Understanding "the beginning" and "the end"

sovereigngrace · Feb 12, 2021

claninja said:
Of course I agree with you, but tell that to the 1st century Christian Jews who were zealous for law. This in turn required James to ask Paul to partake in a purification ritual so as to satisfy the minds of the Christian Jews.

I'm curious if the Jews from Asia were stirring up only non Christian Jews against Paul, or if Christian Jews were a part of the riot as well.

It must have been such a revolutionary shift for most to move from the ancient old covenant to the new.

Christian Gedge · Feb 12, 2021

claninja said:
The point I was making was that the book of Acts recorded Christian Jews as being zealous for the law (acts 21:20). James, one of the elders, even goes so far to ask Paul to partake in a purification ritual to put at ease the minds of the Jewish Christians ( acts 21:21-24).

So while the old covenant was made obsolete at the cross, many Christians Jews still partook in it.

Why do you think that is? It’s an honest question, as I’m not so sure myself.

I think the Jerusalem elders were trying to respect Jewish national customs without practising circumcision or the Old Covenant’s sacrifices for sin. (Passover, D.of A. etc) It would have been a delicate balancing act not dissimilar to the quandary a modern missionary might have when conversion clashes with culture.

We already know from Acts 15 that Christian leaders struggled with how they should deal with these matters, and by chapter 21 the issue was raising its head again.

So yes, there would have been Jewish Christians trying to have ‘a foot in both camps’ so to speak. However they were plainly wrong and the elders would’ve told them so. In particular, there would have been no compromise when it came to atoning sacrifices.

So, getting back to the opening topic: You have been saying that the Old Covenant gradually expired between AD 30 and AD 70 when the temple finally got destroyed. Sovereign Grace and I are saying the Old Covenant stopped as instantly as saying, “it is finished!” My number one study over the last 20 years is how the Old Testament timelines were counting down with inexorable precision. So, I see AD30 - 70 as the aftermath, not the residue, of the Old Covenant.

claninja · Feb 13, 2021

Christian Gedge said:
I think the Jerusalem elders were trying to respect Jewish national customs without practising circumcision or the Old Covenant’s sacrifices for sin. (Passover, D.of A. etc) It would have been a delicate balancing act not dissimilar to the quandary a modern missionary might have when conversion clashes with culture.

We already know from Acts 15 that Christian leaders struggled with how they should deal with these matters, and by chapter 21 the issue was raising its head again.

So yes, there would have been Jewish Christians trying to have ‘a foot in both camps’ so to speak. However they were plainly wrong and the elders would’ve told them so. In particular, there would have been no compromise when it came to atoning sacrifices.

The council of Jerusalem settled an issue raised by some Christian Jewish believers, among whom some were likely false believers, who argued that GENTILE converts should obey the law and be circumcised "in order to be saved".

Acts 15:1 Then some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.

Galatians 2:4 This issue arose because some false brothers had come in under false pretenses to spy on our freedom in Christ Jesus, in order to enslave us.

Acts 15:5-6 But some believers from the party of the Pharisees stood up and declared, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.” So the apostles and elders met to look into this matter.

Peter and James ruled that GENTILE converts did not need to partake in circumcision nor be burdened by the law, with the exception of 4 things, for it is not works that saves
Jew and gentile, but grace.

acts 15:10-11 Now then, why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? On the contrary, we believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

Acts 15:19-20 It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not cause trouble for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals, and from blood.

However, contrary to the ruling by the Jerusalem council, some "Christian" Jews still promoted circumcision for GENTILE converts in order to be saved.

Acts 16:3 Paul wanted Timothy to accompany him, so he took him and circumcised him on account of the Jews in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.

Galatians 6:13 For the circumcised do not even keep the law themselves, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.

IMHO, these "Christian" Jews were responsible for the spread of false and out of context information in regards to Paul's teaching of circumcision, for Paul, in none of his letters teaches Jews to forsake circumcision nor the law of Moses.

Galatians 2:4 This issue arose because some false brothers had come in under false pretenses to spy on our freedom in Christ Jesus, in order to enslave us.

Acts 21:21and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs.

Paul's teachings are in agreement with council of Jerusalem in that:

1.) Gentile converts do not need to partake in circumcision (1 corinthians 7:18)

2.) works of the law do not save (galatians 2:16), but all are saved by grace (ephesians 2:8)

3.) the law is upheld through loving God and loving your neighbor through faith in Christ (romans 13:10, galatians 5:14)

4.) Circumcision is of value IF one is able to keep the law perfectly (romans 2:25, galatians 5:3)

5.) There is no boasting in either being physically circumcised or uncircumcised when one is a new creation in Christ ( Galatians 6:15, Galatians 5:6)

6.) Jewish believers are no longer "under" or "captive" to the law in regards to the old covenant agreement, but are now free to fulfill the law (love God and neighbor) by serving in the new way of the Spirit (romans 7:1-6)

Paul, by agreeing to partake in the purification ceremony at the request of James, is demonstrating that he lives in observance to the law and has not been telling JEWS to forsake the law and circumcision.

