Justification?

Ephfourfive · Feb 21, 2021

johnbunyan said:
if water baptism is neccessary for salvation/ to be righteous before God/be in a saved state, then the unsaved/unrighteous can receive the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost and speak in tongues(Cornelius and his household Acts ch10)) That doesn't sound right to me.

No one has saved until death matt 24:13

Act 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.(Baptism)

Acts 8:36
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Philip preached Jesus and the result is justification by baptism!

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

johnbunyan · Feb 21, 2021

Ephfourfive said:
No one has saved until death matt 24:13

Act 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.(Baptism)

Acts 8:36
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Philip preached Jesus and the result is justification by baptism!

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Could you answer the question please? Do you believe the unrighteous in God's sight can receive the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at pentecost and speak in tongues?

Grace ambassador · Feb 21, 2021

johnbunyan said:
if water baptism is necessary for salvation/ to be righteous before God/be in a saved state, then the unsaved/unrighteous can receive the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost and speak in tongues(Cornelius and his household Acts ch10)) That doesn't sound right to me.

Grace And Peace, Precious friend(s). Hope This Will Be Helpful/Encouraging:

"baptisms" Rightly Divided:

"Prophecy/Law" {earthly} gospel of the kingdom, ISRAEL "Prominent!"
Salvation is by “faith + works” = believe AND be water baptized...

Rightly Divided ( 2 Tim 2:15 KJB! ) From "Things That DIFFER":

"Mystery/GRACE!" {Heavenly!} Gospel Of GRACE, Jew And Gentile "Equal!"
Salvation = “GRACE By faith” + ONE “Baptism BY The Holy Spirit”…

“To The Praise Of The Glory Of HIS {Amazing} GRACE!”

johnbunyan · Feb 21, 2021

Chris Endrizzi said:
G Gospel Of GRACE, Jew And Gentile "Equal!"
Salvation = “GRACE By faith” + ONE “Baptism BY The Holy Spirit”…

“To The Praise Of The Glory Of HIS {Amazing} GRACE!”

Amen

Ephfourfive · Feb 21, 2021

johnbunyan said:
Could you answer the question please? Do you believe the unrighteous in God's sight can receive the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at pentecost and speak in tongues?

Why do you think the disciples were unclean at Pentecost
The apostles were sanctified Jn 20:21-23

Ephfourfive · Feb 21, 2021

johnbunyan said:
Amen

Christian baptism is by water and the spirit Jn 3:5 and eph 4:5

The promise (sacred oath or sacrament) of the father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!

The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation

Better covenant on better promises

2 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

An oath to sacramental life in the new covenant in union with the mediator and communion with God, and the saints!

Promise of the Father acts 2:23-39
Promise is an oath and an oath is a sacrament! This promise of the sacrament of baptism refers to ez. 36:25-27

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

Jn 1:5-5 abide in Him, apart from Him you can do nothing.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

johnbunyan · Feb 21, 2021

Ephfourfive said:
Why do you think the disciples were unclean at Pentecost
The apostles were sanctified Jn 20:21-23

Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost and spoke in tongues prior to being baptised in water. Was Cornelieus and his household in a righteous, or unrighteous state before God when they received the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost?
It is a very simple question indeed

Ephfourfive · Feb 21, 2021

johnbunyan said:
Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost and spoke in tongues prior to being baptised in water. Was Cornelieus and his household in a righteous, or unrighteous state before God when they received the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost?
It is a very simple question indeed

What d call tongues?

johnbunyan · Feb 21, 2021

Ephfourfive said:
What d call tongues?

Your refusal to answer the simple question, but just evade speaks volumes.
I will tell you why you will not answer. You cannot say Cornelius and his household were in an unrighteous state before God when they received the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost can you. Neither can you admit they were in a righteous state, for that blows your understanding away. So you have to deflect. Better to ignore questions you refuse to answer in my view

Ephfourfive · Feb 21, 2021

johnbunyan said:
Your refusal to answer the simple question, but just evade speaks volumes.
I will tell you why you will not answer. You cannot say Cornelius and his household were in an unrighteous state before God when they received the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost can you. Neither can you admit they were in a righteous state, for that blows your understanding away. So you have to deflect. Better to ignore questions you refuse to answer in my view

We require grace found in baptism to be righteous

johnbunyan · Feb 21, 2021

Ephfourfive said:
We require grace found in baptism to be righteous

So in your view, when Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost they were in an unrighteous state before God. I know you are not publically prepared to state that, however, if you believe righteousness hinges on being baptised in water you must believe that.
Strange belief, but this is the internet.

