1 John 1:9

Danthemailman

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And if we combine John 3:16 with Luke 13:3 we get:

Jn 3:16-----------------believe>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish
Lk 13:3----------------repent>>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish

All the belief alone in the world will never save an impenitent person, and that NT belief therefore MUST include repentance.
You reverse the scriptural order or repent and believe.

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Mark 1:15 - Repent, and believe the gospel.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

*Notice the order in all 3 verses.

Saving belief in Christ is not without repentance. Two sides to the same coin. All the mere “mental assent” belief in the world (which falls short of saving belief that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation) will not save you.
 
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Danthemailman

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Are you sure that "the saving of his house" didn't mean his house was saved from drowning?
Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith and not the origin of it. Building the ark saved Noah and his family (physically) from drowning.
 
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HIM

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And if we combine John 3:16 with Luke 13:3 we get:

Jn 3:16-----------------believe>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish
Lk 13:3----------------repent>>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish

All the belief alone in the world will never save an impenitent person, and that NT belief therefore MUST include repentance.
Amen. Believe is to trust and commit.

Here is Strong's citation for the Greek word translated believe in John 3:16.
pisteuō
pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ):—believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Save his house from the flood. Saving his house from dying in the flood was a free gift of grace, God certainly did not owe it to him. Yet Noah still had to do a work to receive the free gift. I see you are already hard a work looking for a way around the simplicity of this.

I was thinking maybe you thought "the saving of his house" meant salvation as in justification.

GOd did not owe Naaman anything, yet God graciously healed his disease BUT God attached a condition that Naaman had to first dip 7 times in the Jordan River. After sthaling and complaing, he finally went and dipped and received the free gift. Again, an obedient work to receive a free gift and the gift was not earned.

Acts 2:38 repent and be baptized is the precondition upon receiving the free gift of 'remission of sins; yet the obedience work in repenting and submitting to baptism earns NOTHING.

Note again, Noah did not build the ark BECAUSE he was already saved from a flood that had not yet occurred, Naaman did not go and dip BECAUSE he was already healed, men do not repent and be baptised BECAUSE they already have remission of sins. See the total lack of logic faith onlyists vreate when they try and change the meaning of eis to 'because'?

More examples?

Sounds like something you need to take up with them.
 
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setst777

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John was not writing to those who are Christians. Why would he write "Now this is the gospel message we have heard from him and announce to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all." If they were Christians, they would not need to have the gospel announced to them. (Do you need the gospel announced to you?)

setst RE:
If you read the context of this whole letter, we see that John is addressing those who claim faith in Jesus, but John is not taking their faith for granted, since we see many warnings given by John.

All these warnings show us that John is not writing to unbelievers who could care less.

We also realize by all these warnings that John realized that only continued faithfulness demonstrated by keeping the commandments of Jesus, would insure their remaining in Christ and ultimate salvation.

For instance let us review several beginning verses of the context of the 2nd chapter in of the very same letter - remembering that chapter markings and verses were added over 1500 years after the NT letters were written:

1 John 2
1 My little children (
John calls the recipients of his letter "My little children" a intimate familiar term), I write these things to you so that you may not sin. If anyone sins, we have a Counselor (John includes them a having access to the Counselor if they should sin) with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous. 2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. 3 This is how we know that we know him: if we keep his commandments (This is a warning that we must continually keep His commandments to know Him). 4 One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him. 5 But God’s love has most certainly been perfected in whoever keeps his word. This is how we know that we are in him: 6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked (More warnings that we must keep His commands and walk as Jesus Walked to remain in Christ).

Justification was accomplished by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. You can't be justified over and over, any more than you can be found innocent of any crime more than once if you have been found to be innocent of the charge. Romans 5:1-2, "Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have also obtained access into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of God’s glory."

setst RE: You quoted Romans 5:1-2 to prove your point that Justification, and access to God's grace, is by faith. True enough. Remember that faith, is not a one time action, but a continuous believing demonstrated by following Lord Jesus.

By following Jesus is how we are turned from death to life, from darkness to light.

John 5:24 (WEB)
24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes (continuous action) him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 8:12 (WEB) 12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1] He who follows me (believing in Jesus is demonstrated by following Jesus) will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.

John 12:46 (WEB) 46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes (continuous action) in me may not remain in the darkness.

John 20:31 (WEB) 31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

Notice that the terms:
  • death to life
  • darkness to light,
  • have life
are terms used for the new birth in Christ - only by faith.

If you remain faithful to the end, you will be eternally saved.

Revelation 3:21 (WEB) He who overcomes, I will give to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father on his throne.

2 Thessalonians 1:4-11 (WEB)
4 So that we ourselves boast about you in the assemblies of God for your perseverance and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions which you endure. 5 This is an obvious sign of the righteous judgment of God, to the end that you may be counted worthy of God’s Kingdom, for which you also suffer.