Acts 21:24 take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.

Christian Gedge said:
So, getting back to the opening topic: You have been saying that the Old Covenant gradually expired between AD 30 and AD 70 when the temple finally got destroyed. Sovereign Grace and I are saying the Old Covenant stopped as instantly as saying, “it is finished!” My number one study over the last 20 years is how the Old Testament timelines were counting down with inexorable precision. So, I see AD30 - 70 as the aftermath, not the residue, of the Old Covenant.

I believe the old covenant was brought to fulfillment in Christ, the true Israel of God (Matthew 5:18-19, Luke 24:44), and the old covenant agreement between God and the nation of Israel was made obsolete at the cross ( hebrews 8:13, hebrews 10:9, galatians 3:24, colossians 2:14).

This old covenant agreement between God and the nation of Israel, that was made obsolete at the cross, was fading away and ready to vanish (Hebrews 8:13, colossians 2:14).

I view this "fading away and ready to vanish" as the time period between 30ad and 70ad, in which non-Christian Jews and Christian Jews partook in the law. And those in that generation that rejected Christ were cut off (acts 3:23) and destroyed (Luke 19:40-44).

Again, I think the exodus is a good parallel. Israel was released from captivity in Egypt and given the old covenant. Then wandered in the desert for 40 years prior to entering the promised land. During the 40 years many wanted to return to captivity in Egypt, but that generation was destroyed before entering the promised land.

So to, was the new covenant established at the cross, but many wanted to return to captivity under the old covenant during the 40 years leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem, in which that wicked generation was destroyed.

sovereigngrace · Feb 17, 2021

Timtofly said:
What? You move up a new heaven and earth by 1000 years, and then reject someone who moves it even earlier?

Repeated Scripture locates the replacement of the current heavens and earth with the new heavens and earth and incorruption at the second coming. Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15 shows us that this occurs at the second coming. This is indeed the end of time, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection. It is the beginning of incorruption. It is the beginning of a new arrangement.

grafted branch · Feb 17, 2021

claninja said:
Paul, by agreeing to partake in the purification ceremony at the request of James, is demonstrating that he lives in observance to the law and has not been telling JEWS to forsake the law and circumcision.

I think there is one other point here that shouldn’t be overlooked.

In 1 Corinthians 9:20 Paul’s modus operandi, toward the Jews that are under the law, is as if he is under the law; that he might gain them that are under the law.

In Acts 21:19-20 when Paul tells James and the elders what God had done among the Gentiles by his ministry, they glorified the Lord. In Acts 22:21-22 when Paul speaks to the people, they gave him audience until they heard the statement about Paul being sent unto the Gentiles.

So these “Christian” Jews not only have an issue with Paul about the false accusations but also about the Gospel going to the Gentiles which would be an issue against James and the elders.

IMHO it would be reasonable to think that James’s request to Paul was asked knowing Paul’s MO and Paul agreed to the request to “gain them that are under the law”.

sovereigngrace · Feb 20, 2021

Timtofly said:
What? You move up a new heaven and earth by 1000 years, and then reject someone who moves it even earlier?

Explain what you mean here.

Timtofly · Feb 20, 2021

Freedm said:
Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

This tells me that heaven and earth will indeed pass away when the law is passed away, as all was fulfilled when the old covenant was destroyed leaving only the kingdom of Christ, an everlasting kingdom. And since I believe the law has now passed away, I must logically also believe that the "heaven and earth" referenced here, have passed.

Obviously if this is the literal heaven and earth, then this makes no sense, therefore it must not mean the literal heaven and earth. Either that, or the law is still in full effect, and I can not accept that.

sovereigngrace said:
Explain what you mean here.

He claimed the NHNE happened at the Cross.

You claim they happen at the Second Coming.

The NHNE will not be for another 1000 years.

sovereigngrace · Feb 20, 2021

Timtofly said:
He claimed the NHNE happened at the Cross.

You claim they happen at the Second Coming.

The NHNE will not be for another 1000 years.

Not true! The NHNE arrive at the second coming. Isaiah 34:1-4, 8: “Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree … For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.”

This is total destruction – for who and what is left behind. This is talking about the topography of the physical earth and starry host being totally destroyed. There are no survivors!

Isaiah 34 is speaking about the physical change that affects the earth, heavens and elements when Jesus comes. Premil has to often change the meaning of Hebrew and Greek words in order to get that doctrine to fit. Premil explains away the literal meaning of text after text and replaces with its alternative definition. This is not the way that Scripture should be approached. This is classic eisegesis. There is so much Scripture that forbids the Premil theory that Premil is forced to spiritualize away the clearest and most literal of Scripture, ironically it literalizes the one book that is the most symbolic in Scripture (Revelation). This alone is grounds to reject the doctrine.

