Paul did not teach Perpetual Belief Alone-ism for salvation.

zoidar said:

I'm not to argue with you on the importance of obedience.

I took away most of my reply, since we have talked about it before ...

I will say though, I had such fire in my heart ten years ago, where did that go? How do I get that back?

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We find security in 1 John 2:3, brother.

MMXX said:

Perhaps because so many people give testimony about what a mess their life was and how miserable they were living in sin.

Perhaps because even if someone is permanently forgiven God doesn't want them to sin any longer.

Perhaps because sin results in many negative consequences.

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What kind of consequences did Jesus tell us about doing certain kinds of sins?

Lets read the Bible and see:

“...whosoever shall say to his brother,
... Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.” (Matthew 5:22).

“But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

By the way, this passage defeats Belief Alone-ism. Yet, many will falsely say that only Jesus taught faith + works only and not Paul. But Paul also taught the same thing. For Paul taught that a person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16), and that if one sows to the flesh (sin) they will reap corruption, and if they sow to the Spirit they will reap everlasting life in Galatians 6:8-9 (Thus they must not grow tired in well doing). Paul says be not deceived the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God and then he lists various sins to give you an idea of what you cannot do without there be eternal consequences. Paul said if any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22). The way Jesus wants us to love Him is by keeping His commandments (John 14:15). So if we are not keeping His commandments, we are not really loving Jesus. Sure, a person can get all emotional and say they love Jesus, but if they are not keeping His commandments, they not really loving Jesus (See also John 15:10).

MMXX said:

What I said was this:

"I think. I had become backslidden, detached, complacent, stagnant, lukewarm - I'm not sure how to put it. I didn't become apostate. I didn't go off to a distant country to engage in wild living. It was more like stayed in my room in my Father's house with the door shut.

If someone had had me under surveillance, on the surface they probably wouldn't see any difference. If someone viewed my internet history, they'd see that I went from random browsing and watching random youtube videos, to a bunch of "religious stuff". Like it says of the prodigal son, I came to my senses. And did a lot of apologizing and repenting.

But was I unsaved during that period? I'm not sure. I suppose it's a question of how much I play a part in my salvation and how much God plays a part. Did I come to my senses on my own, or was it that the Holy Spirit decided this had gone on long enough and yanked my blinders off? Was I spiritually dead, or just being spiritually lazy?"

1. I wasn't sure what to call where I was at spiritually. But that I knew I wasn't where I should be.

2. I questioned whether I was saved or unsaved during that period.

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#1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes one act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes one act of adultery to be an adulterer.

#2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at a woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

#3. John says, "No murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

#4. Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."

#5. Jesus Himself says that just looking at a woman in lust (Which is adultery) is potential for a person to be cast bodily in hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30).

#6. David needed to confess of his sin in order to be forgiven (See Psalms 51).

#7. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

#8. Revelation 21:8 says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Murderers and whoremongers will be cast into the lake of fire. All liars will be cast into the lake of fire. ALL liars, and not just some. NO murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).

Mark Quayle said:

I'm sorry. You seem to be using it to counter what I said. It is up to you to show how it does so. To me, it is in perfect agreement to what I said.

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I believe you are not explaining it because it would contradict your current belief.
But I would love to be proven wrong of course if you did take time to explain it and it made sense in light of the context.

klutedavid said:

Salvation belongs to Jesus Christ alone. You must first be saved by Jesus Christ, before you can embark on a life of good works. No one can earn their salvation and no one can contribute to their own salvation.

In the end when all is said and done, salvation is ultimately a gift from God.

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Salvation is through Christ alone. Christ also redeems us from iniquity that enslaves our lives (See: Titus 2:14). Salvation is not about being forgiven, but it is about being set free from being a slave to grievous sin that the Bible attaches with warnings of hellfire and condemnation.

klutedavid said:

I disagree. To be circumcised is the initiation into the law, the outward marker. That's because circumcision is in the law and you cannot say that you obey the law. Without being circumcised.

John 7:23
If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken.

The Jerusalem council was all about whether Gentiles had to obey the law.

You are dead wrong in that idea of yours, 'works salvation'.

Why are you wrong, here is what the text states.

Acts 15:1
Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren.

The 'the brethren' are Gentile Christians.

So your concept of 'works salvation' is incorrect. You should have said; faith plus the works of the law.

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I am not in disagreement that circumcision is not a part of keeping the Law of Moses. That was the whole point of why I brought it up. But circumcision if one believed it gets you initially saved or right with God instead of faith in Jesus Christ is a major problem because it would be making the Law the basis of one's salvation and not Jesus Christ and His grace. It says right in Acts of the Apostles 15:1 that these Jews who were trying to deceive Christians were trying to get them circumcised in order to say they were saved. Lets read it.