Revelation 3:1-6 (WEB)
1 “I know your works – that you have a reputation of being alive but you are dead. 2 Wake up and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent.
If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you.
4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy.
5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Luke 21:36 (WEB) 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Romans 11:19-22 (WEB) 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.” 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 (WEB) Now I declare to you, brothers, the Good News which I preached to you, which also you received, in which you also stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold firmly the word which I preached to you — unless you believed in vain.

The NT is filled with such warnings.

So consider all the warnings that John gives in his three letters, that our responsibility is to remain in that one faith from the lusts of the world, from idols, from false doctrine, from unloving acts, et cetera, to remain in Christ.

So faith is our responsibility before God as John repeatedly drives home throughout his letters. If we remain faithful, we remain in God's grace, and we are justified.

All the Apostles taught the very same thing, as we see many warnings throughout all the Apostolic Letters, warning us to continue in the faith to remain in Christ.

Blessings.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The usual prayer of general confession that my church uses in the Liturgy:

Pastor: Let us confess our sins against God and our neighbor.

All: Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and forgive us; that we may delight in your will, and walk in your ways, to the glory of your Name. Amen.

Pastor: Almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us all our sins through our Lord Jesus Christ, strengthen us in all goodness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit keep us in eternal life. Amen.


-CryptoLutheran
 
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Butterball1

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I was thinking maybe you thought "the saving of his house" meant salvation as in justification.



Sounds like something you need to take up with them.
I'm simply demonstrating free gifts can and do come with preconditions and meeting the precondition does not earn the free gift. This is an every day fact and reality which faith onlyists must reject.
 
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Butterball1

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You reverse the scriptural order or repent and believe.

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Mark 1:15 - Repent, and believe the gospel.

Acts of the Apostles 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

*Notice the order in all 3 verses. Saving belief in Christ is not without repentance. Two sides to the same coin. All the mere “mental assent” belief in the world (which falls short of saving belief that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation) will not save you.

An unbeliever cannot repent. Why would an unbeliever, an athiest, repent when he does not believe in God or in heaven or in hell? He may not even know anything about the BIble therefore know nothing about belief or repentance.

Matthew 21:32 Jesus is speaking to Jews who ALREADY believed in God, they were not atheists. These Jews were not living as they should. Jesus is telling these Jews to bring forth fruit (repentance) worthy of the OT law they were then living under to prepare them for the NT and the type of faith it requires. Same situation in Mark 1:15......the current state of those Jews was they were already believers but needed to repent so they could possess a NT faith. The state of an atheist is different from these Jews in that an atheist does not believe. Hence one would first teach belief to an athiest then repentance.

===============

Acts 20:21 Paul is not giving specific order of events but is reminding the elders at Ephesus of the two main topics he preached there. Paul is not saying repentance is dependant upon faith. At this unique time in history during the transition from the OT to NT there were many Jews and Gentiles who ALREADY believed in God but they needed to bring forth fruit by repenting in order to prep them for the NT gospel and the belief it required in Christ.


Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." This is not teaching confession before belief. Paul is not giving specific order of salvation but showing the Jew that the physical birth is not what determines salvation but obedience to God's instruction to confess and believe is what saves.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" This verse is not teaching sancitifcation before belief. Again, Paul is not giving a lesson stressing specifics about how one is saved. But is reminding them by what means they were chosen to salvation...God's side of their salvation was sanctification of the Spirit and their side was belief of the truth.

Acts 5:30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree." Peter is not saying Christ was first killed then hanged on a cross but is putting the blood of Christ on their heads.
 
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Danthemailman

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An unbeliever cannot repent. Why would an unbeliever, an athiest, repent when he does not believe in God or in heaven or in hell? He may not even know anything about the BIble therefore know nothing about belief or repentance.
An atheist is not going to repent and believe the gospel until they first come to believe in the existence of God. So for such people, prior to coming to the end result of repentance in receiving salvation (faith in Christ for salvation), they must change their minds about other specific things in order to get there. Repentance, metanoia, focuses on changing one's mind about his previous concept of God (as in Acts 17:30) and disbelief in God or false beliefs (polytheism and idolatry) about God (1 Thessalonians 1:9). On the other hand, this change of mind, focuses on the new direction that change of mind must ultimately take, namely, trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

Now even if someone does believe in the existence of God, yet their belief falls short of believing the gospel, by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) they are still considered an unbeliever in regards to believing in Christ unto salvation. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

Matthew 21:32 Jesus is speaking to Jews who ALREADY believed in God, they were not atheists.
So? Simply believing in the existence of God doesn't mean you believe in Christ unto salvation. In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," yet they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved. (Acts 16:31) Your argument demonstrates that you seem to believe that ALL belief is the same "except for the lack of works" and you cannot seem to grasp a deeper belief/faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, which also explains why you have so much faith in "water and works."