Ephfourfive · Feb 21, 2021

johnbunyan said:
So in your view, when Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost they were in an unrighteous state before God. I know you are not publically prepared to state that, however, if you believe righteousness hinges on being baptised in water you must believe that.
Strange belief, but this is the internet.

You don’t believe baptismal regeneration?

Context of Jn 3:5 “born again”

John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)(His disciples believed because the ever Virgin mother of God interceded Jn 2:11)

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism)

John 4:4 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

Born again means Baptismal regeneration!

johnbunyan · Feb 21, 2021

Ephfourfive said:
You don’t believe baptismal regeneration?

Context of Jn 3:5 “born again”

John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)(His disciples believed because the ever Virgin mother of God interceded Jn 2:11)

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism)

John 4:4 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

Born again means Baptismal regeneration!

This will be my last post to you. Sadly, you are not qualified concerning this subject, for you cannot answer a simple question concerning it that I have repeatedly asked of you. There is no point in quoting scripture, if you cannot say whether Cornelius and his household were in a righteous or unrighteous state before God when they received the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost.
Anyone can quote scripture, but if you have to ignore a simple question concerning the subject matter of your thread, I am afraid it does not speak well.

hedrick · Feb 21, 2021

Butterball1 said:
You are still reading your ideas into the verse as you prove above.

Romans 5:19
(a) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
(b) so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

This is an if-then type statement. If (a) is true, so (b) is equally true. Whatever one assumes into (a) they must also assume it into (b). So if one assumes the idea many are UNCONDITIONALLY made righteous then that same idea must equally be applied to (b) that many are UNCONDITIONALLY made righteous.

Romans 5:18
(a) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
(b) even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

If (a) is true so also is (b) equally true. If 'all men' are UNconditionally condemned then even so is that same 'all men' UNconditionally justified.

There is nothing in the NT that says all men are UNconditionally condemned as there is no verse that says all men will be UNconditionally justified.

Romans 5:17
(a) For if by one man's offence death reigned by one;
(b) much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

Again, if (a) is true, then (b) is equally true. One commentator accurately sums up the failure of the Calvinist's assumption: (my emp) " The Calvinists assume that spiritual death reigned through Adam, because we all inherited the guilt of his sins. But if this is the case, then how are we to interpret the rest of the verse? If all have inherited Adam's guilt, why don't we all inherit the gift of righteousness through Christ? If all are sinners in Adam, then all must be saved in Christ. Death reigned through Adam, because all men made the choice to follow in his steps (5:12 "because all sinned"). Likewise those who receive the abundance of grace/gift of righteousness and spiritual life through Christ, are those that CHOSE IT (Acts 2:41)." Dunagan.

There is an old saying that you can't change horses in the middle of a stream. Likewise one cannot change interpretation in the middle of a verse for the obvious reason of protecting a theological bias.

It's hard to object to your exegesis. But the most obvious implication is not just to rejecting Calvinism, but to universalism.

However there's an alternative: Since the main subject of Romans is the relationship of Israel and Gentiles, it's also possible that both halves refer to categories not individuals. That is, Adam brought sin to both Jews and Gentiles, and Christ brought salvation to both Jews and Gentiles.

Calvin's commentary on Romans ignores this issue entirely in 5:19, but in 11:32, he says "But extremely gross is their folly who hence conclude that all shall be saved; for Paul simply means that both Jews and Gentiles do not otherwise obtain salvation than through the mercy of God, and thus he leaves to none any reason for complaint. It is indeed true that this mercy is without any difference offered to all, but every one must seek it by faith."

Remember that Calvin understands that faith is needed for salvation. We only come to faith through God's grace, but that doesn't short-circuit the requirement for faith. That means that Calvin's exegesis of most passages is going to look the same as Arminians'.