Joel 2:10-11: “The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?”

Isaiah 13:9-11: “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars (kowkab) of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.”

The current universe and stars are all going to be changed when He comes. Christ will be the eternal light on the new earth!

The whole description indicates this corrupt earth and the heavens (outer space) we know now will be no more.

The 3 gospels writers also testified the same.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-30, 35-36: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory … Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”

Jesus said in Mark 13:24-26, 31-32: “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars (aster) of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory … Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”

Jesus said in Luke 21:25-27, 33-36: “And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars (astron); and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory … Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

Romans 8:19-23 continues, “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption (phthora or decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

There is a direct connection between the liberation of “creation” and the liberation of the “sons of God.” Both the creature and creation are waiting for “the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body” – or resurrection day. This is the day when both will simultaneously be delivered from the aforementioned “bondage of corruption.” The day of redemption is shown throughout Scripture to be the second coming of Christ. It is there is that man experiences the final part of redemption – the redemption of his body.

Peter said in 2 Peter 3:10-13: “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Hebrews 1:10-12: “And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.”

John said in Revelation 6:13-17: “And the stars (aster) of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

The whole description indicates that the heavens (outer space) we know now will be no more.

The current universe and stars are all going to be changed when He comes. Christ will be the eternal light on the new earth!

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth [Gr. gē] and the heaven [Gr. ouranos] fled away [Gr. pheugo]; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”

Read Revelation 21:23: "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."

Revelation 22:5: "And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."

Timtofly · Feb 20, 2021

You are adding earth to these text. I agree the heavens and this so called universe will dissolve like a spiritual vapor that never existed, except in the minds of those deceived by Satan to think earth is a planet that revolves around the sun.

The earth is reality. The sun is just a light in the sky that moves around like a horse in a race track. Psalm 19:4-6

4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

Yet there will still be a harvest on earth. There will still be a chance that Satan gets 42 months and there will still be an earth to live on that will be regenerated by God after the battle of Armageddon. God's Word is not going to pass and thus earth will not pass, until after the 1000 years. Then at the GWT, Christ will offer up the kingdom and defeat Death. Then the NHNE will change around those on earth in a smooth transition. Peter in 2 Peter 3 is still talking about the 6 or less years of destruction that start at the Second Coming. Yet if God allows, there is still time given to Satan during this period of earth wide destruction. Peter still points out that after heaven is removed as currently viewed by humanity, we still wait until the final end with patience. God will set apart this 1000 years for Himself. 6 Days of work, and on the 7th Day, the last 1000 years, sin will once more not exist, and Satan will be bound for 1000 years. The 7th Trumpet is the end of Adam's 6 days of punishment. No longer than the 6 periods of God's creating at the very beginning. Exodus 20:8-11

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

I agree that what we are taught in science class will be obliterated. It does not exist as we think it does any way. At the 6th Seal, the Second Coming, the universe will be rolled away like a vapor that is blocking our view of reality. The spiritual will be joined to the physical and it will be one single clear view of Genesis 1 creation. Satan's deception will come to a cataclysmic end. So much so, that every single human on earth will say to the mountains and rocks,

"Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This is not the total annihilation of amil thought. These humans still have to endure years of death and destruction up until the wrath of God, or Satan's 42 months and the 7 vials at the end of Satan's destruction on earth. The 7th vial is preparation of Armageddon. Armageddon is the last hour of the sound of the 7th Trumpet. Then sin and Adam's flesh and blood will have been finished. No more of either on this earth.

sovereigngrace · Feb 20, 2021

Timtofly said:
You are adding earth to these text. I agree the heavens and this so called universe will dissolve like a spiritual vapor that never existed, except in the minds of those deceived by Satan to think earth is a planet that revolves around the sun.

The earth is reality. The sun is just a light in the sky that moves around like a horse in a race track. Psalm 19:4-6

4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

Yet there will still be a harvest on earth. There will still be a chance that Satan gets 42 months and there will still be an earth to live on that will be regenerated by God after the battle of Armageddon. God's Word is not going to pass and thus earth will not pass, until after the 1000 years. Then at the GWT, Christ will offer up the kingdom and defeat Death. Then the NHNE will change around those on earth in a smooth transition. Peter in 2 Peter 3 is still talking about the 6 or less years of destruction that start at the Second Coming. Yet if God allows, there is still time given to Satan during this period of earth wide destruction. Peter still points out that after heaven is removed as currently viewed by humanity, we still wait until the final end with patience. God will set apart this 1000 years for Himself. 6 Days of work, and on the 7th Day, the last 1000 years, sin will once more not exist, and Satan will be bound for 1000 years. The 7th Trumpet is the end of Adam's 6 days of punishment. No longer than the 6 periods of God's creating at the very beginning. Exodus 20:8-11

