And that relates to what I said about our corrupted dying bodies how? Do you not believe that you are not ageing? That’s a new one, never meet anyone who thought they weren’t going to die before.
Is it not important that we get the topic of salvation correct before we draw near to leaving this Earth?
That was what I was saying.
You said:
Also >cough< sister. I’m a woman, but that’s okay.
There is nothing in your short bio of each your posts that gave me any clue to your gender. If it is not obvious, I generally just assume one is male unless they make it clear otherwise because most are male posters here. On another forum, they used colored lettering (blue for men, and pink for women) to indicate whether one was male or female. Here is it is not so easy to tell unless I click on their profile and even then sometimes nobody has anything listed there and it's classified as private. But I don't usually click on a person's profile unless I like what they post.
You said:
Kind David was not in the same position as we are. He was credited as being righteous as was Noah and Abraham, this did not make them perfect.
I heard this more times then I care to count. While certain men of God did not know about Jesus like we do today and while they obeyed different laws, salvation and sin was not entirely different concept than it is today. Adam died spiritually when he ate of the wrong tree. God said in the day Adam would eat thereof, he would die (See: Genesis 2:17). But Adam did not drop dead physically the day he ate of the wrong tree. So naturally Adam died spiritually and he needed to be renewed back to God spiritually and become spiritually alive again.
You said:
6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.
You have to keep reading. Verses 9-12 say:
“Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision
only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which
he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which
he had being
yet uncircumcised.” (Romans 4:9-12).
The topic here is circumcision. Paul says in the previous chapter, “what profit is there in circumcision?”
What does this mean? Well, a certain sect of Jews wanted Christians to be saved by first being circumcised and or by keeping the whole of the Law of Moses.
- Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
- Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
- Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”
This is why Paul spoke against Law and works in the way that he did in the book of Romans, Galatians, and Corinthians. He was fighting against the heresy of what I call, "Circumcision Salvationism." This is basically saying that a person first had to be cirumcised in order to be saved and if a person believed this way, they would be making circumcision (a work or the Law) the basis of their salvation vs. making Christ the foundation of their salvation. Here are the words of Paul that allude to his attack upon this false belief.
- Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”
- Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
- Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
- Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”
- 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)
- Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
- Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”
- Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”
- Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”
But make no mistake: Paul later spoke of the necessity of the Sanctification Process as a part of salvation in other verses. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen us to salvation by:
(a) A belief in the truth (i.e. Jesus is the truth - Jhn 14:6).
(b) Sanctification of the Spirit (Sanctification is referring to works because verse 12 says that there are those who did not believe the truth, and had pleasure in unrighteousness; And verses 16-17 says that God and the Son has given us an eternal comfort in the hope of his grace, and that he would establish us in every good word and work).
Paul says in Titus 1:16 that we can deny God by a lack of works.
Titus 2:11-12 says the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously, sober, and godly in this present world.
Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and he gives grace to the humble. Paul says “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1). This is supported by Paul saying in the same chapter: “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13). To "live after the flesh" is to live after sin. To "mortify the deeds of the body" is to put to death sin out of one's body via by the Spirit. Paul is referring to spiritual life vs. spiritual death because he says in Romans 8:1 about the same thing in relation to the "Condemnation" (Note: To learn more about the "Condemnation" see: John 3:19-21, and take note that everyone who does evil hates the light.).
You said:
If a person has truly put their faith in Christ, commits a sin and gets hit with a bus in the middle of sinning, yes, they are saved. They are saved because of Christ, not by anything that they did.
If someone has backslid into a life of sin only God knows if they are still saved because only God can look upon their heart.
This is turning God's grace into a license for immorality that Jude 1:4 warns us against.
George Sodini murdered a bunch of people and then he took his own life. In his last words he left before he did these sins he said he would be forgiven of all future sin and Jesus paid the price for all his sins. This is disgusting. Surely George Sodini was not saved by having a belief alone in Jesus with him murdering a bunch of people followed by the taking of his own life. 1 John 3:15 says that if we hate our brother we are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abding in him.
You said:
Paul was most definitely a Christian when he wrote Romans.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
In Romans 7:14-24: Paul was not speaking from his perspective as a Christian, but he was speaking from his past experience of when he was under the false Pharisee religion that made salvation a system of works under the 613 Laws of Moses (that is no longer binding contract) with little to no grace. We are under a New Covenant with New Commands. The Old Covenant and it's laws ended at the cross. That's why the temple veil was torn from top to bottom. Anyways, I will address more of what you said in Romans 7:14-24 in another post (because such a reply would be too lengthy for this post).
You said:
Yes lets look at I Corinthians.
5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you.
I see two very important parts there.
First I see practiced premeditated sin. that a man has his father’s wife!
He didn’t accidentally sleep with his father’s wife. He knew exactly what he was doing, he planned and made a choose to do so.
Secondly and very importantly is the reaction after the act.
And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned,
So instead of being repentant about it, feeling horrible over their sin, they are rather pleased with themselves.
No Christian is happy with sin. No Christian should practice sin. But just because you don't practice sin does not mean you won't sin. Unless you are claiming to be as perfect as Jesus you will have faults.
Paul does not say that other believers can commit fornication in the church as long as they do not do so premeditatively. The point here is that if a believer is not to even eat with another brother if they are a fornicator, covetous, idolater, drunkard, etc.
“But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.” (1 Corinthians 5:11).
Why? They are not to eat with them? Because they are not a part of the body of Christ. They are justifying sin, and God does not justify sin.
You said:
Which going back to my first post is why I said good deeds flow naturally from being saved. Hating sin also flows naturally from being saved, but this does not mean we will never sin again. If the dog vomits over your pillow and you get angry you have sinned. You didn't plan to sin, your emotions rose up and you sinned. You may be quite sorry after for yelling later but you are not perfect, only God is perfect. Or would your wife if asked say yes you are perfect? I can tell you that I am not perfect and neither is my husband.
Not all sin is the same. There are sins that do not lead to death and sins that do not lead to death (1 John 5:16-17). Jesus even teaches us this truth and yet it just skates on by the masses. For Jesus said in Matthew 5:22 the following.
“But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be answerable to the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be answerable to the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.” (Matthew 5:22) (NASB).
In Matthew 5:22: The first two sins (the words colored in light blue) are punishable in this earthly life (non-mortal sins), and the last sin (the words colored in red) are punishable in hell (mortal sin).
Note: I am not Catholic or Orthodox by any means. I am what you would call Sola Scriptura. I believe in the “Bible alone + the Anointing to understand it.” I merely used the term “mortal sin” so as to help to understand where I am coming from. I call this “grievous sin” sometimes so as to distance myself from the RCC. But the reference to sin being grievous is mentioned in the Bible (in case you were wondering).