“....Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

johnbunyan said:

Many, many years ago, God rescued me from the most dire of situations. He then wanted something specific from me. To my abject and utter shame, I didn’t do it. I did what I wanted, not what God wanted. Over the next few years I committed in my view, terrible sin. At a very low point, I asked if I could return to a christian community I had once lived in. I did this without a huge confession of repentance, for I had never ceased praying, I just felt it was the right thing to do. The leader of the community welcomed me with open arms, and told me. ‘’God has given me a great love for you’’

Sadly, I again left there, contrary to what God wanted, and once again got my life into a complete mess. Then I met a woman, she constantly got drunk, took drugs, had been a prostitute for a time, and her children were on an at risk register. Children from two different fathers. She had not worked in over two decades. I moved in with her, and my conscience asked her to marry me, rather than live in blatant sin. She agreed. Over time, her drinking completely stopped, as did her smoking. She took no more drugs, and the children were removed from the at risk register. She got a job, and we eventually owned our own home. She went to church an d got baptised. I never preached to her, I just asked God to change her, for I knew only he could. And her did, to a greater degree than I have ever personally seen anyone change(though obviously you read of these things in books) I know of a certainty she would never have changed like that if she had come across people who would tell her how well she must live to remain in a saved state. She would never have moved forward at all.

Was I in an unsaved state during the times in my life I did not do what God wanted me to do? The evidence says not. Of course, some will always rigidly quote selective scripture to state otherwise, I did that once too.

God bless

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While God can help us to move away from sin if we pray about it, we cannot also make up things that are contary to His Word. There are many groups claiming to live changed lives in other religions. They may even have cut off all forms of what we would call sin. But are they truly right with God? We have to go by what the Word of God says and not based on our experience alone or our feelings. While I am grateful God changed both of your lives for the better, the next step is to study His Word and show yourselves approved unto God.

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2 Timothy 2:15).

At least that would be my encouragement to you, brother.
For God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge (Hosea 4:6).

Chris Endrizzi said:

Excellent work on "NOT by works!" FOR The Body Of CHRIST! See you
{and ALL Precious BLOOD-Bought "members"} In God's Great GloryLand! ♫ ↑

IF I may Further Clarify What God Is Doing “In HIS Amazing GRACE!”
To Clear Up/Prevent any Pending “Confusion Of Contradictions," or ones that
will surely arise in future discussion?:

Grace And Peace, Precious friend(s). Please never mix {wrongly combine!}
(Rom 11:6 KJB!), but Always Rightly Divide, God’s Word Of Truth!:

For Diligent students of The WORD, there are TWO Considerations:

1) God's earthly Context Of "Prophecy/LAW” Program, ISRAEL Prominent!

Peter [+11], TWELVE "preached!" CHRIST’s “teaching on earth”:

gospel of the kingdom!:​

​

Salvation = "he that believeth {faith] AND is baptized {+work} Shall Be SAVED!"
(Mrk 16:16 cp Luk 7:29-30; Acs 2:38; Jam 2:17-18, 26 KJB!)

Notice: Jam 1:1 IS TO: The TWELVE Tribes Of ISRAEL!

The Plain And Clear Passages Of God’s Word Do NOT have to be have
to be Taken Out Of God’s Context, read in somewhere else, causing Confusing
re-interpretations, such as: {God Really Meant To Say} “he that believeth is saved
and Should Then Be {water} baptized” = Plain And Clear foolishness, eh?

Water baptism {works}:
was “FOR the remission of sins” (Mrk 1:4; Luk 2:3; Acs 2:38 KJB!)

{Further Rightly Divided “study” Reveals That “water baptism cleansing,
along With Two Other Requirements was FOR ISRAEL to be inducted into
God’s PRIESThood!” but we will NOT “study” that here...}
+
Further Confirmation FOR ISRAEL, Under "faith PLUS works"
{Many years later...}:

And when they heard it, they glorified The LORD, and said unto him, Thou seest,
brother, how many thousands of JEWS there are which BELIEVE; AND they are
ALL zealous of the law {WORKS} (Acs 21:20 cp "Obeying CHRIST observing AND
doing ALL things HE Commanded!" Mat 28:19-20 AND 23:1-3 et al KJB!)

Rightly Divided (2 Tim 2:15 KJB!) From “Things That DIFFER!”:

2) God's Heavenly Context Of MYSTERY / GRACE Program, Jew And
Gentile Equal!!

Paul “preached CHRIST’s Revelation from Heaven!”

Gospel Of GRACE!:​

​

"Grace Through {all heart} faith" {no "works" Required} In The Death,
burial, And Resurrection Of The LORD JESUS CHRIST, FOR Eternal Life!
----------------------------------
ONE Baptism (NOT water works, But} God’s Operation (Col 2:12 KJB!),

{NOT by works of righteousness which we have done}, But:
BY The Holy Spirit’s “Washing of Regeneration” (Tit 3:5 KJB!),

For Identification With/Induction/Immersion Into The Body Of CHRIST!
(Eph 4:5; 1 Cor 12:13; Gal 3:27; Rom 6:3-6; Col 2:12 KJB!),

And Many More Clear Passages, See Clare73’s quote above, or:
Clare73’s Excellent post #9 this thread...
-----------------------------------
Now, what about “our good works,” Under God's PURE GRACE?
So glad you asked! What Saith The Scripture?

