Ceallaigh

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The way I see it all of us Christians are prone to sinning. Both sins of commission and omission. But we do not practice sin. To practice sin means practicing sin the way a doctor practices medicine. Practicing sin also means delighting in sin. Not seeing it as wrong and evil the way God does.

Some who are worried about the Gnostic teaching that turns God's grace into a license for immorality, go overboard in declaring that every single time we commit a sin, we lose our salvation, and we have to keep being born again over and over and over again.
 
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Ceallaigh

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There are two issues. First, I have run into Christians who say that you can mow down a crowd with a submachine gun and they would still be saved. This is turning God's grace into a license for immorality in Jude 1:4. George Sodini is a prime example of this. But obviously they don't believe any works are necessary. Second, the issue is about whether or not works (the works of God done through a believer) plays a part in the Sanctification Process as a part of God's plan of salvation for the believer's life. Do these works save? If you believe they don't save, then your teaching can influence others to think they do not have to do anything for God but just to believe on Him for salvation. For not everybody is like you. Remember, there are even atheists who do good works, too. But that does not mean they are saved. We also learn of certain believers who did wonderful works in the Lord's name but Jesus told them to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity, too (Matthew 7:23). He did not know them because they justified sin or a sin and still be saved type of belief that can lead others into turning God's grace into a license for immorality.

I'm not teaching anything. I'm asking questions and giving opinions regarding what you are teaching.
 
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setst777

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I'm not sure if you wrote all that to counter what I wrote or not. I'm in agreement, unless you mean to imply that what I said is wrong. Apparently many who post here do that --assuming that the verses they quote or things they say that are common to Christian Orthodoxy somehow extrapolate to counter what Reformed Theology says, or that what Reformed Theology says extrapolates to counter Scripture et al. Reformed Theologians do by no means deny the necessity of works. (Or the big one- they do NOT deny choice nor the will of the individual.)

Thank you for your response.

If you are in agreement, all is well. I would say though, that you are more likely of the view of Wesleyan Theology rather than Reformist if you agree with my responses.

Blessings
 
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Mark Quayle

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Thank you for your response.

If you are in agreement, all is well. I would say though, that you are more likely of the view of Wesleyan Theology rather than Reformist if you agree with my responses.

Blessings
Ah! So you are with the other guys, haha. (I laugh, because it often strikes me how close what someone says is to what I say, or even to what I mean, and then on closer inspection I find they don't mean by it what I took them to mean). I am most definitely not of Wesleyan persuasion. Yet what you said sounded curiously close to Reformed.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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What if this Christian murdered a poor old lady, and then confessed, and then he got hit by a bus, and died. Is he still saved?

Yes, because he expressed that he was sorry to the Lord while on this earth. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Proverbs 28:13 basically says that he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy. A person cannot confess of their sins or seek forgiveness with Jesus after they are dead. It would no longer be a part of the faith anymore.
 
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How does "works are a part of eternal life" (did I use those words, or is than an extraplation? Anyway,) contradict works do not cause salvation? I see no problem there. 'Being a part of' does not constitute 'contributes to'. A kid may be on the team, but contributing toward the win is a whole different thing. Yet this is even farther removed from that. One does nothing for God, in and of oneself. Apart from the Spirit, nobody loves God, nobody desires Christ, nobody does good, compliance with the law is not submission to the law --not obedience, repentance by the flesh is still enmity with God.

"Welling doing"? I'm honestly not sure what you are trying to say. "Well in doing"? "Doing by will"? Anyway, Works are a part of eternal life, but do not cause eternal life. Why is that hard to understand? Eternal life is the gift of God, and the work of God. Our involvement does not increase the effect in some way, as though God's was insufficient. Our involvement is IN HIM, TRHOUGH HIM, BY HIM. It is not as though the sum of the activities of both God and Human was greater than God's alone.

Apart from Christ can do nothing. There is no contradiction.