Faith and Repentance

These Jews were not living as they should. Jesus is telling these Jews to bring forth fruit (repentance) worthy of the OT law they were then living under to prepare them for the NT and the type of faith it requires.
If these Jews would have had the right kind of faith that believes in Jesus unto salvation, then they would have demonstrated that they already repented and they would bring forth fruit worthy of repentance. Repentance precedes saving faith in Christ, as I already pointed out.

Same situation in Mark 1:15......the current state of those Jews was they were already believers but needed to repent so they could possess a NT faith. The state of an atheist is different from these Jews in that an atheist does not believe. Hence one would first teach belief to an athiest then repentance.
Again, simply believing in the existence in God does not make you a believer in Christ unto salvation. Repentance precedes believing in Christ/NT faith that is unto salvation. An atheist would first need to come to believe in the existence of God until they could repent and believe the gospel. The Jews who at least believe in the existence of God are one step closer than an atheist to coming to repent and believe the gospel. Notice that Jesus did not say believe the gospel then afterwards repent in Mark 1:15. He clearly stated repent and believe the gospel in that order.

Acts 20:21 Paul is not giving specific order of events but is reminding the elders at Ephesus of the two main topics he preached there. Paul is not saying repentance is dependant upon faith. At this unique time in history during the transition from the OT to NT there were many Jews and Gentiles who ALREADY believed in God but they needed to bring forth fruit by repenting in order to prep them for the NT gospel and the belief it required in Christ.
Paul certainly was giving a specific order of events. He clearly stated "..repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ." You cannot place your faith in Jesus Christ for salvation unless you first repent "change your mind."

Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." This is not teaching confession before belief. Paul is not giving specific order of salvation but showing the Jew that the physical birth is not what determines salvation but obedience to God's instruction to confess and believe is what saves.
Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing that Jesus is Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving lip service to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

I often hear people who attend the CoC misinterpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to "verbally confess with their mouth."

2 Thessalonians 2:13 "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" This verse is not teaching sancitifcation before belief. Again, Paul is not giving a lesson stressing specifics about how one is saved. But is reminding them by what means they were chosen to salvation...God's side of their salvation was sanctification of the Spirit and their side was belief of the truth.
Since saving belief of the truth and being sanctified happens simultaneously, the order here is not important. Just as we read in 1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. This all happens together, so the order mentioned is not important. BTW "washed" here is not water baptism, but spiritual washing of regeneration.

Acts 5:30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree." Peter is not saying Christ was first killed then hanged on a cross but is putting the blood of Christ on their heads.
Of course Peter is not saying it happened in that order, but simply that God raised Jesus whom they slew and hanged on a tree. Your arguments still don't change the fact that repentance precedes believe him/believe the gospel/faith in our Lord Jesus Christ in (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21). You are simply grasping at straws.
 
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Butterball1

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An atheist is not going to repent and believe the gospel until they first come to believe in the existence of God. So for such people, prior to coming to the end result of repentance in receiving salvation (faith in Christ for salvation), they must change their minds about other specific things in order to get there. Repentance, metanoia, focuses on changing one's mind about his previous concept of God (as in Acts 17:30) and disbelief in God or false beliefs (polytheism and idolatry) about God (1 Thessalonians 1:9). On the other hand, this change of mind, focuses on the new direction that change of mind must ultimately take, namely, trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

You admit one must first believe before he can repent.

Danthemailman said:
Now even if someone does believe in the existence of God, yet their belief falls short of believing the gospel, by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) they are still considered an unbeliever in regards to believing in Christ unto salvation. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

They could be considered unbelievers because belief void of obedience in repenting confession and baptism is a dead belief. Even though the Jews "believed in God", yet in places it is said they "believed not" because they would not do what God said. Hence they "believed in God" (believed God exists) but they did not "believe God" as seen in their refusal to believe, refused to confess, refused to obey the gospel Romans 10:16.

You are making a good case that 'belief alone' is dead apart from obedience.

Danthemailman said:
So? Simply believing in the existence of God doesn't mean you believe in Christ unto salvation. In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," yet they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved. (Acts 16:31) Your argument demonstrates that you seem to believe that ALL belief is the same "except for the lack of works" and you cannot seem to grasp a deeper belief/faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, which also explains why you have so much faith in "water and works."

The devil's "belief only" could not save for it is void of obedience. If this "deeper belief/faith that trusts in Jesus" is void of obedience then it is just as dead and worthless as the devils' belief. There is no difference at all between the devil's "belief only" and the "belief only" you claim that saves.....for both are void of obedience to God's will.

Danthemailman said:
Faith and Repentance

If these Jews would have had the right kind of faith that believes in Jesus unto salvation, then they would have demonstrated that they already repented and they would bring forth fruit worthy of repentance. Repentance precedes saving faith in Christ, as I already pointed out.

Again, the reason those Jews did not have the right kind of faith is their faith did not move them to obey Christ. "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32. Jesus did not say to the Jews since you believed on Me you are saved but is saying since you believe do as I say in my word. (Luke 6:46). Their belief only could not make them free.

