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How can people persist in not getting this very simply point? Works necessarily flow from a real Faith. But they don't contribute to our chances of being saved. Therefore, we may say that they are "part of" the picture...but not the cause of the successful outcome.

What's so hard to understand about that?

The problem in saying that works will flow out of a true belief (faith) in Jesus and yet on the other hand saying that good works do not save can basically lead a person wrongfully rationalize that they do not need any good works because they do not save. For do you believe that if a person has no good works, they are not saved? If so, then they play a part in salvation. They would be a part of the salvation equation in some way. If faith alone (belief) is truly the only thing that saves, then you don't need works. Even if you believed that a true faith (belief) saves and it will always lead to showing good works, these works would then be necessary as a part of salvation because they are evidence of your salvation. They are connected. Thus works are needed as a part of salvation. But if works do not save in any way, then one can just believe in Jesus and have no works and they can be saved. Follow the logic now.
 
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coffee4u

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Yes, Paul taught that we must believe in Jesus and His grace, and in the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, but this was not Belief Alone-ism with the exclusion of living holy afterwards.

Paul did preach in faith alone. It is from faith that holy living naturally flows the same way a blocked river flows once the boulder in the way is removed. The river does not think or plan what it can do, it flows naturally.

It is not faith + deeds
It is faith-deeds.

If there is no natural flow and change then there was no true faith to begin with.
This is why we shall know them by their fruits.

We need instruction as well because we are fallen beings.
Matthew 26:41
"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

We are flesh, soul and spirit. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
A river is just a river, it doesn't get sidetracked by thoughts and temptations.
 
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Paul did preach in faith alone. It is from faith that holy living naturally flows the same way a blocked river flows once the boulder in the way is removed. The river does not think or plan what it can do, it flows naturally.

It is not faith + deeds
It is faith-deeds.

If there is no natural flow and change then there was no true faith to begin with.
This is why we shall know them by their fruits.

We need instruction as well because we are fallen beings.
Matthew 26:41
"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

We are flesh, soul and spirit. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
A river is just a river, it doesn't get sidetracked by thoughts and temptations.

See my recent post #161.
 
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Albion

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The problem in saying that works will flow out of a true belief (faith) in Jesus and yet on the other hand saying that good works do not save can basically lead a person wrongfully rationalize that they do not need any good works because they do not save.
Well, it would be impossible to set every person straight about every aspect of the Christian faith, but that doesn't mean we cannot get straight what these Faith vs. Works debates are all about and what the Bible says about it.

For do you believe that if a person has no good works, they are not saved?
I don't think I am capable of keeping score on all that any other person does in that regard, but I do know that if a person simply claims the Faith but (as James pointed out in his Epistle) has no desire to amend his life and live as Christ taught, he's only fooling himself.
 
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Albion

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Paul did preach in faith alone. It is from faith that holy living naturally flows the same way a blocked river flows once the boulder in the way is removed. The river does not think or plan what it can do, it flows naturally.
I love the analogy!
 
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Paul did preach in faith alone. It is from faith that holy living naturally flows the same way a blocked river flows once the boulder in the way is removed. The river does not think or plan what it can do, it flows naturally.

It is not faith + deeds
It is faith-deeds.

If there is no natural flow and change then there was no true faith to begin with.
This is why we shall know them by their fruits.

We need instruction as well because we are fallen beings.
Matthew 26:41
"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

We are flesh, soul and spirit. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
A river is just a river, it doesn't get sidetracked by thoughts and temptations.

You also say we are fallen beings. That is not how the Christian life should be. Please. Just please read and believe 2 Corinthians 7:1.
 
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Albion

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You also say we are fallen beings. That is not how the Christian life should be. Please. Just please read and believe 2 Corinthians 7:1.
We ARE fallen. We are not what Adam and Eve were initially.

That is why we had to have a Savior. If not, we couldn't have saved ourselves. The main theme of the Bible is that God so loved the world that he did for us what we were not able to do on our own.
 
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Well, it would be impossible to set every person straight about every aspect of the Christian faith, but that doesn't mean we cannot get straight what these Faith vs. Works debates are all about and what the Bible says about it.


I don't think I am capable of keeping score on all that any other person does in that regard, but I do know that if a person simply claims the Faith but (as James pointed out in his Epistle) has no desire to amend his life and live as Christ taught, he's only fooling himself.

Jesus is compared to a vine or tree, right?
The fruit of Jesus Christ in our life would be the fruits of the Spirit like love, joy, peace, etc.
When you look at a tree in your neighborhood, and you see fruit on that tree, do you say that the fruit has no relationship between the tree? Do you say that the fruit is not in any way related? So if the tree brings life, then surely the fruit that comes from the tree also brings life because they are connected. So when we love by allowing God to do the good work through us, we are allowing God to work in our lives and abiding in God's plan of salvation.
 
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We ARE fallen. We are not what Adam and Eve were initially.

That is why we had to have a Savior. If not, we couldn't have saved ourselves. The main theme of the Bible is that God so loved the world that he did for us what we were not able to do on our own.