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

I agree that what we are taught in science class will be obliterated. It does not exist as we think it does any way. At the 6th Seal, the Second Coming, the universe will be rolled away like a vapor that is blocking our view of reality. The spiritual will be joined to the physical and it will be one single clear view of Genesis 1 creation. Satan's deception will come to a cataclysmic end. So much so, that every single human on earth will say to the mountains and rocks,

"Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This is not the total annihilation of amil thought. These humans still have to endure years of death and destruction up until the wrath of God, or Satan's 42 months and the 7 vials at the end of Satan's destruction on earth. The 7th vial is preparation of Armageddon. Armageddon is the last hour of the sound of the 7th Trumpet. Then sin and Adam's flesh and blood will have been finished. No more of either on this earth.

Your false teaching is causing you to dismiss clear and repeated Scripture. The above Scriptures prove that no one will survive the return of Christ. This disproves Premil. The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalms 37:9-11, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Your fight is with the Book.

Timtofly · Feb 20, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Your false teaching is causing you to dismiss clear and repeated Scripture. The above Scriptures prove that no one will survive the return of Christ. This disproves Premil. The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalms 37:9-11, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Your fight is with the Book.

So there is no tribulation at all? How can you deny the majority of the book of Revelation and the Olivet Discourse? There is no harvest. No Satan and his angels on earth? No mark of the beast or beheading? You cannot prove this happens before the Second Coming.

sovereigngrace · Feb 20, 2021

Timtofly said:
So there is no tribulation at all? How can you deny the majority of the book of Revelation and the Olivet Discourse? There is no harvest. No Satan and his angels on earth? No mark of the beast or beheading? You cannot prove this happens before the Second Coming.

This all happens before the Second Coming.

Timtofly · Feb 20, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
This all happens before the Second Coming.

It cannot, because both the Son and Lord of the vineyard come and the church is removed. The harvest is carried out per Matthew 24, and the vineyard is given to Satan for 42 months.

Do you falsely teach Satan and the church are co-stewards?

The 6 Trumpets have to sound first. The 7 Thunders happen next. Then the 7th Trumpet and the abomination of desolation. The Second Coming starts the harvest. Because the 6 Trumpets are the time of Jacob's trouble. If a third of humanity dies then, why is this not the separation and judgment of the sheep and the goats? Both the sheep and goats have their souls harvested by the angels and sent to their eternal reward. How does this make sense that Christ separates them after nothing exists any more, when John gives us the 6 Trumpets showing us the time of Jacob's trouble and what happens when the sheep and goats are judged? After Armageddon no human is alive. They are alive at the Second Coming prior to the 6 Trumpets.

You have to totally change the outcome of Armageddon to get your chronology to work. You cannot kill all humans at Armageddon with nothing left to harvest, nor can you raise the sheep and goats from the dead as those living from Adam until now. Where is this found in Scripture?

At Armageddon all flesh is dead, Satan is bound in sheol for 1000 years, and only those who lived during the tribulation prior to Armageddon are resurrected. The FP and the image/beast/AC are cast into the Lake of Fire. Does the Lake of Fire exist today? Have the FP and this beast been in the Lake of Fire since the Cross, the same time frame you claim Satan has been bound? Was Armageddon at the Cross and the Second Coming both? Was the Cross the end of existence when Satan was bound at the Second Coming, Armageddon, when the FP and beast were cast into the Lake of Fire? How can this all be the same climactic event?

John gave us the order of events and in the right chronology. The Seals bring the church to a close, and the Second Coming is the opening of the 5th and 6th Seal. Glorified with the robes of white, and the church is complete in the restored image as sons of God.

Then God deals with the house of Jacob. Both God on the throne and the Lamb come as the Lord and Son of the vineyard to carry out the final harvest. The sheep and goats are separated during the Trumpets. The Thunders are the judgment of the Nations. The wheat and tares are harvested. Then the ending ceremony of the 7th Trumpet. All is complete and the Millennium starts.

A slight hitch happens mid week. The Covenant is confirmed, but found unbalanced. Found wanting. Satan is allowed 42 months as Steward of the vineyard. Not after Armageddon and the 7 vials of God's Wrath. Satan is not given Stewardship before the final harvest. Satan is not given Stewardship before the sound of the 7th Trumpet. Satan is not given Stewardship before the Second Coming. Satan is not given Stewardship while the church is the Steward. Satan is only allowed any time because the Covenant was confirmed by the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, and the Covenant being totally confirmed hit a snag.

Why?