Danthemailman said:
Again, simply believing in the existence in God does not make you a believer in Christ unto salvation. Repentance precedes believing in Christ/NT faith that is unto salvation. An atheist would first need to come to believe in the existence of God until they could repent and believe the gospel. The Jews who at least believe in the existence of God are one step closer than an atheist to coming to repent and believe the gospel. Notice that Jesus did not say believe the gospel then afterwards repent in Mark 1:15. He clearly stated repent and believe the gospel in that order.

I agree that the Jews "belief in God's existence" could not save for they did not "believe God" in that they would not obey what God said in believing, confessing, obeying the gospel. Paul clearly says in Romans 10:1-3 those Jews were lost for they "have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God".

Danthemailman said:
Paul certainly was giving a specific order of events. He clearly stated "..repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ." You cannot place your faith in Jesus Christ for salvation unless you first repent "change your mind."

Again Paul is speaking to those who already believed in God but not right with God. hence they needed to bring forth fruit by repenting so they could then have a belief in Christ the NT requires. If Paul were dealing with atheist he would not tell them to first repent for they cannot repent as long as they have no belief at all.

In the great commission and taking the gospel to the lost, it depends on the state or stage of the lost person as to where the Christian begins to teach. If dealing with an atheist, then the Christian will need to start in Genesis 1 to first get the atheist to believe in God's existence then go from there to get the athiest's belief to move the atheist to obey God in repenting confessing and submitting to baptism. On the other hand, if the Christian encounters one who already believes in God, then the Christian does not have to begin in Genesis 1 but begin with the gospel, Maatthew 1, and teach Christ to this person and to obey what Christ commanded (John 14:15). In Acts 8 the eunuch already believe in God's existence therefore Phillip need not go back to Genesis 1. Phillip just needed to preach Jesus Christ which is what he did "Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus" which included doing what Jesus said in being baptized.

Danthe mailman said:
Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

Confession and belief are 2 separate things...."Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:" John 12:42. Belief only void of confession is worthless and cannot save.

(You are making a great case against 'belief only")

Danthemailman said:
1 Corinthians 12:13 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing that Jesus is Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving lip service to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

1 Corinthians 2:11 we would not know the things of God's mind unless God reveal those things to us, which He did. God selected certain individuals (Apostles and OT Prophets) inspired them with the Holy Ghost where they, by miraculous inspiration, received "words" from the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:13) and these inspired men wrote those words down where we today can read and understand those words thereby know the things of God Ephesians 3:3-4. The Holy Spirit therefore is the author of the written word and it is by hearing/reading this written word one learns about Christ and know of Christ's Lordship. So one saying Jesus is Lord is nothing miraculous that occurs separate and apart from hearing God's word, Romans 10:17.

Danthemailman said:
I often hear people who attend the CoC misinterpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to "verbally confess with their mouth."

Since saving belief of the truth and being sanctified happens simultaneously, the order here is not important. Just as we read in 1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. This all happens together, so the order mentioned is not important. BTW "washed" here is not water baptism, but spiritual washing of regeneration.

Of course Peter is not saying it happened in that order, but simply that God raised Jesus whom they slew and hanged on a tree. Your arguments still don't change the fact that repentance precedes believe him/believe the gospel/faith in our Lord Jesus Christ in (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21). You are simply grasping at straws.

The NIV is a poor attempt to force Calvinism into the Bible. Note how the NIV INCORRECTLY renders Romans 10:10 from the CORRECT rendering of the KJV:

NIV "For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."
KJV "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

The NIV's attempts to have justification at 'belief only"...."you believe and are justified". Yet this error has one justified a second time when one confesses "profess your faith and are saved". So the NIV has one justified/saved 2 times, at the moment of belief and again at the moment of confession.

Yet the KJV has it correct that belief and confession are UNTO salvation. Belief in and of itself does not save. Confession in and of itself does not save. But belief and confession moves one unto, towards salvation for one is not saved until one has obeyed by being water baptized for remission of sins. But it takes belief and confession to move one toward baptism. Hence those Corinthians were not saved/justified until they first had themselves "washed".

I am arguing against "repentance before belief" when it comes to unbelievers as atheists for they cannot repent while in total unbelief. Yet in cases where men ALREADY believe in God as those Jews, they were to repent, bring forth fruit under the OT law they lived under, whereby they could then come to have a type of faith in Christ the NT requires.
 
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Butterball1

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I was thinking maybe you thought "the saving of his house" meant salvation as in justification.

It did.

If Noah had disobeyed God and not built the ark, his disobedience would had left him UNjust before God and he would fall from grace. Salvation is NOT something that happens UNconditionally in a single instance in time where one becomes UNconditionally saved and can UNconditionally remain saved regardless of what ones does/how one lives. Had Noah not obeyed God he would have died in the flood and been spiritually lost with the rest of that wicked generation of people because salvation is a life long process. Hence his obedience in building the ark had everything to do with his spiritual salvation.

