Are Demons Fallen Angels?

genez said:

Sir? Would you like a couple of hours of teaching to cover what you requested? It would take that long to fully inform you of what you do not yet know.

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From you?
I have no interest in the chaos in your head that you call theology.

Will you say that what I said is all balderdash and poppycock, and dismiss it?

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I dismiss it with no less contempt than you dismiss my posts.

Francis Drake said:

From you?
I have no interest in the chaos in your head that you call theology.

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From me? Not at all.

But, from someone who was invited by the student body of MIT to be a guest speaker. He has spoken at various universities for the same reason.

Me teach you? I am not qualified to teach on such a level. R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries | Home

Many a pastor has ordered his messages to be used as reference material for their own study.

Relax, please.. What I teach on certain issues is not what he has taught.

I was just listening the other day to a message he did years ago how he loved Margaret Thatcher and explained the principles she stood for. He also explained why England had become such a mess before she took the reigns for a short while. He taught history on a PhD level.

I would not be so foolish to try to teach you on that level..

Francis Drake said:

I am just someone who loves the scriptures and constantly seeks God for wisdom. I back every point I make from scripture, but other than to refute what I say, you present absolutely no scriptural evidence as to why. Can you give me some evidence for your stance, and please don't quote Chalcedon or any other irrelevance.

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I'm sure you are familiar with the passages that indicate Christ's pre-existence. You already believe this. You believe that he "emptied" himself completely of his divinity but had the power of the Holy Spirit. This sounds like he exchanged one divinity with a different divinity as though there were 2 or 3 different deities whereas the Bible says:

• "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (Col. 2:9, NASB).

Luke 1:35 The angel replied to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore, the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

Andrewn said:

I'm sure you are familiar with the passages that indicate Christ's pre-existence. You already believe this. You believe that he "emptied" himself completely of his divinity but had the power of the Holy Spirit.

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I'm not sure how I worded it previously, but I have never believed he emptied himself of that actual divinity. I have merely stated that he never operated from that divinity during his ministry. Everything he did came from the power of the Holy Spirit anointing he received at his baptism.
If you disagree, please tell me why.

This sounds like he exchanged one divinity with a different divinity as though there were 2 or 3 different deities whereas the Bible says:

• "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (Col. 2:9, NASB)

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This is unchallengeable truth, but still doesn't help your case one iota.

Luke 1:35 The angel replied to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore, the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

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What's your point in posting this again when it adds absolutely nothing to your argument. The first half is directly addressed to Mary, not Jesus.
The second half refers to her baby as the Son Of God, which I have never disputed

You keep challenging me, but never address the scriptures I post to back my stance. Please address that instead of repeating stuff I have disproved already.
I am willing to listen, but your scriptures do not address your points. Go find some better ones if you can find them.

Christ was very and almighty God from all eternity. What He always was, He never ceased to be.

His kenosis was not a divesting of His divinity, but was the humility in becoming a human being, a servant, and suffering death on the cross. That is what is meant that He emptied Himself. He did not exploit His Deity, but was humble, He willingly embraced the shame and humiliation of the cross.

-CryptoLutheran

Andrewn said:

I'm sure you are familiar with the passages that indicate Christ's pre-existence. You already believe this. You believe that he "emptied" himself completely of his divinity but had the power of the Holy Spirit. This sounds like he exchanged one divinity with a different divinity as though there were 2 or 3 different deities whereas the Bible says:

• "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (Col. 2:9, NASB).

Luke 1:35 The angel replied to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore, the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

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The Lord before the Incarnation was being as God in Heaven. His Deity could do as his soul willed it to. He did not have to pray to the Father first. If he wanted to part the Red sea? He simply willed it to part, and it would.

As man, he now had to do as divinity willed his humanity to do. His humanity could never will Deity to do his desire. He was the obedient Son.He would always pray asking for his desire to be done.