Because the church did not recover from apostasy. The church was deceived by Satan. In knowledge both physical and spiritual. No one can even agree on eschatology of how Satan has deceived humanity nor even who the FP and beast are. They are two literal beings tossed into the literal Lake of Fire which does not even exist yet. Or it does and is behind the smoke screen of Satan's deception.

The church has turned Revelation into some figurative mine field so they can rationalize away the truth of God's Word. The Second Coming should not be the event that wakes the church up. Obeying the Holy Spirit Who is convicting the world of sin and wickedness should be keeping us awake with the burden of a golden harvest.

Why deny God both a harvest and 1000 years of reign without sin, and the work and influence of Satan? We do not share Stewardship with Satan, and should not fear anything he throws at the world. Even though he is not bound, the church is not bound by his demands. Though it seems the church has given over control in every aspect of life because of this great apostasy we think is biblical theology and doctrine, when it is just the opposite. The church quotes Scripture and then interprets it with the voice of Satan. Denying the very words on the page, because the turning of literal thought into figurative concepts allows them to change the very Word of God.

The church cannot blame the future confirmation of the Covenant or inability to confirm on the first century Jews nor on the current atheistic state of Israel. The church can only take responsibility as the current Stewards of the vinyard, and the current state of affairs of the vineyard. The church cannot even blame Satan nor his deception because the church was warned in the first century, and has literally no excuse. The church has seemingly handed over the reigns to Satan in all theology and knowledge. Even in attempts to thwart apostasy the church has gone overboard in the wrong direction every time she thought she was stamping out heresy. The church herself was literally suppressing the truth. Even today apostasy is suppressing the truth. That forbidden fruit taste too good and looks too much like the knowledge we need to survive, when all it does is kill us.

At the Second Coming some will blame Satan, just like Eve did. Perhaps the punishment will be enduring through the tribulation like the church teaches as an apt reward for disobedience? Perhaps being beheaded will be the only chance of peace for this punishment. Should God hold to the thought after being beheaded there is no resurrection and 1000 year reign? Will the truth be convincing enough at the second before the head is cut off, and one will thank God to be able to reign with Christ for 1000 years as one's dying breath?

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

sovereigngrace · Feb 20, 2021

Timtofly said:
It cannot, because both the Son and Lord of the vineyard come and the church is removed. The harvest is carried out per Matthew 24, and the vineyard is given to Satan for 42 months.

Do you falsely teach Satan and the church are co-stewards?

The 6 Trumpets have to sound first. The 7 Thunders happen next. Then the 7th Trumpet and the abomination of desolation. The Second Coming starts the harvest. Because the 6 Trumpets are the time of Jacob's trouble. If a third of humanity dies then, why is this not the separation and judgment of the sheep and the goats? Both the sheep and goats have their souls harvested by the angels and sent to their eternal reward. How does this make sense that Christ separates them after nothing exists any more, when John gives us the 6 Trumpets showing us the time of Jacob's trouble and what happens when the sheep and goats are judged? After Armageddon no human is alive. They are alive at the Second Coming prior to the 6 Trumpets.

You have to totally change the outcome of Armageddon to get your chronology to work. You cannot kill all humans at Armageddon with nothing left to harvest, nor can you raise the sheep and goats from the dead as those living from Adam until now. Where is this found in Scripture?

At Armageddon all flesh is dead, Satan is bound in sheol for 1000 years, and only those who lived during the tribulation prior to Armageddon are resurrected. The FP and the image/beast/AC are cast into the Lake of Fire. Does the Lake of Fire exist today? Have the FP and this beast been in the Lake of Fire since the Cross, the same time frame you claim Satan has been bound? Was Armageddon at the Cross and the Second Coming both? Was the Cross the end of existence when Satan was bound at the Second Coming, Armageddon, when the FP and beast were cast into the Lake of Fire? How can this all be the same climactic event?

John gave us the order of events and in the right chronology. The Seals bring the church to a close, and the Second Coming is the opening of the 5th and 6th Seal. Glorified with the robes of white, and the church is complete in the restored image as sons of God.

Then God deals with the house of Jacob. Both God on the throne and the Lamb come as the Lord and Son of the vineyard to carry out the final harvest. The sheep and goats are separated during the Trumpets. The Thunders are the judgment of the Nations. The wheat and tares are harvested. Then the ending ceremony of the 7th Trumpet. All is complete and the Millennium starts.

A slight hitch happens mid week. The Covenant is confirmed, but found unbalanced. Found wanting. Satan is allowed 42 months as Steward of the vineyard. Not after Armageddon and the 7 vials of God's Wrath. Satan is not given Stewardship before the final harvest. Satan is not given Stewardship before the sound of the 7th Trumpet. Satan is not given Stewardship before the Second Coming. Satan is not given Stewardship while the church is the Steward. Satan is only allowed any time because the Covenant was confirmed by the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, and the Covenant being totally confirmed hit a snag.