Even though Noah obeyed God (right doing-"righteous" and "walked with God") and therefore found 'grace in the eyes of God' in Genesis 6:8-9, had he disobeyed and not built the ark as commanded in Genesis 6:14 he would have become UNjust and fall from grace. Likewise, even though Abraham obeyed God in Genesis 12 in moving from his land, kindred and house, had he not obeyed in Genesis 22 in offering Isaac he would not have continued to stand just before God because again, justification/salvation is a process.

For one to argue Noah would have UNconditionally been spiritually saved anyway while disobeying God by not building the ark (or Abraham would have continued to be UNconditionally justified anyway while disobeying God in not offering Isaac) would imply a Christian today can likewise turn to live in disobedience to God by living in adultery, thievery, lying, murderer, etc yet saved anyway. This is what is commonly called 'cheap grace' for a reason.

Free gifts as justification/salvation come with preconditions, life long preconditions and working to meet the preconditions earn nothing.
 
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Ceallaigh

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It did.

If Noah had disobeyed God and not built the ark, his disobedience would had left him UNjust before God and he would fall from grace. Salvation is NOT something that happens UNconditionally in a single instance in time where one becomes UNconditionally saved and can UNconditionally remain saved regardless of what ones does/how one lives. Had Noah not obeyed God he would have died in the flood and been spiritually lost with the rest of that wicked generation of people because salvation is a life long process. Hence his obedience in building the ark had everything to do with his spiritual salvation.

Even though Noah obeyed God (right doing-"righteous" and "walked with God") and therefore found 'grace in the eyes of God' in Genesis 6:8-9, had he disobeyed and not built the ark as commanded in Genesis 6:14 he would have become UNjust and fall from grace. Likewise, even though Abraham obeyed God in Genesis 12 in moving from his land, kindred and house, had he not obeyed in Genesis 22 in offering Isaac he would not have continued to stand just before God because again, justification/salvation is a process.

For one to argue Noah would have UNconditionally been spiritually saved anyway while disobeying God by not building the ark (or Abraham would have continued to be UNconditionally justified anyway while disobeying God in not offering Isaac) would imply a Christian today can likewise turn to live in disobedience to God by living in adultery, thievery, lying, murderer, etc yet saved anyway. This is what is commonly called 'cheap grace' for a reason.

Free gifts as justification/salvation come with preconditions, life long preconditions and working to meet the preconditions earn nothing.

What about the times people didn't obey. Like when Jesus told someone he healed to tell no one, and then that person ran around telling everyone? Or when in the Garden of
Gethsemane Jesus kept telling the apostles to stay awake and they kept disobeying?
 
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Butterball1

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What about the times people didn't obey. Like when Jesus told someone he healed to tell no one, and then that person ran around telling everyone? Or when in the Garden of
Gethsemane Jesus told the apostles to stay awake and they kept disobeying?
The Christian's obedience, as Noah and Abrahams' obedience, will not be perfectly sinless all the time. The NT gives the Christian a second avenue of pardon by repenting of sins, [see example of Simon Acts 8 "Repent therefore of this thy wickedness"]. Therefore 'walking in the light' and confessing sins 1 John 1:7-9 are works of obedience that must be life long (present tense) for the Christian to remain saved.

From your post above are you arguing Noah, Abraham could impenitently disobeyed God and be saved anyway? That a Christian can turn and live impenitently in adultery, thievery, etc and be saved anyway?
If Noah, Abraham and the Christian can disobeyed God's commands and God will save them anyway, then it makes no sense to give commands in the first place. The commands would be inane, unless, have no good or reasonable purpose.
 
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setst777

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It did.

If Noah had disobeyed God and not built the ark, his disobedience would had left him UNjust before God and he would fall from grace. Salvation is NOT something that happens UNconditionally in a single instance in time where one becomes UNconditionally saved and can UNconditionally remain saved regardless of what ones does/how one lives. Had Noah not obeyed God he would have died in the flood and been spiritually lost with the rest of that wicked generation of people because salvation is a life long process. Hence his obedience in building the ark had everything to do with his spiritual salvation.

Even though Noah obeyed God (right doing-"righteous" and "walked with God") and therefore found 'grace in the eyes of God' in Genesis 6:8-9, had he disobeyed and not built the ark as commanded in Genesis 6:14 he would have become UNjust and fall from grace. Likewise, even though Abraham obeyed God in Genesis 12 in moving from his land, kindred and house, had he not obeyed in Genesis 22 in offering Isaac he would not have continued to stand just before God because again, justification/salvation is a process.

For one to argue Noah would have UNconditionally been spiritually saved anyway while disobeying God by not building the ark (or Abraham would have continued to be UNconditionally justified anyway while disobeying God in not offering Isaac) would imply a Christian today can likewise turn to live in disobedience to God by living in adultery, thievery, lying, murderer, etc yet saved anyway. This is what is commonly called 'cheap grace' for a reason.

