Killing unborn babies -- is it a moral question or just politics?

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If the baby is deceased prenatally, this is always a tragedy for couples, and the medical standard of care is dilation and cuterage to remove the deceased. This is not abortion, unless the infant was intentionally killed.

There also exists on this point a double standard in US law: if someone shoots a pregnant woman or otherwise injures her, killing her baby, he is rightly charged with murder, but abortion is lawful, when the outcome is the same. It is equivalent to the double standard of doctor-assisted homicide, or dysthanasia as I prefer to call what is euphemistically referred to as “euthanasia.”

By "cuterage" do you mean curettage? There are quite a few people who erroneously think that dilation and curettage is equivalent to fetal murder.

Your example of a double standard is fallacious. If a baby is shot by a criminal that cannot be compared to a medical decision reached by a woman and her physician (and her husband) to terminate a pregnancy.

BTW, you are wrong about dysthanasia. It is not doctor-assisted homicide; it is a term generally used when a person is seen to be kept alive artificially in a condition where, otherwise, they cannot survive.

If you're going to use medical terminology you should learn the meaning of the words.
 
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BobRyan

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Anyone with compassion and a sound knowledge of OB/GYN medicine, who has the expertise to show that the fetus cannot survive outside the mother's womb. Would you prefer that the mother dies during childbirth? What if she has a husband and other children? Should they be obligated to experience her death because of somebody else's philosophy, even if they're not related to the person involved?

First you have to ask yourself if there is even any such thing as you are depicting... It is hard to imagine how that is even possible given modern medicine and options like c-sections. So because of something that is probably not even possible now days - people like Hillary want 3rd Trimester abortions, birthday abortions etc.

It makes no sense... yet the spector of that which is no longer even possible - pops up repeatedly in defense of killing the Baby in these discussions.
 
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BobRyan

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If a baby is shot by a criminal that cannot be compared to a medical decision reached by a woman and her physician (and her husband)

Because one form of murder is sanctioned and the other is not???

In the Bible you have "a life for life" in the case where someone damages a woman who is pregnant and her baby dies. –Exodus 21:22-23

"If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman's husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, ...." –Exodus 21:22-23

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The Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 (Public Law 108-212) is a United States law which recognizes an embryo or fetus in utero as a legal victim, if they are injured or killed during the commission of any of over 60 listed federal crimes of violence. The law defines "child in utero" as "a member of the species Homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb."[1]

The law is codified in two sections of the United States Code: Title 18, Chapter 1 (Crimes), §1841 (18 USC 1841) and Title 10, Chapter 22 (Uniform Code of Military Justice) §919a (Article 119a).

=======================

Question: Should Christianity convey "less value" for human life to Christians than a secular society already admits to knowing about?? Are Christians supposed to be "less moral" than secular society??
 
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The Liturgist

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Aside from that not being Biblical do you really think that the Eucharist should be earned? Who are you (or your church) to decide who can celebrate the death and resurrection of our Lord?

Romans 3:22b-24, "For there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But they are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

Salvation is not earned, it is a free gift, but according to the same Apostle Paul, communion can cause injury or death if partaken of unworthily. So that is Biblical, and I think the Exhortations for the Holy Communion service in the Anglican Book of Common Prayer explain the benefits of the Eucharist frequently consumed, and the importance of partaking with a clean conscience; the rubrics also give the Priest the ability to repel from the sacrament “a notorious evil liver.”

I didn’t make the rule; Matthew 16 gives clergy the power to bind and loose, 1 Corinthians 11:27-34 warns of the danger of partaking of Holy Communion while unworthy, and the canons of the early church strictly prohibited abortion and of those who repented, they were required to do years of penance before being readmitted to communion. But the Church has always had the power of oikonomia, to waive penances where they would do more harm than good as spiritual medicine, and at my church all that we require is contrition. I do suggest people who have been involved in an abortion come to me for private confession and absolution (we follow the Lutheran and Anglican model of “all may, some should, no one must), and it might be desirable if they feel they were in a state of apostasy that they be rechrismated. It might be spiritually beneficial if they anonymously or publicly denounced abortion and the harm it causes. However, if someone prays the prayer of general confession and receives the absolution during Matins or Vespers, or the Confiteor during the Eucharist, this is sufficient. And Baptism, which we follow with chrismation and communion, cleanses all sins.

I am in general opposed to “church discipline” of the 9Marks variety, so we don’t do that at all, and in our present society, I think severe penances like those imposed by the early church might cause people to become unchurched and are therefore something to be handed out only with the most extreme care. For example, if a particularly abusive person repeatedly had affairs and committed domestic violence, claimed repentance, but then did it again, and again, imposing a penance such as fasting and prayer might be appropriate.

In the case of baptized Christians who realize they have committed homicide and are generally penitent, guilt can be its own form of penance, and while some in the early church would only communicate a murderer in extremis, or after 35 years, in the case of murder punished by the state, if the person confesses to the authorities, that is penance enough, and in the case of abortion which is legal, although it ought not to be, it is basically a case of “go forth and sin no more.”