Why?

Because the church did not recover from apostasy. The church was deceived by Satan. In knowledge both physical and spiritual. No one can even agree on eschatology of how Satan has deceived humanity nor even who the FP and beast are. They are two literal beings tossed into the literal Lake of Fire which does not even exist yet. Or it does and is behind the smoke screen of Satan's deception.

The church has turned Revelation into some figurative mine field so they can rationalize away the truth of God's Word. The Second Coming should not be the event that wakes the church up. Obeying the Holy Spirit Who is convicting the world of sin and wickedness should be keeping us awake with the burden of a golden harvest.

Why deny God both a harvest and 1000 years of reign without sin, and the work and influence of Satan? We do not share Stewardship with Satan, and should not fear anything he throws at the world. Even though he is not bound, the church is not bound by his demands. Though it seems the church has given over control in every aspect of life because of this great apostasy we think is biblical theology and doctrine, when it is just the opposite. The church quotes Scripture and then interprets it with the voice of Satan. Denying the very words on the page, because the turning of literal thought into figurative concepts allows them to change the very Word of God.

The church cannot blame the future confirmation of the Covenant or inability to confirm on the first century Jews nor on the current atheistic state of Israel. The church can only take responsibility as the current Stewards of the vinyard, and the current state of affairs of the vineyard. The church cannot even blame Satan nor his deception because the church was warned in the first century, and has literally no excuse. The church has seemingly handed over the reigns to Satan in all theology and knowledge. Even in attempts to thwart apostasy the church has gone overboard in the wrong direction every time she thought she was stamping out heresy. The church herself was literally suppressing the truth. Even today apostasy is suppressing the truth. That forbidden fruit taste too good and looks too much like the knowledge we need to survive, when all it does is kill us.

At the Second Coming some will blame Satan, just like Eve did. Perhaps the punishment will be enduring through the tribulation like the church teaches as an apt reward for disobedience? Perhaps being beheaded will be the only chance of peace for this punishment. Should God hold to the thought after being beheaded there is no resurrection and 1000 year reign? Will the truth be convincing enough at the second before the head is cut off, and one will thank God to be able to reign with Christ for 1000 years as one's dying breath?

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Because you do not grasp the location of the 42 months you fail to understand the teaching of the rest of Scripture pertaining to the second coming. The fact is: the second coming is climactic. It is the end. You obviously have nothing to rebut my previous post.

BTW, we are in Rev 20 now. The end of Rev 20 correlates with every other second coming passage in Scripture. Premil contradicts the rest of Scripture. That is why you avoid it.

Timtofly · Feb 20, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Because you do not grasp the location of the 42 months you fail to understand the teaching of the rest of Scripture pertaining to the second coming. The fact is: the second coming is climactic. It is the end. You obviously have nothing to rebut my previous post.

BTW, we are in Rev 20 now. The end of Rev 20 correlates with every other second coming passage in Scripture. Premil contradicts the rest of Scripture. That is why you avoid it.

Does that mean you hold to the Preterist notion that even the 7th Trumpet has sounded?

Show me in Revelation that the 7th Trumpet does not last for 8 days? Sunday to Sunday. The 7th Trumpet being the week the Messiah present on earth confirms the Covenant. Can this Confirmation happen any where else besides Jerusalem and the final harvest of all the vineyard?

This Covenant has everything to do with the vineyard which is literally the earth. God never established a Covenant with beings in heaven or under the earth. The only place it can be confirmed is in Jerusalem on earth.

Is Satan’s 42 months after Armageddon or wrapped up at Armageddon?

You literally think all Seals, Trumpets, Thunders, and vials have been historically fulfilled and are not literal at all like full Preterism?

Armageddon is not fire come down from heaven. Armageddon is not spiritually figurative of fire come down from heaven.

You have to deny that Christ comes down to Armageddon exactly 42 months and 4 days since leaving Jerusalem during the sounding of the 7th Trumpet which was supposed to be the week of Confirming the Covenant. This confirmation was after the final harvest which had to be carried out as part of the Confirmation as the separation of the sheep from the goats and the tares and the wheat.

In order to Confirm the Covenant, the Second Coming had to happen for God on the throne and the Lamb to be present to make the Confirmation.

Yet you conflate the separation of sheep and goats by works, that which was physically performed in the name of the Lord, with Salvation by Grace through faith/trust in God. You conflate the wheat and tares of the final harvest with the history of the last 1990 years. Thus the Trumpets and Thunders have historically already happened (according to you), yet never Confirmed physically by God, so are still future. Jesus said that the Second Coming was physical and the time to separate the sheep and goats, yet you refute Jesus' very words and declare it has happened figuratively already.

sovereigngrace · Feb 21, 2021

Timtofly said:
Does that mean you hold to the Preterist notion that even the 7th Trumpet has sounded?