Free gifts as justification/salvation come with preconditions, life long preconditions and working to meet the preconditions earn nothing.

Very true. A true Gospel Faith includes repentance - a commitment to deny the old master and then to live in obedience to our Rightful Master to be in a saving relationship with God.

Acts 20:21 (NIV)
19 I served the Lord with great humility and with tears and in the midst of severe testing by the plots of my Jewish opponents. 20 You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house.21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Romans 6:19-23 (NIV)
19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV)
19 Therefore go and
make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
 
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HIM

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It did.

If Noah had disobeyed God and not built the ark, his disobedience would had left him UNjust before God and he would fall from grace. Salvation is NOT something that happens UNconditionally in a single instance in time where one becomes UNconditionally saved and can UNconditionally remain saved regardless of what ones does/how one lives. Had Noah not obeyed God he would have died in the flood and been spiritually lost with the rest of that wicked generation of people because salvation is a life long process. Hence his obedience in building the ark had everything to do with his spiritual salvation.

Even though Noah obeyed God (right doing-"righteous" and "walked with God") and therefore found 'grace in the eyes of God' in Genesis 6:8-9, had he disobeyed and not built the ark as commanded in Genesis 6:14 he would have become UNjust and fall from grace. Likewise, even though Abraham obeyed God in Genesis 12 in moving from his land, kindred and house, had he not obeyed in Genesis 22 in offering Isaac he would not have continued to stand just before God because again, justification/salvation is a process.

For one to argue Noah would have UNconditionally been spiritually saved anyway while disobeying God by not building the ark (or Abraham would have continued to be UNconditionally justified anyway while disobeying God in not offering Isaac) would imply a Christian today can likewise turn to live in disobedience to God by living in adultery, thievery, lying, murderer, etc yet saved anyway. This is what is commonly called 'cheap grace' for a reason.

Free gifts as justification/salvation come with preconditions, life long preconditions and working to meet the preconditions earn nothing.
After we have done the will of God, We might receive the promise. So let's not castaway our confidence Jesus will come. Do not draw back for he will have no pleasure in us. The Righteous shall live by faith.

Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

This faith is the root to which we please God, diligently seek Him. Through this faith Noah prepared the Ark and by preparing the Ark he became an heir of the righteousness which is BY FAITH. He was SAVED.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
 
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Ceallaigh

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The Christian's obedience, as Noah and Abrahams' obedience, will not be perfectly sinless all the time. The NT gives the Christian a second avenue of pardon by repenting of sins, [see example of Simon Acts 8 "Repent therefore of this thy wickedness"]. Therefore 'walking in the light' and confessing sins 1 John 1:7-9 are works of obedience that must be life long (present tense) for the Christian to remain saved.

From your post above are you arguing Noah, Abraham could impenitently disobeyed God and be saved anyway? That a Christian can turn and live impenitently in adultery, thievery, etc and be saved anyway?
If Noah, Abraham and the Christian can disobeyed God's commands and God will save them anyway, then it makes no sense to give commands in the first place. The commands would be inane, unless, have no good or reasonable purpose.

I'm not arguing, just questioning. Do you believe the only way God deals with disobedience is revoking salvation? Do you feel there's any indication that Jesus was going to revoke the apostles salvation for disobeying him?
 
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Danthemailman

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You admit one must first believe before he can repent.
One must first believe in the existence of God before one can afterward repent and believe the gospel. Mere "mental assent" belief precedes repentance and repentance precedes saving belief in Christ as I already thoroughly explained in post #249.

They could be considered unbelievers because belief void of obedience in repenting confession and baptism is a dead belief.
Belief void of trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation = unbeliever. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) Repentance precedes saving belief in Jesus so this belief is not without repentance (Acts 11:17,18) and the word of faith is in the mouth and heart of genuine believers (Romans 10:8-10) so it's not without confession (not two separate steps to salvation, but chronologically together) and water baptism "follows" saving belief in Jesus. (Acts 10:43-47)

According to your multi-step plan of salvation, you have Jesus sitting in heaven with a check list in his hand and it goes something like this: Believe (but still lost) Repent (but still lost) Confess (but still lost) Baptized (finally saved). We have passages of scripture like Luke 8:12 which simply say, .."believe (apart from additions or modifications) and be saved." So how can that be if you still must repent, confess and be water baptized "afterwards" in order to be saved according to your multi-step plan of salvation? Also, "confession made unto salvation" (Romans 10:10) precedes water baptism in your multi-step plan of salvation, which also becomes a problematic contradiction for you.

Even though the Jews "believed in God", yet in places it is said they "believed not" because they would not do what God said. Hence they "believed in God" (believed God exists) but they did not "believe God" as seen in their refusal to believe, refused to confess, refused to obey the gospel Romans 10:16.
Those who refuse to believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16) but instead trust in works for salvation do not believe God. The Jews who believed in the existence of God but would not do what God said demonstrates a heart of unbelief. Romans 10:1 - Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes... 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" They failed to obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel.