Now, when Jesus was as a man? If God wanted to part the Red sea? Jesus as a man would have gone along with God's will and been a part of the unfolding, but not being the will of the one the executing of it. There is the difference.

God's power would be fully there with the miracles of Jesus. But, by who's will was God doing things? Before the Incarnation it could be the Son being the one directly directing God's power. In contrast, during the Incarnation the Son always had obeisance to the Father's will.

That took place because He had denied Himself to His right to be as God!

Now? His will is God's will!

Please note..

God is not soul. Jesus said that God is "spirit." A soul is a different essence than what constitutes 'spirit' essence. For example, we who are regenerate are body, soul, and spirit.

In conclusion...

The Lord God of Israel before the Incarnation had not yet a human body. But, as I will show in the OT Scriptures, the Lord Jehovah of Israel always had two natures that were in union.

Those natures are Deity and a Soul. I believe if more believers understood this reality it would make it easier to understand how the Lord God of Israel could choose make Himself become as a man... By choosing to utilize one of His natures to make Himself become as a man. I have included some of those OT passages to show the dual nature union specifically of the Lord God of Israel.


Notice how it was the "Soul of Jehovah" that expresses human attributes.

Having two natures in Union makes the Son different than the Father!


grace and peace....

Under One King said:

Demons aren't humans. They are spirits. Possibly from humans who have died apart from God.

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They are fallen angels as Rev 12 and Matt 12 point out - the "prince of demons" is the devil and those demons are called angels in Rev 12 "the devil and his angels".

April_Rose said:

Yeah,.. I've read through the whole entire Bible and I definitely missed this part. No offense to you or God or the Bible,.. but it sounds like some sort of a science fiction or something.

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Well, Moses certainly wrote what was already well known, and did not need to elaborate as it was already written
Genesis 6 moses wrote sons of Elohym took/ married daughters of Adam and went in to them, and giants were born. Moses makes it plain that sons of God did that before the flood and also after that.
Jude, womb brother of Jesus, also wrote to comment about it.
Also, the giants before the flood were taller than after the flood.
Also, some, in the days of Moses, were as tall as oak trees.
Israel killed all the giants in the land after they entered under Joshua, fighting many battles with them until there were none within their boundaries, but there were many in other parts of the globe, and even today, though smaller in stature.
Jesus said they are the tares who will be gathered up by the angels and cast into the lake of fire, with no judgment then, because God the Word gave their doom already, through Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam.
If you ask a question but are not willing to do research, then you are just gathering opinions and will be ignorant of the matter in the end.
The real Book of Enoch, chapters 14, 15, tell exactly what they are, and what their judgment is, and why they roam earth until Jesus returns to judge the world.
They are not fallen angels. They are evil spirits on earth when disembodied. Those who walk in the stolen Adam flesh bodies are not human in spirit, but are tares

yeshuasavedme said:

Well, Moses certainly wrote what was already well known, and did not need to elaborate as it was already written
Genesis 6 moses wrote sons of Elohym took/ married daughters of Adam and went in to them, and giants were born.

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1. John 1:12 says "to as many as received Him - to them he gave the right to be called the sons of Elohim". Sons of God are God's people.

2. The text does not say that those born the marriages were giants. It just says that giants existed at that time before the flood -- and also after the flood. So then Noah and his family were among them.

yeshuasavedme said:

Also, the giants before the flood were taller than after the flood.

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No Bible text says that, and Noah and his family were the same size both before and after the flood. As for later generations - yes they were getting shorter over time.

yeshuasavedme said:

Also, some, in the days of Moses, were as tall as oak trees.

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No they were not.

yeshuasavedme said:

Jesus said they are the tares who will be gathered up by the angels

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Jesus never mentioned giants.

The real Book of Enoch, chapters 14, 15, tell exactly what they are,

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The book of Enoch was not known to any OT Bible writer.

They are not fallen angels. They are evil spirits on earth when disembodied.

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Demons are fallen angels -- no Bible text says they were ever "disembodied".