In the case of politicians and judicial officials who have legalized abortion, and high profile public supporters of it, they are what the Church of England would have called “notorious evil livers” and I think be might even be anathema under Galatians 1:8, and if one turned up at our church, I think they would be required to confess and be chrismated and agree to appropriate measures to mitigate the harm they have caused, because otherwise partaking of the Eucharist would be potentially extremely harmful for them, as an act of grave hypocrisy, and since the bishop or presbyter or abbot has pastoral responsibility, this means we are accountable to God if we intentionally or unintentionally harm someone through incompetent or malfeasant pastoral care, which includes distributing the Eucharist.
 
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The Liturgist

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By "cuterage" do you mean curettage? There are quite a few people who erroneously think that dilation and curettage is equivalent to fetal murder.

Your example of a double standard is fallacious. If a baby is shot by a criminal that cannot be compared to a medical decision reached by a woman and her physician (and her husband) to terminate a pregnancy.

BTW, you are wrong about dysthanasia. It is not doctor-assisted homicide; it is a term generally used when a person is seen to be kept alive artificially in a condition where, otherwise, they cannot survive.

If you're going to use medical terminology you should learn the meaning of the words.

Firstly, murder is murder. The fetus cannot consent in either scenario; the only difference is the identity of the shot-callers and the triggerman.

Secondly, I am aware of the pro-death lobby’s abuse of the term “dysthanasia,” a favorite of so-called “bio-ethicists,” whose idea of ethics is analogous to that of Scientologists, Communists and Nazis (as opposed to the minority of pro-life counselors at hospitals who have actually earned and merit the title of bioethicist), and it is vile and immoral; there are thousands of patients happy to be alive and with their loved ones in Neuro Care Units on permanent artificial respiration who the pro-death lobby would argue are in a state of “dysthanasia,” which I would argue is philosophically impossible because death is a discrete event and not a state; one is dead or alive, and therefore dysthanasia most properly refers to the evil practice of “putting down” those who are deemed too difficult or expensive to care for, while doctor assisted homicide is ostensibly assisted suicide, or self-murder, but really, consider the famous case of the bus driver in Oregon diagnosed with cancer; his insurance provider refused to cover life-saving treatment but “helpfully” offered to pay for “doctor assisted suicide,” which would in that case be morally equivalent to murder.
 
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The Liturgist

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Actually, when you think about it, the premeditation aspects of the pre-term infanticide and dysthanasia cases would, if the laws were fairly applied, constitute first degree murder, with pregnant women having abortions potentially guilty, most likely of second degree murder, but in some cases victims and in some cases guilty of solicitation to first degree murder. And all persons in these cases would be guilty of conspiracy.

But since the laws are not equitably enforced, what we really need to do is change the culture so that people everywhere want to make abortion illegal.
 
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First you have to ask yourself if there is even any such thing as you are depicting... It is hard to imagine how that is even possible given modern medicine and options like c-sections. So because of something that is probably not even possible now days - people like Hillary want 3rd Trimester abortions, birthday abortions etc.

It makes no sense... yet the spector of that which is no longer even possible - pops up repeatedly in defense of killing the Baby in these discussions.

I'm not sure what your news source is but it is really lacking. My wife was a certified nurse-midwife for decades and experienced first-hand the situation I described more than once. Pregnancy and childbirth is not without dangers to both the mother and the fetus. Fetuses can have fatal anomalies; they have zero chance of survival.
Actually, when you think about it, the premeditation aspects of the pre-term infanticide and dysthanasia cases would, if the laws were fairly applied, constitute first degree murder, with pregnant women having abortions potentially guilty, most likely of second degree murder, but in some cases victims and in some cases guilty of solicitation to first degree murder. And all persons in these cases would be guilty of conspiracy.

But since the laws are not equitably enforced, what we really need to do is change the culture so that people everywhere want to make abortion illegal.

And your legal definition of abortion is..? If a fetus has a fatal anomaly, there is no chance -- zero of that fetus surviving outside of the womb. Additionally, the situation poses a very serious, possibly fatal, threat to the mother. So, do you really think that both should die? Where is the compassion and/or human decency in forcing that woman to carry that fetus to term?

I am glad that you are neither my wife's physician or my lawyer! Who are you to set yourself up as the judge about who lives or dies, and under what conditions? Do you have a law degree or a medical degree? Or are you just setting yourself up as an (unqualified) judge of other people and their (often very difficult) own medical decisions?
 
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pescador

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If, as some claim, allowing children to die is against God's will...

a) Why do so many children die of other situations other than abortion? Why do some (innocent) children die, for example, of cancer?
b) Why did God allow all male children two years old and younger to be killed by Herod? Matthew 2:16, "When Herod saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, he became enraged. He sent men to kill all the children in Bethlehem and throughout the surrounding region from the age of two and under, according to the time he had learned from the wise men.
c) Why did God(!) kill all the firstborn boys in Egypt? Exodus 11, 4-6: Moses said, “This is what the Lord has said: ‘About midnight I will go throughout Egypt, and all the firstborn in the land of Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh who sits on his throne, to the firstborn son of the slave girl who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle. There will be a great cry throughout the whole land of Egypt, such as there has never been, nor ever will be again.

