain faithful, and many will fall away. But the Scriptures do not teach that, if believer falls away, means they were never saved to begin with.

In contrast, you are saying those God elected to save are guaranteed to be saved. That is why I quote those Passages.

Mark Quayle said:
I quote this last because I hope you can see John's construction here: the one who keeps Christ's commands can be known to know Christ. Conversely, if one does not keep Christ's commands he does not know him. John shows that the works is evidence of, not the cause of, belonging to Christ or being in Christ...

John 3:18 (NIV) 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

In John 3:18, in the context of John 3:14-18, we see that, unlike what Calvinism teaches, each person has a choice to either believe and be saved, or not to believe and remain condemned. A sovereign God judges each person according to how he responds to his grace.

Blessings

NotreDame · Feb 22, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Paul did not teach Belief Alone-ism for salvation:

Many believe that Paul taught to believe in Jesus alone to be saved;
But this is not true. For Paul also says...

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4). (Note: James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel,...” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

“But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16). (Note: To know God is a part of salvation (See: John 17:3, and 1 John 2:3-4, 1 John 5:12).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

“For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).

“That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

“Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4).

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.” (Ephesians 5:3-7).

“Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). This plays in nicely with this verse: And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” (2 Timothy 2:19).

“Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” (Titus 2:14).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (Titus 2:11-12).

Side Note:

Yes, Paul taught that we must believe in Jesus and His grace, and in the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, but this was not Belief Alone-ism with the exclusion of living holy afterwards.

These verses do not accomplish the task of the heavy lifting you seek.

Paul’s declaration is clear, unequivocal, and easy to comprehend when he said, “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.” Romans 10.

Yes, the above results in salvation. Logically, this can be reduced to a condition of: If X, then Y. X, therefore Y. As a matter of fact, this is exactly how Paul phrased his remarks, as a condition.

X=“if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead.”

Y=“you will be saved;”

The logical operation of conditionals. If X, then Y. X, therefore, Y.

If X (if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead”), then Y (you will be saved;”).

John, at the altar and turning his life to Jesus, says, “Jesus is Lord, and believe in his heart that God raised Him from the dead,” “John is saved.” There is X, John did X. Therefore, there is Y, John is saved.

At best all you’ve done in the post above is made the argument salvation can be perhaps volunatarily abandoned or voluntarily relinquished. Now a life in Christ will reflect the salvation given amd received by a life transformed from a life in slavery to sins of the flesh to freedom in Christ and a life lived pleasing to the Spirit.

You verses and post not cast aspersions upon the notion of salvation by faith. Your verses focusing upon perhaps a salvation given upon to live a life according to the flesh and sinful nature.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 22, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Calvinism agrees with Galatians 6:7-10. I don't see how you think it doesn't, except by YOUR extrapolating Calvinism to say otherwise. The Elect will indeed finally be in Heaven. That does not mean they have a ticket to ride and need not work. Because, as I have repeated, God is not mocked, and without works, faith is dead. Calvinism disputes none of that. Why do you persist in posing this strawman to knock down? Do you feel you haven't yet done a worthy job of knocking him down?

Well, I accept that you say that works are a must, but your belief is contradictory or it is set to auto destruct. For you essentially say works are necessary and yet you say they are not for salvation. Then you turn around and say that without works faith is dead (Which implies they are needed part of salvation). For one cannot access the grace of God without faith, right? Does not God's grace save?

Calvinists believe faith and grace are gifts from God. This is only partially true. Only God's grace is a gift from God and not faith. Ephesians 2:8 does not say gifts (plural). Anyways, if you believe faith is a gift from God, then then you must also believe the work of faith to be the same because they are connected. They are two sides of the same coin. Ephesians 2:8 says we are saved by God's grace through faith. So no faith means there is no grace. James says works makes one's faith perfect (James 2:22). They are connected.

You said:
The Elect (and there are none who have a full comprehension of the Gospel) can be found in the most odd places --not where you or I might think. Of course they can be deceived, and reap according to what they sow, yet God brings them out, and pays their debt. If the supposed 'elect' one lives without works, he has deceived himself, and is not saved, not elect. This really isn't complicated.