I am sorry to hear from you this affirmation of what I thought you might be saying, to begin with --that works Save. The problem you perceive, with your quote concerning the fruit tree only further shows the difference. The tree must produce fruit. If it does not, it is destroyed. Reformed theology says the same. The fruit demonstrates, identifies, the tree. It does not cause the tree.

God alone chose and created this new creation we are. He did so in order that we would produce good works. We cannot give ourselves new birth.

I hesitate to think you actually believe the doctrine you claim here.

Again, you are not reading and believing Galatians 6:8-9. Just read the context and it does not sound like Calvinism.

7 “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

Paul is writing to Galatian believers and he tells them to.... BE NOT DECEIVED in verse 7. Deceived about what? Whatever a man sows that shall he reap (verse 7). But in Calvinism one does not need to worry about this if they are elected to God for salvation because they are just going to automatically do what God wants in time, right? Verse 9 even gives us the possibility that the brethren can possibily faint. Paul tells them to not be weary in well doing. For in due season they shall reap IF they faint not. Paul does not bring up anything about how they must be elect in order to faint not. So again, your not reading and believing this passage. He that sows to flesh (sin) shall reap corruption (verse 8). Yet, Christians say that all their sins are forgiven of Jesus and they believe they can sin and still be saved on some level. He that sows to the Spirit shall reap life everlasting (verse 8). Paul does not say that he that sows to the Spirit does so because he is elected or changed by God. Paul talks about how they should not be deceived in whatever a man sows that shall he reap. Paul gives us two different life choices. Sow to the Spirit and live forever, and or sow to the flesh and reap corruption. He is saying not to be deceived on this matter. This does not make sense in Calvinism. Neither does it make any sense in Non-Reformed Sola Fide churches, either. For they believe you can sin and still be saved on some level. Yet, Paul is teaching the exact opposite of that. Paul says be not deceived, the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God and then he lists the kinds of people who are embodied by those sins like drunkards, fornicators, thieves, etc. (See: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10).
 
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That is what I did, and lo and behold, years later, I find out what I believe almost in every way is Reformed Theology.

You suggest they read the verses like a child, one at a time, and do not consider them together. That they read simplistically, without exegesis, as though it was written in the native tongue of each reader, present day, during a life they each are familiar with, from the point of view of each: AKA Eisegesis.



Paul never taught Salvation is caused by human works. He, as James et al, taught that regeneration CAUSES works (therefore, make every effort). I know they look the same to you, but "accompanied by works" is not the same thing as "accomplished by works".

You are not really dealing with what the text says in Galatians 6:7-10, though.
 
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Perhaps you can show a quote from someone on this site that believes one can sin with abandon, and still have reason to believe they belong to Christ. I for one say such a thing is worse than silly; God is not mocked. But I don't recall ever seeing where anybody else says that.

It only takes one grievous unconfessed sin to separate a believer from GOD.

#1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes one act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes one act of adultery to be an adulterer.

#2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at a woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

#3. John says, "No murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

#4. Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."

#5. Jesus Himself says that just looking at a woman in lust (Which is adultery) is potential for a person to be cast bodily in hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30).

#6. David needed to confess of his sin in order to be forgiven (See Psalms 51).

#7. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

#8. Revelation 21:8 says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Murderers and whoremongers will be cast into the lake of fire. All liars will be cast into the lake of fire. ALL liars, and not just some. NO murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).
 
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If what you say is true, then none of the Elect die without having repented. So your scenario is an impossible fiction.

However, you have not answered the point --let me put it another way: We all hold some sins dear to us, and may not even realize we do so. The habit of anger may stay with us til the day we die, though we have done all we know to do to let go of it. Gluttony, etc, you name it --some have no conviction concerning the things others of us see in them. We think to have repented of them, but a broken and contrite heart he will not despise. 'Sins' are the result of sin in us. Have we repented of our sin? Is God not carving it out of us? Does our sinfulness not break our hearts?