Show me in Revelation that the 7th Trumpet does not last for 8 days? Sunday to Sunday. The 7th Trumpet being the week the Messiah present on earth confirms the Covenant. Can this Confirmation happen any where else besides Jerusalem and the final harvest of all the vineyard?

Where does it show this in the Bible? You are just forcing your false beliefs into the sacred text. This is adding unto Scripture. The last trumpet is just that - the final trumpet. It is climactic. It is the trump of war. It ushers in total and immediate destruction.

Christ said Himself, in Matthew 24:29-31, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This is the end!

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” His appearing sees “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”

1 Corinthians 15:22-24, 51-53 describes a ‘last trump’ saying, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his Coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power ... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

There is only one last trumpet, it means final trumpet - it sounds at Christ's climactic return. The word eschatos, from where we get our word English eschatology, and simply means end, last, farthest or final.

The Coming of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” It is this all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.

By clear implication, if the last trump relates to the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ there must be others that precede it. Revelation seems to support this weighty inference. Moreover, the seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the only set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture. In the light of the explicit teaching and consistent pattern relating to the last trump elsewhere in the New Testament, and in order for our viewpoint to be true, accurate, compatible and complete (and all truth must fulfil this demanding criteria), the last trumpet in Revelation – number seven – must be a clear, vivid picture of the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Notwithstanding, when the Bible student carefully analyses the graphic descriptive detail of the seventh trumpet in Revelation in the light of other like Scripture he is left in no doubt to its subject matter and its startling cohesion with other prophetic readings. Only a blinkered eschatology student could deny that the last trumpet outlined in Revelation 10 is anything other that the same last trumpet outlined in other New Testament passages and a beautiful symbolic picture of the one final glorious Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 10:1-4 declares, describing the seventh trumpet, “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious second coming. We will the symbolism shortly.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

There is clearly a major dilemma here for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also makes reference to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious Second Coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.

The chronological hypothesis in relation to the complete book of Revelation is defective in the extreme as, by its very nature, it must project chapters 11-22 into ‘the age that is to come’, as from this chapter on, time shall clearly be no more. If the dispensationalist is consistent, it must exclude the prophetic relevance of chapters 11-22 to the Church and mankind today or to any generation preceding the second coming of the Lord. In reality, the chronological theory capitulates at this juncture, like other similar readings, enjoying not even the remotest support. In fact, it undermines the very character and import of the book of Revelation which embodies a number of repeated cycles outlining God’s Sovereign dealings with both the righteous and the wicked. Dealings that include the great overall battle between good and evil, between Christ and Satan, the Church and its enemies.

We must first of all recognise, this is the second of seven similar symbolic parallels relating to intra-advent period, each of which take us up to the one final future all-consummating Coming of Christ (the day of God’s wrath) and the end of the world (when time shall undoubtedly be no more). This pattern of repeating the record of the same event from different angles is common throughout Scripture on most themes, none more that the glorious Coming of Christ.

The third parallel in Revelation 11:15 also makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the Pretribulationist doctrine.

The respective chronological views dismiss the correct translation “there should be time no longer” and replace it by ‘there should be no more delay’. However, those who do such are still faced with insurmountable mountains, some of which we have already highlighted. Moreover, this is an undoubted forced interpretation, which must be opposed on several fronts.

Firstly, this is undoubtedly the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ – the end – it has absolutely nothing to do with delaying the days.

Secondly, the King James Version interprets the passage correctly and in context: “chronos ouketi estai”

‘Time - no longer – there shall be’!!!

Thirdly, the above interpretation of the Greek in this passage is in perfect and harmonious agreement with their consistent usage everywhere else in Scripture. Those who interpret it otherwise probably do so in an attempt to justify the Pre-mil theory, and the myriads of goats that their paradigm produces during their millennium.

Also, the interpretation of these Greek words in this passage, in the AV, is in clear and absolute agreement with their consistent usage throughout the rest of Scripture. Those therefore who interpret it otherwise probably do so to explain away the undoubted finality of the second coming or to support the inconsistent Pre-mil theory. The word chronos in this reading, which is rendered “time” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of “time” or “times” in Scripture.

The next verse, verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

The End!!!

The unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump - the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” NOT for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.”

Timtofly · Feb 21, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Where does it show this in the Bible? You are just forcing your false beliefs into the sacred text. This is adding unto Scripture. The last trumpet is just that - the final trumpet. It is climactic. It is the trump of war. It ushers in total and immediate destruction.

Christ said Himself, in Matthew 24:29-31, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This is the end!

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” His appearing sees “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”

1 Corinthians 15:22-24, 51-53 describes a ‘last trump’ saying, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his Coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power ... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

There is only one last trumpet, it means final trumpet - it sounds at Christ's climactic return. The word eschatos, from where we get our word English eschatology, and simply means end, last, farthest or final.

