Christ's Death

Gary O' · Feb 21, 2021

BobRyan said:
In Matt 24:36 He shows an example of this voluntary limit "36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Ah, the jewel

Whoa

I've read that text many times
But, only until now, do I see (in total) what Jesus was saying

Thank you so much

Mark Quayle · Feb 21, 2021

Gary O' said:
Thank you, Bob

I'm still seeking more biblical texts to substantiate

But, Isaiah sure says it

"For the joy that was before him, endured the cross..." Hebrews 12:2

Yeshua HaDerekh · Feb 21, 2021

BobRyan said:
If Christ was merely feigning disrepair and grief - when He claims He was forsaken then it would be little more than "acting" for the sake of emotional effect rather than the reality of what Isaiah 53 says it was.

read the chapter that the OP is talking about - Christ was not always in the condition of sin bearer while on Earth. For most of His life He was the "spotless lamb of God" - Only at the cross did He stand in the position of the wicked before God to take the punishment due the wicked.

The Desire of Ages

The Father never ceased to Love Christ as that chapter points out - but the decision that the Godhead had made -- they all agreed - that Christ should stand in the condemned position of the lost sinner and take the punishment God's Law says is due the sinner which includes the experience of separation from God, despair grief torment of soul etc. All the debt owed.

Yes, Yeshua felt all of that. But none of that implies that The Father abandoned The Son, nor did He abandon David...

Yeshua HaDerekh · Feb 21, 2021

BobRyan said:
In Matt 24:36 He shows an example of this voluntary limit "36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Do you know what He means by saying that?? It is not what you think it is...

Mark Quayle · Feb 21, 2021

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Yes, Yeshua felt all of that. But none of that implies that The Father abandoned The Son, nor did He abandon David...

In a sense, he did. But Scripture is right in saying that he did not totally abandon him. It was, after all, God who raised him from the dead.

I keep hearing that Christ had his doubts, at that last scream, "Why have you forsaken me?:. To my mind, that was agony, not doubt. He well knew why.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Feb 21, 2021

BobRyan said:
The "debt" consists of exact fines/decrees against us for each sin -- specifying the exact amount of torment and suffering owed for each one given our circumstances.

When the wicked are confronted with the lake of fire "second death" in Rev 20 -- it will not be a bunch of angry Roman soldiers standing there to punish the wicked.. it will not be Jews ready to condemn them... rather it will be the suffering and torment owed in the literal lake of fire and brimstone.

It is that supernatural torment owed - that was paid in full by Christ.

Do you know WHY it was called Gehinnom?

Yeshua HaDerekh · Feb 21, 2021

Gary O' said:
I've read that text many times
But, only until now, do I see (in total) what Jesus was saying

Do you?

Mark Quayle · Feb 21, 2021

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Do you?

Ha! Do any of us quite understand the whole thing?

Yeshua HaDerekh · Feb 21, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Ha! Do any of us quite understand the whole thing?

Depends on your definition of "whole thing"...

Gary O' · Feb 21, 2021

BobRyan said:
Ok first - your question about Christ as our atoning Sacrifice paying our debt of sin (I love this topic) -- thanks for asking !

Good question.

Jesus paid "our debt" of the 2nd death (we all die our own first death) ..

Isaiah 53

5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
...
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
...
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.

1 John 2:2 NIV
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

In God's system each sin has its own specific amount of torment and suffering due -- so some folks get many lashes of torment at the 2nd death and others "less" - depending on what they knew and did.

Luke 12
45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

Our "Certificate of debt" - the payment owed (like the speeding ticket with the fine specified) - is what is nailed to the cross.

Col 2: 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

The "debt" consists of exact fines/decrees against us for each sin -- specifying the exact amount of torment and suffering owed for each one given our circumstances.

2 Cor 5
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Rom 8:
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
======================

When the wicked are confronted with the lake of fire "second death" in Rev 20 -- it will not be a bunch of angry Roman soldiers standing there to punish the wicked.. it will not be Jews ready to condemn them... rather it will be the suffering and torment owed in the literal lake of fire and brimstone.

It is that supernatural torment owed - that was paid in full by Christ.

Well now

I totally missed this post

I've got some studying to do

Thank you, Bob

Wonderful stuff

Gary O' · Feb 21, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Do any of us quite understand the whole thing?

Good statement

BobRyan · Feb 21, 2021

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Do you know WHY it was called Gehinnom?

It was the refuse dump where the fires continually had new fuel to burn. The point they were making is that the fire will fully consume what it is burning - it is not about a fire that consumes nothing at all no matter how long it burns. (We might agree on this point as it is).

So for example Rev 20 Fire came down and consumed them -- "devoured them"

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

But only at the point that the Luke 12 torment and suffering debt is paid -- are they fully consumed.