Yet, Paul is not speaking in terms like what you are saying, though. His wording is not the same as yours or in a Calvinistic sense. That is why Calvinism is just silly. The Calvinistic language is simply not there (but only in the imagination of the Calvinist). Only Romans 9 appears to read in a Calvinistic way at first glance (if one ignores the context and cross references), but the rest of the Bible as a whole does not really read that way (Especially Galatians 6:8-9). Paul says to not be weary or tired in well doing in verse 9. Why would Paul bother to tell us to not be weary in well doing if we are Elect. One will either just do the good works by sowing after the Spirit, and the other will not in Calvinism. There should not be any encouragement to not be tired in well doing. The Elect will just simply persevere automatically because they are the Elect. So Paul's words fall flat here in the world of Calvinism.

You said:
This too, I've already explained. A plain reading such as you should appreciate, says simply that if we sow to the Spirit we will OF THE SPIRIT reap life everlasting. Where does this depart from Calvinism? Calvinism insists on works!

So Paul is not teaching Belief Alone-ism? You agree with me that Paul is teaching that there must be works as a part of the faith (Which is the vehicle that accesses God's saving grace)?

Dan1988 · Feb 22, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Paul did not teach Belief Alone-ism for salvation:

Many believe that Paul taught to believe in Jesus alone to be saved;
But this is not true. For Paul also says...

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4). (Note: James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel,...” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

“But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16). (Note: To know God is a part of salvation (See: John 17:3, and 1 John 2:3-4, 1 John 5:12).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

“For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).

“That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

“Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4).

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.” (Ephesians 5:3-7).

“Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). This plays in nicely with this verse: And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” (2 Timothy 2:19).

“Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” (Titus 2:14).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (Titus 2:11-12).

Side Note:

Yes, Paul taught that we must believe in Jesus and His grace, and in the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, but this was not Belief Alone-ism with the exclusion of living holy afterwards.

So in summary, salvation is a joint effort. Jesus did His bit on the cross and we need to finish the job by being good citizens and paying our taxes etc.

Saved Christians still slip up and commit adultery and murder, but God's OK with with that as long as we repent after we commit every grievous sin.

Paul did say that he does that which he hates (sin) and does not do that which he knows to be right. So he claims that his sin nature rules his life..

I hope I have understood you properly, I don't want to misrepresent what you proclaimed.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 22, 2021

NotreDame said:
These verses do not accomplish the task of the heavy lifting you seek.

Paul’s declaration is clear, unequivocal, and easy to comprehend when he said, “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.” Romans 10.

Yes, the above results in salvation. Logically, this can be reduced to a condition of: If X, then Y. X, therefore Y. As a matter of fact, this is exactly how Paul phrased his remarks, as a condition.

X=“if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead.”

Y=“you will be saved;”

The logical operation of conditionals. If X, then Y. X, therefore, Y.

If X (if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead”), then Y (you will be saved;”).

John, at the altar and turning his life to Jesus, says, “Jesus is Lord, and believe in his heart that God raised Him from the dead,” “John is saved.” There is X, John did X. Therefore, there is Y, John is saved.

At best all you’ve done in the post above is made the argument salvation can be perhaps volunatarily abandoned or voluntarily relinquished. Now a life in Christ will reflect the salvation given amd received by a life transformed from a life in slavery to sins of the flesh to freedom in Christ and a life lived pleasing to the Spirit.

You verses and post not cast aspersions upon the notion of salvation by faith. Your verses focusing upon perhaps a salvation given upon to live a life according to the flesh and sinful nature.

My Pentecostal friend would disagree with you.
Believers can fall away.
Anyways, look at 1 Timothy 6:3-4. Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. So if one is not living godly they don't have grace according to these two pieces of Scripture. Very simple to understand. I should not need another verse to prove my case, but I have more on my list. Paul also says that a person can deny God by a lack of works, too (Titus 1:16). See, works are necessary to prove that Christ is in us. Faith without works is dead. Can a dead faith save anyone? Even the demons believe and tremble. So works are a part of salvation. For they are a part of the faith.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 22, 2021

Dan1988 said:
Saved Christians still slip up and commit adultery and murder, but God's OK with with that as long as we repent after we commit every grievous sin.

Paul did say that he does that which he hates (sin) and does not do that which he knows to be right. So he claims that his sin nature rules his life..