Instead of the usual (thoughtless) position of all abortions being murder, please answer these questions.
 
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pescador

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Actually, when you think about it, the premeditation aspects of the pre-term infanticide and dysthanasia cases would, if the laws were fairly applied, constitute first degree murder.
<snip>

Dysthanasia: is a term generally used when a person is seen to be kept alive artificially in a condition where, otherwise, they cannot survive. So, how is keeping a person alive "first degree murder"? It's actually just the opposite!!

Again, I'm glad that you're not my doctor or lawyer!!
 
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BobRyan

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I'm not sure what your news source is but it is really lacking. My wife was a certified nurse-midwife for decades and experienced first-hand the situation I described more than once. Pregnancy and childbirth is not without dangers to both the mother and the fetus. Fetuses can have fatal anomalies; they have zero chance of survival.

Babies die of illness or defect all the time - but they don't kill their mother before dying. You seem to be switching the point.
 
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Babies die of illness or defect all the time - but they don't kill their mother before dying. You seem to be switching the point.

I love you. Thank you for making me so happy with this beautiful defense of sacred life in the womb, as a brother in Christ.
 
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BobRyan

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I love you. Thank you for making me so happy with this beautiful defense of sacred life in the womb, as a brother in Christ.

You are welcomed :) --- and seriously what was my other choice? The idea of not killing babies in the womb is not complicated - it is the basic issue of the "value of human life" over the value of someone's "convenience".

Not very different from the issue of slavery in America in the 1800's - the same moral issue of the "value of human life".
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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So a woman is carrying a fetus that has zero chance of surviving outside the womb. Should she be forced to carry this fetus to term? Should she be forced to deliver a dead baby or one that cannot survive for a single hour on its own?
Should a baby's life in the womb be forfeit if the Mother decides she doesn't want it for purely economic reasons?

Look, I can ask hard questions too.
 
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BobRyan

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Should a baby's life in the womb be forfeit if the Mother decides she doesn't want it for purely economic reasons?

Look, I can ask hard questions too.

Or maybe she wants to go grocery shopping and it would be more convenient to do it without a baby.
Or maybe she does not want to get an SUV to carry all the baby luggage when she goes out.
Or maybe she does not live in a neighborhood where there are other women with babies to hang out with.

Who knows what might be driving that "choice". Could be anything.
 
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This perverted supreme "Choice Right" of those 'My-Belly-Belongs-To-Me-Feminist-Godesses", which the Human Right of Life of the baby has to be submitted to, is so obscure.

Contemplate this:

Killing babies is no big deal, but to mention anything against those supreme Gay-Gods is supposed to be such a reprehensible thing.
 
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Babies die of illness or defect all the time - but they don't kill their mother before dying. You seem to be switching the point.

That simply isn't true. A fetus can die in utero and kill the mother. I'm not switching anything. I'm simply pointing out that the knee-jerk reaction to the word "abortion" is too simplistic.
 
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BobRyan

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That simply isn't true. A fetus can die in utero and kill the mother. .

Not while dying. If it is in after it dies it can begin the decay process - but then removing it would not be the death of the baby or killing anything at all. I am pretty sure that the pro-abortion groups would be very unsatisfied with this sort of thing as the only "abortion" allowed. They want permission to go after live pre-born babies .. not merely the freedom to remove the ones that have already died.
 
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pescador

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Not while dying. If it is in after it dies it can begin the decay process - but then removing it would not be the death of the baby or killing anything at all. I am pretty sure that the pro-abortion groups would be very unsatisfied with this sort of thing as the only "abortion" allowed. They want permission to go after live pre-born babies .. not merely the freedom to remove the ones that have already died.

Say what?? You wrote, "I am pretty sure that the pro-abortion groups would be very unsatisfied with this sort of thing". What groups there are stress the importance of the Constitutional right of a woman to choose her personal medical care, as ruled by the Supreme Court. Do you think it's right for the government to interfere with your personal medical decisions? Or are you just going to go along with the distortion put forth by groups trying to eliminate a person's rights under the Constitution? What other rights should be surrendered to government?

Personally, I subscribe to what is taught in the Bible.
 
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sunlover1

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So a woman is carrying a fetus that has zero chance of surviving outside the womb. Should she be forced to carry this fetus to term? Should she be forced to deliver a dead baby or one that cannot survive for a single hour on its own?
What would Jesus say she should do?
 
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Anyone with compassion and a sound knowledge of OB/GYN medicine, who has the expertise to show that the fetus cannot survive outside the mother's womb. Would you prefer that the mother dies during childbirth? What if she has a husband and other children? Should they be obligated to experience her death because of somebody else's philosophy, even if they're not related to the person involved?
You ask a few questions.
What if she has a husband and other children?
I don't know. What would Jesus say to do.
That's what I'd do.
Would "I" prefer that the mom die rather than abort.
No. I'd do as God tells us to do and pray that they both live. IF that baby dies, I'd pray that it lives anyhow.
THAT's what's wrong with our church and now our world.
All talk no action!
 
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