Matt 10:28
28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his master *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his master, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed him.

So then what is Christ's application of this parable?

35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

BobRyan · Feb 21, 2021

Gary O' said:
Well now

I totally missed this post

I've got some studying to do

Thank you, Bob

Wonderful stuff

And thank you for asking that great question. It is key to the entire point of Christ's substitutionary atoning sacrifice - His death for us - that we might have eternal life.

BobRyan · Feb 21, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
"Why have you forsaken me?:. To my mind, that was agony, not doubt.

Indeed it describes despair and agony and a deep personal wound as if an obedient young child had said to its mother while being tormented in the presence of his mother who had full power to stop the torment - "Mother - my mother why have you forsaken me"? It is not the shout of victory but rather the cry of despair. But in Christ's case even more than that since between God the Father and God The Son there was some sort of divine connection that was severed during the cross event. Cause extreme stress and pain to the Son for that period of time. All this God the Son saw ahead of time - and yet He still chose to come and save us anyway.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for - the evidence of things not seen... Christ's faith in the Father alone - pierced the prospect of the Tomb - without using any supernatural powers of His own to remove that faith.

Rom 8:24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

We see in "It is finished" a strong hint of victory.
And in the statement "into THY hands I commit my spirit" - total faith and trust in the Father as his last breath.

Mark Quayle · Feb 21, 2021

BobRyan said:
Indeed it describes despair and agony and a deep personal wound as if an obedient young child had said to its mother while being tormented in the presence of his mother who had full power to stop the torment - "Mother - my mother why have you forsaken me"? It is not the shout of victory by the cry of despair.

We see in "It is finished" a strong hint of victory.
And in the statement "into THY hands I commit my spirit" - total faith and trust in his last breath.

AMEN BROTHER!

BobRyan · Feb 21, 2021

BobRyan said:
Indeed it describes despair and agony and a deep personal wound as if an obedient young child had said to its mother while being tormented in the presence of his mother who had full power to stop the torment - "Mother - my mother why have you forsaken me"? It is not the shout of victory but rather the cry of despair.

But in Christ's case even more than that since between God the Father and God The Son there was some sort of divine connection that was severed during the cross event. Cause extreme stress and pain to the Son for that period of time. All this God the Son saw ahead of time - and yet He still chose to come and save us anyway.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for - the evidence of things not seen... Christ's faith in the Father alone - pierced the prospect of the Tomb - without using any supernatural powers of His own to remove that faith.

Rom 8:24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

We see in "It is finished" a strong hint of victory.
And in the statement "into THY hands I commit my spirit" - total faith and trust in the Father as his last breath.

I added this to that post -

But in Christ's case even more than that since between God the Father and God The Son there was some sort of divine connection that was severed during the cross event. Caused extreme stress and pain to the Son for that period of time. All this God the Son saw ahead of time - and yet He still chose to come and save us anyway.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for - the evidence of things not seen... Christ's faith in the Father alone - pierced the prospect of the Tomb - without using any supernatural powers of His own to remove that faith.

Rom 8:24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

BobRyan · Feb 21, 2021

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Yes, Yeshua felt all of that. But none of that implies that The Father abandoned The Son, nor did He abandon David...

True - never abandon - but as that chapter describes the Father and the Angels were right there around Christ at the cross cloaked in the supernatural darkness that descended ( with lightnings seemingly hurled at Christ from the POV of human onlookers) -- yet Christ was not allowed to "Feel" that comfort - rather he felt the "despised and stricken" experience of Isaiah 53 fully at that time.

Zechariah 13:7
“Awake, sword, against My Shepherd, And against the Man, My Associate,” Declares the Lord of armies. “Strike the Shepherd and the sheep will be scattered; And I will turn My hand against the little ones.

Isaiah 53
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

Gary O' · Feb 21, 2021

BobRyan said:
It is key to the entire point of Christ's substitutionary atoning sacrifice - His death for us - that we might have eternal life.

Amen

It gives this ol' soul reason to sing His praises....and I can't sing a lick
But, it just comes forth
Can nay be helpt

I do crank up the stereo in the shop (mainly to drown me out)

Maybe one fine day I'll sing like him

BobRyan · Feb 21, 2021

ok - so while we are on the topic of the presence of God and His power to save to the uttermost because of the life, death, resurrection of Christ and His work in heaven as our High Priest today (Rom 8:1-5)...

Here is an amazing testimony by a Chinese Communist/Atheist woman who met Christ and was saved - a truly amazing testimony.

A must see!

“Miracle Testimony: Chinese Woman Saved By Jesus Christ Before She Knew Him.”

Gary O' · Feb 22, 2021

BobRyan said:
A must see!

Quite the testimony

Thank you for sharing this, Bob

Christ's Death

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Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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