I hope I have understood you properly, I don't want to misrepresent what you proclaimed.

No. I am not saying a Christian will normally slip up and commit adultery and murder as the norm... no. But if that rare odd Christian does happen to commit these sins, they can seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ and be changed again whereby they would not do that. Christians can go prodigal and fall into a state of spiritual death whereby they would need to repent an be restored again to spiritual life again. King David committed adultery and murder and he was forgiven of these sins. But a believer can lust after a woman without intending to do so and it is just as equally condeming as regular adultery (See: Matthew 5:28-30). So a Christian needs to live a holy life as a part of God's plan of salvation after they are saved by God's grace. If not, then one can live like the devil and be saved by having a belief alone in Jesus. But we know that even the demons believe and yet we know they are not saved.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 22, 2021

Dan1988 said:
So in summary, salvation is a joint effort. Jesus did His bit on the cross and we need to finish the job by being good citizens and paying our taxes etc.

It's like when you are trapped on the side of the cliff and somebody throws you a rope to pull you up. They ask you to hold on to the rope as they pull you up. Do you boast in how you saved yourself in this kind of scenario? Surely not. But yet, you had to do your part in order to be saved, as well. God does not force salvation upon anyone. That would make this life totally meaningless and without purpose.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 22, 2021

atpollard said:
Respectfully, no you do not believe that.

Either “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED” or SOME will call on the name of the lord and NOT BE SAVED because they did not do [insert something else here].

Salvation is either monergistic and 100% of God, or it is NOT (making it synergistic). Looking at the “whole council of God’s word” does not negate any clearly articulated truth of God’s word.

Anyone can read a verse in the Bible in a vaccum. But we have to read the whole counsel of God's Word to get a more comprehensive picture of salvation. As for Calvinism: Yeah, sorry. I disagree with all 5 points in Calvinism. I consider it as about as bad as believing in a flat Earth. It's really silly - IMO.

atpollard · Feb 22, 2021

setst777 said:
If God is a righteous and impartial Judge, as Scripture teaches, how is it you feel God can show partiality in judgment - favoring some by giving them faith through regeneration, and condemning the rest without any chance at all?

Is condemning the guilty for what they have done somehow not “righteous”?
If God condemns all of the guilty for their guilt, where is the partiality?

John 3:16-18 explains that some are not judged and why. It also explains that the rest stand already judged and why (with John 3:19-20 describing the judgement).

Dan1988 · Feb 22, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
It's like when you are trapped on the side of the cliff and somebody throws you a rope to pull you up. They ask you to hold on to the rope as they pull you up. Do you boast in how you saved yourself in this kind of scenario? Surely not. But yet, you had to do your part in order to be saved, as well. God does not force salvation upon anyone. That would make this life totally meaningless and without purpose.

This particular Bible doctrine has divided the Church for many centuries. There are good arguments on both sides, so many decide to sit on the fence but I don't think any denomination allows it's members to sit on the fence. They force their members to take their side side or face ex communication.
I used to believe in the joint effort salvation model, but I ended up taking the "saved by grace alone through faith alone" model. My church teaches election and predestination, for which there are around 120 Bible verses to support it which is far more than those which seem to support the joint effort view.
I don't expect anyone who holds a to a different view to agree with me, some of the most learned Bible scholars and Theologians hold to opposing views on this question so I don't expect any ordinary garden variety Christians to agree with each other.
Most Christians believe it comes down to personal choice, they believe the Bible offers many different choices and many different paths to God and people from different cultures and ethnic groups have a different set of views.
The most famous Bible verse used to be John 3:16 and now it's Matthew 7:1 the modern Church teaches us not to judge anyone. The Pope is pushing for all faiths to join together, he believes every religion leads to God.

Ceallaigh · Feb 22, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
The problem is that you have not proven with Scripture that the Parable of the Prodigal Son and James 5:19-20 is not talking about how a saved believer can die spiritually via by sin or going prodigal and then they can come back to the Lord to the saving of their soul again.

I'm just commenting on what it seems you are saying those scriptures mean.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 22, 2021

atpollard said:
Is condemning the guilty for what they have done somehow not “righteous”?
If God condemns all of the guilty for their guilt, where is the partiality?