BobRyan said:

Demons are fallen angels -- no Bible text says they were ever "disembodied".

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Yet, the Bible always reveals them (while on earth) as being disembodied. Its only God's angels that are shown to have the ability to materialize on earth.

Theory. When man fell man died "spiritually." Man became body and soul. Not more body, soul and human spirit.. as Adam was created to be.

Conversely.. Angels by default are spirit. No matter what their status (elect, or fallen) .. unlike us, they remained spiritual. The things of God are always evident to them. When Jesus cast out demons they knew who he was. Men who were unbeliever could not know who Jesus was. Fallen angels remain spiritual,

for man? Unless he becomes born again? He can not know the things that are spiritual.

When man fell? He remain with body and soul. Yet, spiritually dead.

The kind of death that angels experienced when they fell was not spiritual. But, to be denied a physical manifestation while on earth in the physical world. That is why they crave a physical body to possess. Even if it be a body of a swine, as witnessed to when demons were cast out of Legion by the Lord.

genez said:

Yet, the Bible always reveals them (while on earth) as being disembodied.

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No it doesn't. No text says the angels (fallen or not ) were "separated from their body some unknown time ago".

genez said:

Its only God's angels that are shown to have the ability to materialize on earth.

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No Bible text says that and Matt 4 apparently refutes it.

BobRyan said:

No it doesn't. No text says the angels (fallen or not ) were "separated from their body some unknown time ago".



No Bible text says that and Matt 4 apparently refutes it.

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Where in Matthew 4? Keep in mind Jesus did not need to see any physical manifestation of Satan to see and hear Satan in the Spirit. Look at the demons after they were cast out of Legion. They had no bodies but were able to communicate and beg Jesus to allow them to enter into the herd of swine. They craved being inside a body.

The Bible at times tells us somethings that leaves us wondering how it can be. Then with gaining more knowledge the Bible will supply details to be used to explain why it is so.

OK... Show me one passage were demons are bodily visible to human beings? All references to demons concerning interaction with humans are without a physical body.

Yet, God's angels are shown to be able to take on physical form. We are even told to be hospitable to strangers because some have entertained angels unawares! (Heb 13:2)

Those two contrasts between God's elect angels and invisible demons should make us wonder why that is so. And, make one wonder why demons crave to possess a body.. even swine, if need be. After all, why beg to enter a body of a pig if one already has a body?

Other than that? You sound closed-minded and unwilling to think outside of what you want to limit Biblical reality to. Its not always spelled out for you in black and white. If it did? Paul would not have prayed for our ability to gain insight from gaining enough knowledge to do so.

The Bible does not spell out everything black and white like you demand it to be. That is for those who do not want to think with knowledge of God's Word and the Spirit''s guidance.

What I showed you (and now appear to wish to make go away) was the result of an answer to a prayer given by Paul... as follows:


Your way of thinking? Destroys that process. At least, so far it does.

BobRyan said:

YSM: “Some of the giants in the days of Moses were as tall as oak trees.”
No they were not.

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Oh my error, I was going from memory. They were as tall as cedars and as strong as oaks.
I am a bit surprised that you were not even aware of the Scriptures on the height of the Amorite giants.

Amos 2:9 “Yet it was I who destroyed the Amorite before them,
Whose height was like the height of the cedars,
And he was as strong as the oaks;
Yet I destroyed his fruit above
And his roots beneath.

Cedars on our property in WA state averaged about 130’ tall, according to my husband, who was a forester and log hauler.
YHWH said they were as tall as cedars and as strong as oaks.
That is Bible.

Numbers 13:33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

yeshuasavedme said:

Oh my error, I was going from memory. They were as tall as cedars and as strong as oaks.
I am a bit surprised that you were not even aware of the Scriptures on the height of the Amorite giants.

Amos 2:9 “Yet it was I who destroyed the Amorite before them,
Whose height was like the height of the cedars,
And he was as strong as the oaks;
Yet I destroyed his fruit above
And his roots beneath.