Many today say that we will always commit some kind of grievous sin (mortal sin) this side of heaven. Many today say that they can sin in the flesh or body, and yet they are saved and forgiven in the spirit by believing in Jesus Christ. Yet, 2 Corinthians 7:1 refutes this idea. It says, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
 
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Who ultimately does the "good work" in a believer's life?

Is it God?
Or is it the believer?

Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

So no. I do not believe in Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism. I believe if someone truly has accepted the LORD and Christ lives within them, then good fruit (And not bad fruit) will be evident in their life to prove that the One who is salvation itself abides within them (1 John 5:12).

“Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:” (Philippians 1:6).
 
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God is salvation. The Lord is salvation. So if we abide in the Lord, good works will be there. Good works is connected to God. We cannot dissect them out and say they are not connected to God. So if we do good by God working in us, they are a part of salvation because it is fulfilling God's will for our life and it is about abiding in Him (who is the source of our salvation).
 
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A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. (Luke 6:45).
 
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Albion

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Many today say that we will always commit some kind of grievous sin (mortal sin) this side of heaven. Many today say that they can sin in the flesh or body, and yet they are saved and forgiven in the spirit by believing in Jesus Christ. Yet, 2 Corinthians 7:1 refutes this idea.
Well then, those benighted people are shown to be wrong about this.

The question then becomes...how are we to straighten such people out? It's not by offering even more complicated and confusing descriptions of the Faith vs Works issue.
 
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“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

Surely Paul is agreeing with Jesus in John 15:4-6.
 
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coffee4u

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You also say we are fallen beings. That is not how the Christian life should be. Please. Just please read and believe 2 Corinthians 7:1.

We are fallen beings, it is why we die.
When we die we put off the corruptable flesh.

1 Corinthians 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

But until that time our flesh is corrupted even after coming to saving faith. It is why the flesh is weak but the spirit is willing. It is why Paul was at war with himself.
Romans 7:24
What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
 
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Albion

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Surely Paul is agreeing with Jesus in John 15:6.

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." Jn 15:6

Surely, a man who doesn't have a real Faith will not abide in Him and will pay the price. John affirms Sola Fide there.
 
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Paul did not teach Belief Alone-ism for salvation:

Many believe that Paul taught to believe in Jesus alone to be saved;
But this is not true. For Paul also says...

  1. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4). (Note: James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble).
  2. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel,...” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).
  3. “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).
  4. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).
  5. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
  6. “But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
  7. “They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16). (Note: To know God is a part of salvation (See: John 17:3, and 1 John 2:3-4, 1 John 5:12).
  8. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
  9. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).
  10. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).
  11. “...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).
  12. “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).
  13. “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).
  14. “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4).
  15. “But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.” (Ephesians 5:3-7).
  16. “Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). This plays in nicely with this verse: And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” (2 Timothy 2:19).
  17. “Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” (Titus 2:14).
  18. “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (Titus 2:11-12).

Side Note:

Yes, Paul taught that we must believe in Jesus and His grace, and in the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, but this was not Belief Alone-ism with the exclusion of living holy afterwards.

The Apostle Paul definitely did teach that it was by faith alone and not by works that we are justified, and access God's saving grace and power.

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB)
5 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Romans 1:16-17 (WEB)
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, because it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first, and also for the Greek. 17 For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.” [Habakkuk 2:4]

HOWEVER,

The Passages you listed represent, explain and define the acceptable Faith of the Gospel, which is founded in the two basic teachings that Lord Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, and Jude continually stress:
  • To deny the selfish ambitions of the carnal mind, which is, being separate and holy before God.
  • To live the rest of your life following Jesus into a life of holiness and love - obeying all things whatsoever He has commanded of you.
Therefore, a Gospel Faith is a change in Masters – denounce the old Master, and now, by faith, live for your Rightful Master and Lord, Christ Jesus.

So our faith is now demonstrated by living out the these two foundational teachings of the Gospel Faith (holiness and love) in all we do within the present wicked system of things just as Lord Jesus did.

Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

John 14:21 (NIV)
21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

1 John 2:1-6 (NIV)
2 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

Blessings
 
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We are fallen beings, it is why we die.
When we die we put off the corruptable flesh.

1 Corinthians 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

But until that time our flesh is corrupted even after coming to saving faith. It is why the flesh is weak but the spirit is willing. It is why Paul was at war with himself.
Romans 7:24
What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?

In regards 1 Corinthians 15:53: Our bodies being once tainted by sin by our old life and by living in a fallen world from Adam does not mean that we must commit grievous sin 24/7 or that we are slaves to mortal sin in some way.

Romans 7:14-24 is in reference to Paul recounting his experience as Saul being under the Old Testament Law of Moses and trying to be saved by the Law according to the Pharisee religion. Paul is not referring to his experience as a Christian. That is a gross misinterpretation that is common among those who believe they can abide in mortal sin and still be saved.
 
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We are fallen beings, it is why we die.
When we die we put off the corruptable flesh.

1 Corinthians 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

But until that time our flesh is corrupted even after coming to saving faith. It is why the flesh is weak but the spirit is willing. It is why Paul was at war with himself.
Romans 7:24
What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?

You also need to deal with 2 Corinthians 7:1. Please deal with that verse. For this argument should not be all one sided. You have to contribute, too. Please explain the verses I put forth to you.
 
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