John 3:16-18 explains that some are not judged and why. It also explains that the rest stand already judged and why (with John 3:19-20 describing the judgement).

John 3:20 is saying that everyone who does evil hates the light. This applies to everyone because it uses the word everyone. So this would include even those who claim to believe in Jesus. If they do evil they are hating the light (Jesus). But good thing there is mercy and grace to help us to overcome grievous sin (mortal sin) in this life. If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (1 John 1:9). But we have to also forsake our evil ways. For Paul asks the question: Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul answers, God forbid (See: Romans 6:1-2). Proverbs 28:13 basically says that he that confesses and forsakes sin shall receive mercy.

klutedavid · Feb 22, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
My Pentecostal friend would disagree with you.
Believers can fall away.
Anyways, look at 1 Timothy 6:3-4. Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. So if one is not living godly they don't have grace according to these two pieces of Scripture. Very simple to understand. I should not need another verse to prove my case, but I have more on my list. Paul also says that a person can deny God by a lack of works, too (Titus 1:16). See, works are necessary to prove that Christ is in us. Faith without works is dead. Can a dead faith save anyone? Even the demons believe and tremble. So works are a part of salvation. For they are a part of the faith.

Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

No matter how you interpret the scripture and jump, here and there, in selecting verses. You are always saved by grace and that is the end of the matter.

Acts 15:11
But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.

Ceallaigh · Feb 22, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
No. I am not saying a Christian will normally slip up and commit adultery and murder as the norm... no. But if that rare odd Christian does happen to commit these sins, they can seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ and be changed again whereby they would not do that. Christians can go prodigal and fall into a state of spiritual death whereby they would need to repent an be restored again to spiritual life again. King David committed adultery and murder and he was forgiven of these sins. But a believer can lust after a woman without intending to do so and it is just as equally condemning as regular adultery (See: Matthew 5:28-30). So a Christian needs to live a holy life as a part of God's plan of salvation after they are saved by God's grace. If not, then one can live like the devil and be saved by having a belief alone in Jesus. But we know that even the demons believe and yet we know they are not saved.

It seems like the Holy Spirit is being left out regarding this. How do you see the Holy Spirit playing a part in this? Like if a Christian goes prodigal and falls into a state of spiritual death, how is it they come about to repenting to be restored to spiritual life? Do they do that completely on their own, or does it come about through the Holy Spirit prompting them?

Ceallaigh · Feb 22, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
It's like when you are trapped on the side of the cliff and somebody throws you a rope to pull you up. They ask you to hold on to the rope as they pull you up. Do you boast in how you saved yourself in this kind of scenario? Surely not. But yet, you had to do your part in order to be saved, as well. God does not force salvation upon anyone. That would make this life totally meaningless and without purpose.

The thing with the rope scenario though is there's a difference between grabbing hold and being pulled up, and having to climb up the rope to be saved. I believe Dan1988 was addressing the latter scenario when he wrote:"So in summary, salvation is a joint effort. Jesus did His bit on the cross and we need to finish the job by being good citizens and paying our taxes etc."

Bible Highlighter · Feb 23, 2021

Dan1988 said:
This particular Bible doctrine has divided the Church for many centuries. There are good arguments on both sides, so many decide to sit on the fence but I don't think any denomination allows it's members to sit on the fence. They force their members to take their side side or face ex communication.
I used to believe in the joint effort salvation model, but I ended up taking the "saved by grace alone through faith alone" model. My church teaches election and predestination, for which there are around 120 Bible verses to support it which is far more than those which seem to support the joint effort view.
I don't expect anyone who holds a to a different view to agree with me, some of the most learned Bible scholars and Theologians hold to opposing views on this question so I don't expect any ordinary garden variety Christians to agree with each other.
Most Christians believe it comes down to personal choice, they believe the Bible offers many different choices and many different paths to God and people from different cultures and ethnic groups have a different set of views.
The most famous Bible verse used to be John 3:16 and now it's Matthew 7:1 the modern Church teaches us not to judge anyone. The Pope is pushing for all faiths to join together, he believes every religion leads to God.

In my view, it's obvious from reading the Bible that Calvinism is clearly not true.
For there are so many problems and inconsistencies in Calvinism it's not even funny.
It's like flat earthers who hold to flat earth because they have 75 flat earth bible verses.
Yet, everyone knows that the earth is round.