The Coming of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” It is this all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.

By clear implication, if the last trump relates to the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ there must be others that precede it. Revelation seems to support this weighty inference. Moreover, the seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the only set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture. In the light of the explicit teaching and consistent pattern relating to the last trump elsewhere in the New Testament, and in order for our viewpoint to be true, accurate, compatible and complete (and all truth must fulfil this demanding criteria), the last trumpet in Revelation – number seven – must be a clear, vivid picture of the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Notwithstanding, when the Bible student carefully analyses the graphic descriptive detail of the seventh trumpet in Revelation in the light of other like Scripture he is left in no doubt to its subject matter and its startling cohesion with other prophetic readings. Only a blinkered eschatology student could deny that the last trumpet outlined in Revelation 10 is anything other that the same last trumpet outlined in other New Testament passages and a beautiful symbolic picture of the one final glorious Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 10:1-4 declares, describing the seventh trumpet, “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious second coming. We will the symbolism shortly.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

There is clearly a major dilemma here for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also makes reference to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious Second Coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.

The chronological hypothesis in relation to the complete book of Revelation is defective in the extreme as, by its very nature, it must project chapters 11-22 into ‘the age that is to come’, as from this chapter on, time shall clearly be no more. If the dispensationalist is consistent, it must exclude the prophetic relevance of chapters 11-22 to the Church and mankind today or to any generation preceding the second coming of the Lord. In reality, the chronological theory capitulates at this juncture, like other similar readings, enjoying not even the remotest support. In fact, it undermines the very character and import of the book of Revelation which embodies a number of repeated cycles outlining God’s Sovereign dealings with both the righteous and the wicked. Dealings that include the great overall battle between good and evil, between Christ and Satan, the Church and its enemies.

We must first of all recognise, this is the second of seven similar symbolic parallels relating to intra-advent period, each of which take us up to the one final future all-consummating Coming of Christ (the day of God’s wrath) and the end of the world (when time shall undoubtedly be no more). This pattern of repeating the record of the same event from different angles is common throughout Scripture on most themes, none more that the glorious Coming of Christ.

The third parallel in Revelation 11:15 also makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the Pretribulationist doctrine.

The respective chronological views dismiss the correct translation “there should be time no longer” and replace it by ‘there should be no more delay’. However, those who do such are still faced with insurmountable mountains, some of which we have already highlighted. Moreover, this is an undoubted forced interpretation, which must be opposed on several fronts.

Firstly, this is undoubtedly the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ – the end – it has absolutely nothing to do with delaying the days.

Secondly, the King James Version interprets the passage correctly and in context: “chronos ouketi estai”

‘Time - no longer – there shall be’!!!

Thirdly, the above interpretation of the Greek in this passage is in perfect and harmonious agreement with their consistent usage everywhere else in Scripture. Those who interpret it otherwise probably do so in an attempt to justify the Pre-mil theory, and the myriads of goats that their paradigm produces during their millennium.

Also, the interpretation of these Greek words in this passage, in the AV, is in clear and absolute agreement with their consistent usage throughout the rest of Scripture. Those therefore who interpret it otherwise probably do so to explain away the undoubted finality of the second coming or to support the inconsistent Pre-mil theory. The word chronos in this reading, which is rendered “time” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of “time” or “times” in Scripture.

The next verse, verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

The End!!!

The unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump - the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” NOT for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.”

I agree the 7th Trumpet marks the end of the current order. The Second Coming is completed by the act of the 7th Trumpet.

The 7th Trumpet is an 8 day event in which the Covenant is confirmed.

You never showed that it is still future and is interrupted by Satan's 42 months.

Your claim we are post Armageddon denies your whole post claiming the Second Coming was climactic as you place it as fulfilled and in the past.

Freedm · Feb 22, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Joel 2:10-11: “The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?”

Isaiah 13:9-11: “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars (kowkab) of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.”

All that talk about stars falling from the sky, sun dark, moon red, etc. is symbolic. This is not talking about heaven and earth literally being destroyed. It just symbolizes bad times.

sovereigngrace · Feb 22, 2021

Timtofly said:
The 7th Trumpet is an 8 day event in which the Covenant is confirmed.

Where in the Bible does it teach the 7th Trumpet is an 8 day event in which the Covenant is confirmed?

Timtofly · Feb 22, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Where in the Bible does it teach the 7th Trumpet is an 8 day event in which the Covenant is confirmed?

Daniel and Revelation

Is that not where most scholars take their eschatology ideology from?

If they had only asked Jesus during the Olivet Discourse when and with whom will the week happen that Daniel says the Covenant will be confirmed. Instead they only asked about the destruction of the Temple, when is the end, and when is the Second Coming.

Understanding "the beginning" and "the end"

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