“For we are HIS Workmanship, created in CHRIST JESUS Unto good
works, which God hath before Ordained that we should walk in them.”
(Eph 2:10 KJB!)

Well, Precious friends, are ALL “members Of CHRIST” going to Do What they
SHOULD Do? Seems highly Unlikely, Considering our Judgment, Correct?:

"Good works" Are Required For "Rewards" in Heaven! Amen?
{the "bad works" Lose reward,} But the "GRACE Through faith
believer" IS SAVED! (1 Cor 3:8-15 cp 5:5 KJB!)
----------------------
Ok, Just ONE more Confirmation:

[ God, Who Raises the dead! {v. 9} ], "Who Delivered us from so Great a
death, And Doth Deliver: in Whom we trust that HE Will Yet Deliver us!"
Expounded:

{PAST Tense}: { Justification!!! = God Establishes "Relationship!" }
"Who Delivered us from so great a death, {From The PENALTY of sin!}

{ PRESENT Tense }: { Sanctification!! = WE "work out" fellowship on earth! }
And Doth Deliver: {From The POWER of sin!!}

{FUTURE Tense}: { Glorification! = Eternal "fellowship," IN HEAVEN!!! }
in Whom we trust that HE Will Yet Deliver us!" {From The PRESENCE of sin!!!}
(2 Cor 1:10 KJB!) BIG Difference, Correct?

Please, ALL Precious friends, Be Very RICHLY Blessed And Encouraged In:
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And, In HIS WORD Of Truth, Rightly Divided!
Amen?
-----------------------
Conclusion:

We are NOT “The Judge” {God!}, who determines “who is SHOWING or
NOT showing their faith” = “Examine your OWN self!” (2 Co 13:5 KJB!),
Correct?

The Redeeming Work Of CHRIST On The Cross IS “ALL-Sufficient,”
Thus, True “GRACE Through faith” believers Are “BLOOD Bought!”
Correct?
+
Today’s PURE GRACE Message = “The preaching Of JESUS CHRIST,
According To THE REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY!”
(Rom 16:25 KJB!), Correct?
-------------------------
Blessed Be The Name of The LORD, And HIS Perfect, Pure, And
"Exalted Above All His Name," WORD For Ever And Ever!! Amen?

“To The Praise Of The Glory Of HIS {Amazing} GRACE!”

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1 Corinthians 3 is not talking about a loss of rewards in Heaven if we don't do good works or if we sin.

In regards to the parable of the building,
and it's materials in 1 Corinthians 3:

Paul says before the parable, "you are God's building."
So we are the materials that make up the building.

The work is not referring to just any kind of general actions of a believer like good fruit (any kind of good fruit) and evil fruit (sin). The work is referring to those believers we bring to the faith and their eternal status with God (i.e. what kind of building materials are they made up of). The Parable is talking about Paul's work (Which is the Corinthians in this instance).

I believe Paul and the other apostles are a part of the foundation with Christ being the chief cornerstone or the ultimate baseline foundation (Ephesians 2:20), and that Paul's work in the gospel are the result of the Corinthians being initially saved by the gospel. However, Paul is now concerned that his labor in the gospel (concerning them) is now in vain because the Corinthians are now working the sins of strife and envying (Note: Paul condemns the sins of strife and envying when writing to the Galatians (Galatians 5:19-21). Paul says that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God). In Galatians 4:11, Paul was concerned for the Galatians in that they were going back to the Old Law so as to be justified or saved. He was concerned that his labor for the gospel was in vain for the Galatians.

So the parable speaks of how his labor for the gospel (concerning the Corinthians) was now possibly in vain for them, too.


This is what I believe the parable is saying. The works of Paul that will be burned are the Corinthians if they do not repent of their sins of strife and envy (1 Corinthians 3:3). The Corinthians at this point in time are not saved and they will be burned up in the fire and destroyed by God if they don't seek forgiveness with the Lord and turn from their sins of strife and envy. Paul, the apostles, or the gospel preacher is the one who will be saved through fire if his work (the Corinthians) is burned up (on the account of their justifying sin). The parable is not talking about how a believer can sin and still be saved as long as they have a belief on Jesus. It's actually teaching the exact opposite of that. One cannot build sin as a work upon the foundation of Jesus Christ. Jesus did not advocate sin, and neither did He teach that a person can continue to sin and still be saved.

Yes, we are initially and foundationally saved by God's grace, but believers cannot justify sin, and they have to be fruitful for their Lord and live holy as a part of the Sanctification Process.
For Hebrews 12:14-15 says,

“14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness,
without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;”