I fully expect my loved ones, the believers, that is, most of them Arminian-leaning as are you, to be in Heaven, just as do they expect me, though many of them find my Reformed Theology detestable, as I find their notion that God must bow to 'free will', detestable. To my mind concerning them, and to their mind concerning me, the opposing point of view demonstrates a heart that still clings to sin, perhaps the love of self-determination, or the laziness toward duty. Yet we none of us believe the other is lost. They, as you, no doubt, do not consider that they love self-determination. I do not consider God's choice of the Elect to be an excuse to be lazy. You see a murderer hit by a bus. What does God, who looks on the heart, see?

But we will all be measured by the standard with which we judge others.

Paul says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2 Corinthians 7:1). This does not sound like Paul's words align with your words here.
 
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Hebrews 6 seems to counter that notion. "It is impossible"

Hebrews 6:4-6 is dealing with apostasy in rejecting Jesus as one's Savior and it is not referring to going prodigal like in the Parable of the Prodigal Son, or like in the situation involving James 5:19-20.
 
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We really only care what Jesus taught. Paul wasn't there.

What are you talking about?
What does Paul's location have to do with anything?
By saying that we only really care about what Jesus taught, are you saying Paul is not an apostle and that he should not be listened to?
 
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setst777

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Ah! So you are with the other guys, haha. (I laugh, because it often strikes me how close what someone says is to what I say, or even to what I mean, and then on closer inspection I find they don't mean by it what I took them to mean). I am most definitely not of Wesleyan persuasion. Yet what you said sounded curiously close to Reformed.

Interesting that my responses to you sound curiously close to reformed. All other reformists hearing my similar responses attempt to attack my position. So, whether you know it or not, I think you are more in line with Wesleyan Theology than you think.

Blessings.
 
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It seems Bible Highlighter is saying that according to the Bible each time you sin you have to become born again.

Nowhere did I say you must be born again every time you sin. I said I honestly do not know what happens when a believer dies spiritually and they are converted back again to the saving of their soul. We look through a glass darkly. So again, I am saying I do not know what happens when a believer goes from “spiritual death” to “spiritual life again” according to the Parable of the Prodigal Son (See: Luke 15:24, Luke 15:32), and according to James 5:19-20. I do regard being born again as definitely the time of when we first come to Christ and we were changed spiritually. But beyond that, the Scriptures do not say.

You said:
I guess that means you should get baptized again each time as well.

I believe the one and only baptism in Ephesians 4:5 is in reference to 1 Corinthians 12:13. It is a believer being baptized into the Spirit and made to drink of the Spirit when they first accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. It is a baptism of the Spirit that all true believers have partaken in automatically as a part of receiving Jesus. It is the receiving of the Holy Spirit, and not John's baptism in water that the Jewish apostles kept doing without understanding what Jesus meant about being baptized into the Spirit.

I made my case here with Scripture (if you are interested):

What is the “one baptism” mentioned in Ephesians 4:5? (Note: I am not asking because I don't know).

Please do not address this particular topic here. Thank you.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Interesting that my responses to you sound curiously close to reformed. All other reformists hearing my similar responses attempt to attack my position. So, whether you know it or not, I think you are more in line with Wesleyan Theology than you think.

Blessings.
I was brought up semi-Wesleyan, (that is, Arminian leaning --I never heard of such things as 'a second work of grace' or 'I never sin anymore' like I have heard from some Wesleyans, until after I was grown). I didn't convert, as such, to 'the Reformed Faith'. To me, our faith is all one and the same, if indeed we are of the Elect. But my frustration with my own inability to measure up was resolved, not by Reformed Doctrine, but realizing that God is doing whatever he does for his own sake, and that this life is not about this life. I had been busy, but I didn't know what God was doing.

Ha! that is maybe the shortest version of my testimony I have ever written. Anyhow, I hope you agree with me that God is omnipotent, and gracious, and loving, and will indeed accomplish all he set out to do.