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Fruit and roots as of a tree are not literal.
Christ healed a man of blindness who said "I see men walking like trees"... does not mean that the men of Christ's day were as tall as trees.

I am not arguing against giants before and also after the flood - because compared to us a 12 foot tall man is a giant no matter how you slice it. But is not as tall as a tree.

yeshuasavedme said:

Oh my error, I was going from memory. They were as tall as cedars and as strong as oaks.
I am a bit surprised that you were not even aware of the Scriptures on the height of the Amorite giants.

Amos 2:9 “Yet it was I who destroyed the Amorite before them,
Whose height was like the height of the cedars,
And he was as strong as the oaks;
Yet I destroyed his fruit above
And his roots beneath.

Cedars on our property in WA state averaged about 130’ tall, according to my husband, who was a forester and log hauler.
YHWH said they were as tall as cedars and as strong as oaks.
That is Bible.

Numbers 13:33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

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Figures of speech were used by the ancients used to describe men of great height, but not intended to be taken literally. It would be like someone sitting at the kitchen table telling someone.... "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse!"

And? Likewise: To describe very tall people in their day, some might refer to some people as Nephilim to use a Biblical term to convey an idea.

Today some may say about a very tall and large woman .. "She is a real amazon!" Just like the Jews referred to tall tribal people as "Nephilim." It did not mean these people were actual offspring like we found in Genesis 6.

I caught you.

You were not even aware of the YHWH'S OWN WORDS on the height of the Amorite giants.

Amos 2:9 “Yet it was I who destroyed the Amorite before them,
Whose height was like the height of the cedars,
And he was as strong as the oaks,
Mature cedar trees are over 100’ tall.
YHWH said they were as tall as cedars and as strong as oaks.
That is Bible.

Numbers 13:33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

April_Rose said:

I think that the title question is pretty self-explanatory. Since Satan was an angel that rebelled against God are his other demons? What happened anyways? And why did God create angels (especially Satan the worst of them all) like them if He knew (which He obviously did) that they would turn against Him? Angels are supposed to be perfect like Jesus.

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The answer is a resounding “yes.” This is the Christian doctrine agreed on by all of the early church fathers. One of the best books about them is The Life of St. Anthony, by Athanasius of Alexandria; also, the Ladder of Divine Ascent by John Climacus, written in the fourth and sixth centuries, and in the 19th century, The Arena by the 19th century Russian bishop St. Ignatius Brianchaninov. All of these books deal primarily with monasticism, but monasticism consists largely of spiritual warfare, because once a monk overcomes worldly passions, the devil attacks more ferociously and attempts to cause spiritual delusion.

The Liturgist said:

The answer is a resounding “yes.” This is the Christian doctrine agreed on by all of the early church fathers. One of the best books about them is The Life of St. Anthony, by Athanasius of Alexandria; also, the Ladder of Divine Ascent by John Climacus, written in the fourth and sixth centuries, and in the 19th century, The Arena by the 19th century Russian bishop St. Ignatius Brianchaninov. All of these books deal primarily with monasticism, but monasticism consists largely of spiritual warfare, because once a monk overcomes worldly passions, the devil attacks more ferociously and attempts to cause spiritual delusion.

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I would like to point out that the so called early church fathers were NOT the fathers of the Church of Jesus Christ, but wrote their opinions centuries AFTER He founded His Church on Himself as Chief cornerstone and His twelve Apostles as the twelve foundational stones, as Scripture shows.

yeshuasavedme said:

I would like to point out that the so called early church fathers were NOT the fathers of the Church of Jesus Christ, but wrote their opinions centuries AFTER He founded His Church on Himself as Chief cornerstone and His twelve Apostles as the twelve foundational stones, as Scripture shows.

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Not only that. Peter warned his own congregation to be very careful about those to follow him...




Take note! The Catholic church should learn to be quiet instead of boasting of being founded by those who followed the Apostles in leadership! Peter is not giving that a good endorsement!