You are making a good case that 'belief alone' is dead apart from obedience.
Belief/faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation is alive in Christ and results in producing works (Ephesians 2:8-10) and is not an empty profession of faith/dead faith that "remains alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14-18) You seem to put the cart before the horse.

The devil's "belief only" could not save for it is void of obedience. If this "deeper belief/faith that trusts in Jesus" is void of obedience then it is just as dead and worthless as the devils' belief. There is no difference at all between the devil's "belief only" and the "belief only" you claim that saves.....for both are void of obedience to God's will.
You are still missing the heart of the issue. The devil's belief "mental assent" that "there is one God," yet they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan (and not Jesus) as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. There is a huge difference between the belief of devil's and belief in Jesus that saves. I already thoroughly explained this to you in post #249 but unfortunately, I can see that what I explained to you just went right over your head. John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Again, the reason those Jews did not have the right kind of faith is their faith did not move them to obey Christ. "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32. Jesus did not say to the Jews since you believed on Me you are saved but is saying since you believe do as I say in my word. (Luke 6:46). Their belief only could not make them free.
The right kind of faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation moves believers to obey Christ, but you must not put the cart before the horse. Their belief could not make them free because the stage of progress in their belief fell short of firmly rooted and established belief in Jesus resulting in salvation. When we read further on through John 8:59, we see that these Jews who were said to have believed in Him, turned out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in.

I agree that the Jews "belief in God's existence" could not save for they did not "believe God" in that they would not obey what God said in believing, confessing, obeying the gospel. Paul clearly says in Romans 10:1-3 those Jews were lost for they "have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God".
Your multi-step plan of salvation that culminates in salvation by water baptism is not obeying God. It's obeying your church that teaches this flawed plan of salvation. Read on in Romans 10:4 to see what Paul further said: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES. No multi-step out of order distorted gospel plan made there by Paul.

Again Paul is speaking to those who already believed in God but not right with God. hence they needed to bring forth fruit by repenting so they could then have a belief in Christ the NT requires. If Paul were dealing with atheist he would not tell them to first repent for they cannot repent as long as they have no belief at all.
I see that you are still reversing the Biblical order of repentance and saving belief/faith in Christ. The article that I shared with you from post #249 summed it up nicely:

The Church of Christ gospel “plan” is to hear, believe, repent, confess, and be “water” baptized for the forgiveness of sins. Here it is reasoned that if one will simply perform these “5 steps,” the believer will thereby save himself.

Notice that this plan places faith before repentance.

To those in the Churches of Christ, this is “common sense” because it is believed that ‘one must believe before he can repent.’ This view arises from their understanding of both “faith” and “repentance.”

“Faith” in the Churches of Christ is understood as nothing more than ‘intellectual assent” or accepting the facts of the Christian faith. To them it is believing God’s historical testimony about Himself, Jesus Christ, and that of the rest of the Bible.

Repentance on the other hand is understood as moral “self-reformation.”

In regards to faith, those in the Churches of Christ often fail to understand that there is a deeper, more substantive aspect of faith which is believing on Jesus Christ for eternal life, and most cannot distinguish between mere intellectual belief or assent from a personal faith that is trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.


Faith and Repentance
 
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Danthemailman

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In the great commission and taking the gospel to the lost, it depends on the state or stage of the lost person as to where the Christian begins to teach. If dealing with an atheist, then the Christian will need to start in Genesis 1 to first get the atheist to believe in God's existence then go from there to get the athiest's belief to move the atheist to obey God in repenting confessing and submitting to baptism. On the other hand, if the Christian encounters one who already believes in God, then the Christian does not have to begin in Genesis 1 but begin with the gospel, Maatthew 1, and teach Christ to this person and to obey what Christ commanded (John 14:15). In Acts 8 the eunuch already believe in God's existence therefore Phillip need not go back to Genesis 1. Phillip just needed to preach Jesus Christ which is what he did "Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus" which included doing what Jesus said in being baptized.
I agree that it depends on the state or stage of the lost person as to where the Christian begins to teach, yet ultimately, a person is not saved until he exercises saving belief/faith in Jesus which trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31 etc..). Obedience which "follows" is "works" and we are not saved by works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

In regards to the eunuch in Acts 8, in verses 36 and 37, we read - And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. His profession of faith preceded his water baptism, just as believing unto salvation preceded water baptism in (Acts 10:43-47) In John 20:31, we read - but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.

Confession and belief are 2 separate things...."Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:" John 12:42. Belief only void of confession is worthless and cannot save.
In John 12:42, do we know the real condition of these "believing" rulers' hearts? Was it (mere mental assent belief James 2:19) or (trust and reliance saving belief John 3:16)? We do know that they loved men's praises (verse 43) more than God's (John 5:44). Some may argue that the unwillingness of the chief rulers to confess Christ in this isolated situation throws doubt on the complete genuineness of their faith and others may argue that they simply have a weak moment in this isolated situation in front of the Pharisees. Does this mean they never confessed Christ at all?