However I think it's possible that Paul actually does mean universalism.

Grace ambassador · Feb 21, 2021

-tdidymas said: ↑
Rom. 5:1 "Having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Notice it doesn't say or imply anything like "faith plus..." Therefore by default, it's faith alone.
+

Ephfourfive said:
Justification by faith and baptism? Mk 16:16

Grace And Peace, Precious friend(s). Actually, you are BOTH Correct,
IF understood, Rightly Divided! Be Very RICHLY Blessed!!:

Sorry, duplicate post "baptisms, Rightly Divided," from earlier :sad

Clare73 · Feb 21, 2021

Butterball1 said:
You are still reading your ideas into the verse as you prove above.

Romans 5:19
(a) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
(b) so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

This is an if-then type statement. If (a) is true, so (b) is equally true. Whatever one assumes into (a) they must also assume it into (b). So if one assumes the idea many are UNCONDITIONALLY made righteous then that same idea must equally be applied to (b) that many are UNCONDITIONALLY made righteous.

Romans 5:18
(a) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
(b) even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

If (a) is true so also is (b) equally true. If 'all men' are UNconditionally condemned then even so is that same 'all men' UNconditionally justified.

There is nothing in the NT that says all men are UNconditionally condemned as there is no verse that says all men will be UNconditionally justified.

Romans 5:17
(a) For if by one man's offence death reigned by one;
(b) much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

Again, if (a) is true, then (b) is equally true. One commentator accurately sums up the failure of the Calvinist's assumption: (my emp) " The Calvinists assume that spiritual death reigned through Adam, because we all inherited the guilt of his sins. But if this is the case, then how are we to interpret the rest of the verse?

All those of Adam are condemned, all those of Christ are justified.

We are of Adam by natural birth, and of Christ's Holy Spirit (2Co 3:17, 18) by spiritual rebirth (Jn 3:3, 5).

If all have inherited Adam's guilt, why don't we all inherit the gift of righteousness through Christ? If all are sinners in Adam, then all must be saved in Christ. Death reigned through Adam, because all men made the choice to follow in his steps (5:12 "because all sinned"). Likewise those who receive the abundance of grace/gift of righteousness and spiritual life through Christ, are those that CHOSE IT (Acts 2:41)." Dunagan.

There is an old saying that you can't change horses in the middle of a stream. Likewise one cannot change interpretation in the middle of a verse for the obvious reason of protecting a theological bias.

Clare73 · Feb 21, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
Belief which is a action springs from faith.

Belief and faith are the same thing.

Belief is not an action, it is a disposition--a state of being, not a state of doing.

Liking ice cream is not an action, it is a disposition. Eating ice cream is an action.

springs from faith. If you condition justification before God on your action, you promote a works based salvation/justification, a reason to boast !

Brightfame52 · Feb 22, 2021

Clare73 said:
Belief and faith are the same thing.

Belief is not an action, it is a disposition--a state of being, not a state of doing.

Liking ice cream is not an action, it is a disposition. Eating ice cream is an action.

I know what belief is in relation to faith. Yes belief is a action, its a action verb . Any action is technically a work.

Psalm 27 · Feb 22, 2021

Ephfourfive said:
Any scripture for justification by “faith alone”?

Google search

Clare73 · Feb 22, 2021

Clare73 said:
All those of Adam are condemned, all those of Christ are justified.

We are of Adam by natural birth, and of Christ's Holy Spirit (2Co 3:17, 18) by spiritual rebirth (Jn3:3, 5).

Brightfame52 said:
I know what belief is in relation to faith.
Yes belief is a action, its a action verb . Any action is technically a work.

You need a better dictionary.

"Belief" is a noun, just as "faith" is a noun.

Belief is not a work (verb); like faith (noun), it is a state of being.

And to be Biblically correct, your interpretation of Ro 5:17-19 must agree with:

Jn 3:18 - "Whoever does not believe in the Son is condemned already."

Jn 3:36 - "Whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

The NT does not allow salvific universalism.

Justification?

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Chris Endrizzi

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Senior Veteran

Chris Endrizzi

Blood-bought

Blood-bought

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Blood-bought

Similar threads