God bless you too.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Hebrews 6:4-6 is dealing with apostasy in rejecting Jesus as one's Savior and it is not referring to going prodigal like in the Parable of the Prodigal Son, or like in the situation involving James 5:19-20.
Well, what'ya know! You and I agree on something!

That's why it says, 'it is impossible' (for the Elect).
 
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Mark Quayle

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Paul says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2 Corinthians 7:1). This does not sound like Paul's words align with your words here.
Oh my goodness! So Paul speaking of cleansing ourselves of spiritual filthiness counters what I say, that we have spiritual filthiness? As Biden would say, "C'mon, man!"
 
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Mark Quayle

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It only takes one grievous unconfessed sin to separate a believer from GOD.

#1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes one act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes one act of adultery to be an adulterer.

#2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at a woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

#3. John says, "No murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

#4. Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."

#5. Jesus Himself says that just looking at a woman in lust (Which is adultery) is potential for a person to be cast bodily in hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30).

#6. David needed to confess of his sin in order to be forgiven (See Psalms 51).

#7. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

#8. Revelation 21:8 says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Murderers and whoremongers will be cast into the lake of fire. All liars will be cast into the lake of fire. ALL liars, and not just some. NO murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).
So, you can't quote someone on this site saying that one can sin with abandon, and still have reason to believe they belong to Christ.

Why do you instead continue with this theme, that I don't dispute? Did you even read my post, before answering?
 
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Mark Quayle

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You are not really dealing with what the text says in Galatians 6:7-10, though.
Here we go again.

Galatians 6:7-10 --I will post it here, for reference sake:

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

8 For he that soweth unto his own flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth unto the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap eternal life.

9 And let us not be weary in well-doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

10 So then, as we have opportunity, let us work that which is good toward all men, and especially toward them that are of the household of the faith.

Alright. so your point that I have not addressed is what? There is nothing in those verses that I oppose. We do work, we should work, we must work, it is good to work, good works is of the Spirit, is according to the Spirit, and we are motivated to do works, and we will to work, and works yields results.

If I understand you right, you keep insisting that I deny works are necessary for a believer to do. I do not deny that. I only deny that works of the person involved cause their salvation, and like that, I deny that any good works the regenerated Elect does is of their own motivation apart from the Spirit of God.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Nowhere did I say you must be born again every time you sin. I said I honestly do not know what happens when a believer dies spiritually and they are converted back again to the saving of their soul. We look through a glass darkly. So again, I am saying I do not know what happens when a believer goes from “spiritual death” to “spiritual life again” according to the Parable of the Prodigal Son (See: Luke 15:24, Luke 15:32), and according to James 5:19-20. I do regard being born again as definitely the time of when we first come to Christ and we were changed spiritually. But beyond that, the Scriptures do not say.

It seems to me you reduced it from apostasy to having a sinful thought. When you asked if a Christian has a lustful thought, and gets hit by a bus before he confesses it, is he saved? It seems to me you think the answer is no. From what I recall, you said as much in another thread. That would mean every time a Christian sins, they become unsaved and have to be born again.

I believe the one and only baptism in Ephesians 4:5 is in reference to 1 Corinthians 12:13. It is a believer being baptized into the Spirit and made to drink of the Spirit when they first accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. It is a baptism of the Spirit that all true believers have partaken in automatically as a part of receiving Jesus. It is the receiving of the Holy Spirit, and not John's baptism in water that the Jewish apostles kept doing without understanding what Jesus meant about being baptized into the Spirit.

The way I figure it if a Christian has to confess each sin to get their salvation back, to be born again, again, the whole process would have to be repeated each time.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Paul is writing to Galatian believers and he tells them to.... BE NOT DECEIVED in verse 7. Deceived about what? Whatever a man sows that shall he reap (verse 7). But in Calvinism one does not need to worry about this if they are elected to God for salvation because they are just going to automatically do what God wants in time, right?
Wrong. Dead wrong. You are fighting a strawman. And wearing yourself out doing so.
 
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