The Apostle Peter at one point failed to confess Jesus before men (John 18:17-27), but after the Holy Spirit was given, he was a different man who boldly confessed Him (Acts 4:8-13). We know that Peter was saved even though he had a weak moment and the same may be true for these chief rulers as well. Does the text specifically say that they were saved or not saved? If the chief rulers truly believed (trusted in Christ for salvation) even though they had a weak moment (like Peter's situation) then they were saved (John 3:16). If their lack of confession was the result of a lack of genuine belief, then they are not saved (John 3:18). Regardless, this does not support your multi-step formula that culminates in salvation by water baptism.

(You are making a great case against 'belief only")
It's like you have not heard a word I said.

1 Corinthians 2:11 we would not know the things of God's mind unless God reveal those things to us, which He did. God selected certain individuals (Apostles and OT Prophets) inspired them with the Holy Ghost where they, by miraculous inspiration, received "words" from the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:13) and these inspired men wrote those words down where we today can read and understand those words thereby know the things of God Ephesians 3:3-4. The Holy Spirit therefore is the author of the written word and it is by hearing/reading this written word one learns about Christ and know of Christ's Lordship. So one saying Jesus is Lord is nothing miraculous that occurs separate and apart from hearing God's word, Romans 10:17.
1 Corinthians 2:14 - But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


The NIV is a poor attempt to force Calvinism into the Bible. Note how the NIV INCORRECTLY renders Romans 10:10 from the CORRECT rendering of the KJV:

NIV "For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."
KJV "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
Believes unto righteousness = saved. You think it means still lost? o_ORomans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. Does that also equate to "lost" in your opinion as well? It's your poor attempt to turn confession into a work for salvation after saving belief that is the issue here.

The NIV's attempts to have justification at 'belief only"...."you believe and are justified". Yet this error has one justified a second time when one confesses "profess your faith and are saved". So the NIV has one justified/saved 2 times, at the moment of belief and again at the moment of confession.
If one believes unto righteousness then they are justified. The AMPC reads - For with the heart a person believes (adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Christ) and so is justified (declared righteous, acceptable to God), and with the mouth he confesses (declares openly and speaks out freely his faith) and confirms [his] salvation.

As I already previously explained to you, confession with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. *Notice the reverse order from verse 9-10 - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. Romans 10:8 further confirms this - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching

Yet the KJV has it correct that belief and confession are UNTO salvation. Belief in and of itself does not save. Confession in and of itself does not save. But belief and confession moves one unto, towards salvation for one is not saved until one has obeyed by being water baptized for remission of sins. But it takes belief and confession to move one toward baptism. Hence those Corinthians were not saved/justified until they first had themselves "washed".
Sadly, you remain mixed up. :( Belief is unto righteousness and confession is unto salvation. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER - "chronologically together." How is one not saved until after water baptism, which follows belief and confession in your multi-step plan of salvation when belief is "unto righteousness" and "confession is unto salvation?" It's a contradiction and your multi-step flawed plan of salvation that culminates in water baptism is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics.

I am arguing against "repentance before belief" when it comes to unbelievers as atheists for they cannot repent while in total unbelief. Yet in cases where men ALREADY believe in God as those Jews, they were to repent, bring forth fruit under the OT law they lived under, whereby they could then come to have a type of faith in Christ the NT requires.
An atheist would first need to change their mind and believe that God exists before they can further change their mind and trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. The Jews already believed that God exists, but they still needed to change their mind and trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Faith that saves trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and this kind of faith results in producing good works, yet we are still saved through faith and not by works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) It's not hard to understand. It's just hard for you to ACCEPT.
 
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Butterball1

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I'm not arguing, just questioning. Do you believe the only way God deals with disobedience is revoking salvation? Do you feel there's any indication that Jesus was going to revoke the apostles salvation for disobeying him?

God's nature being perfectly holy and just, God cannot overlook sin/disobedience. Those Christians that harden their heart and will not humbly repent will be lost, Romans 2:4-5.....

A favorite verse of mine: "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." 2 Chronicles 7:14

Starts with the Christian humbling himself without humbling there would be no praying, no seeking, no turning from wickedness.
 
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Ceallaigh

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God's nature being perfectly holy and just, God cannot overlook sin/disobedience. Those Christians that harden their heart and will not humbly repent will be lost, Romans 2:4-5.....

A favorite verse of mine: "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." 2 Chronicles 7:14

Starts with the Christian humbling himself without humbling there would be no praying, no seeking, no turning from wickedness.

So what you posted above applies to the apostles who kept disobeying Jesus by falling asleep after He told them to stay awake?
 
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