For example:

Why did Jesus preach ‘except you repent, you shall all likewise perish’ when the non-elect can’t repent and the elect can’t perish? (See: Luke 13:5).

How can the Lord hold the non-elect accountable for ‘not believing’ and condemn them for it, when He purposely did not give them the faith to enable them to believe to begin with?

If Jesus had previously made atonement for the sins of an elect individual, do you believe they are lost during the period of time prior to their being saved?

Calvinism would be like creating a robot whereby you left it to it's own programming to kill people, and then you later put that robot on trial for murder. It would be illogical to judge the robot for killing if the robot had no other choice outside of it's programming to not kill. So a God who judges the wicked for something that they had no control over when God could have easily changed it for them places the blame of salvation on God and not the sinner. Why would God want to see them perish if He had the sole power to save them?

Here is another example: Imagine if you, your family, and a bunch of others are lost at sea, and a coast guard comes. However, imagine if you will that the coast guard saves everyone else out of the water, but he does not save you and your family. You ask him why he is not saving all of you, and he says... "No reason." As he drives away into the distance, would you not think it was unfair? Would you not think the coast guard was being mean, cold, and cruel? You sure would, unless you felt like you deserved to be treated unfairly or something.

Why would God punish the wicked at a Judgment if it was God who placed them there? It makes no sense. That would be like a dog owner who kicks his dog across the room (like a football) because it has an uncontrollable pooping problem (When the dog owner knows it has such a problem). The poor animal has no control over it's pooping function, and it is forced to release it's poop all over the carpet uncontrollably. Yet, the master of the animal does not care and he is going to punish the animal for something it has no control over. The dog owner is heartless. This is the view of God that I must believe in if Unconditional Election is true. But it is illogical. It is unbiblical. For my Bible says, "God is love." (1 John 4:8). My Bible says, "For God so loved the world..." (John 3:16).

2 Peter 2:1 says,
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”

It says here that there are false prophets and teachers who deny the Lord WHO BOUGHT THEM. How can the Lord buy false prophets and teachers if He only died for the elect? It makes no sense.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 says,
“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

It says that those who perish do so because THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH that they might be saved. It does not say they perish because God did not elect them. It also says that they received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT BE SAVED. In Calvinism, there is no such thing as MIGHT be saved.

1 John 2:2 says,
“He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world”

Jesus is not only the atoning sacrifice for us believers, but he is also the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. Calvinism does not believe that.

Free Will in the Bible Concerning God:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. “I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

Jonah chapter 3 is another big one that refutes Calvinism.

In this chapter we read about how Jonah had told the Ninevites that they would be overthrown in 40 days. But they cried out to God and forsaken their evil ways after hearing Jonah preach. When God noticed that they had forsaken their wickedness, that is when God turned back in bringing Judgment or wrath upon them. So the Ninevites were not saved because they were the Elect, but they were saved and escaped judgment because THEY changed the situation whereby God had shown mercy to them.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 23, 2021

MMXX said:
The thing with the rope scenario though is there's a difference between grabbing hold and being pulled up, and having to climb up the rope to be saved. I believe Dan1988 was addressing the latter scenario when he wrote:"So in summary, salvation is a joint effort. Jesus did His bit on the cross and we need to finish the job by being good citizens and paying our taxes etc."

Calvinism is just silly. It makes no sense when reading the Bible. Just as flat earth makes no sense when looking at the world around you. I addressed just the tip of the iceberg of the problems involving Calvinism in post #297.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 23, 2021

MMXX said:
It seems like the Holy Spirit is being left out regarding this. How do you see the Holy Spirit playing a part in this? Like if a Christian goes prodigal and falls into a state of spiritual death, how is it they come about to repenting to be restored to spiritual life? Do they do that completely on their own, or does it come about through the Holy Spirit prompting them?

Acts of the Apostles 5:32 says, “And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.”

Ceallaigh · Feb 23, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Hebrews 5:32 says, “And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.”

Is that the only scripture you know regarding the Holy Spirit helping us?

Paul did not teach Perpetual Belief Alone-ism for salvation.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Domer

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

May God be with you and bless you.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

May God be with you and bless you.

May God be with you and bless you.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

May God be with you and bless you.

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