Paul did not teach Perpetual Belief Alone-ism for salvation.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 20, 2021

Clare73 said:
For Paul, there are only two considerations:

1) faith + works, and
2) faith apart (Gr. choris) from works (Ro 4:6), which is "faith alone."

Ac 13:38 (Paul) - Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

Ro 1:17 - For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: 'The righteous will live by faith' " (Hab 2:4)

Eph 2:9 - you have been saved, through faith. . .not by works, so that no one can boast.

Ro 3:21-22 - But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known. . .This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ.

Ro 3:28 - We maintain that a man is justified (declared righteous) by faith apart from observing the law.

Ro 4:5 - However, to the man who does not work, but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Ro 6:14 - you are not under law, but under grace.

Gal 2:16 - know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.

Gal 3:10 - All you rely on observing the law are under a curse.

Gal 3:11-12 - Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because 'The righteous will live by faith,' and the law is not based on faith. On the contrary, the man who does these things will live by them." (Lev 18:5)

The only time the words “faith alone” appears in the Bible it is used to prove that we are justified by works and not by faith alone. For it is written:

“You see that a person is
justified by works and not by faith alone.”
(James 2:24).

So then what was Paul talking about in Ephesians 2:8-9?

He was talking about being saved by God's grace which is the 1st aspect of salvation without the deeds of the Law. This does not exclude Sanctification that follows after being saved by God's grace. To see if Sanctification plays a part in your salvation, too.... just read 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Galatians 6:8-9, and Romans 8:13. Folks are confusing two different aspects of salvation.

Albion · Feb 20, 2021

Irminhart said:
It doesn't matter what anyone's denomination is. What amazes me, is how it's a Orthodox vs Catholic vs Protestant. Read your Bible, read of the saint's and the early church father's and it will be made clear the Sola's are not Christian doctrines or beliefs held anytime prior to the reformation.

That's just not true. Search the Church Fathers and the Creeds, for example, looking for an affirmation of "Sacred Tradition."

But Scripture (and not Tradition) is right there in the Nicene Creed as a proof of a doctrinal point being asserted. Also, the Fathers did indeed cite Scripture as their proof of what they were teaching. However, I don't recall any example of one of the really early Fathers saying "Sacred Tradition, being another source of teaching given by the Almighty, has revealed to us the following truth."

Clare73 · Feb 20, 2021

Jacob75 said:
The deceptions at hand are incredible.

Feel free to Biblically demonstrate your assertions.

Irminhart · Feb 20, 2021

Clare73 said:
The God-breathed (2Tim 3:16) Holy Scriptures are the authority for God's truth, and those NT Scriptures couldn't be more plain regarding the place of faith and performance in justification/salvation.

You have no idea what you're talking about. This is why I can't stand protestants. Like I said, I am no longer having this discussion. Please stop mentioning me.

Clare73 · Feb 20, 2021

Albion said:
No. The principle called "Faith Alone" holds that it is only Faith, not works, that enables us to be saved.

It does NOT mean "faith apart from works."

Clare73 said:
Ro 4:6 - "God reckons righteousness apart (Gr: choris) from works." (Ro 4:6)

Albion said:
Unfortunately, this verse only serves to confirm what I explained, not the opposite.

Strawman.

Read it again. God does the reckoning on what basis? Oh, it's something other than our good dooby works, i.e. "apart from" them.

He does not judge us to be righteous because of our own striving, but on account of us trusting in Christ's sacrifice for sin to have paid the price for us. That's called Faith.

Albion · Feb 20, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
The only time the words “faith alone” appears in the Bible it is used to prove that we are justified by works and not by faith alone. For it is written:

“You see that a person is
justified by works and not by faith alone.”
(James 2:24).

What an unfortunate misreading of James' teaching.

Clare73 · Feb 20, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
The only time the words “faith alone” appears in the Bible it is used to prove that we are justified by works and not by faith alone. For it is written:

“You see that a person is
justified by works and not by faith alone.”
(James 2:24).
So then what was Paul talking about in Ephesians 2:8-9?

He was talking about being saved by God's grace which is the 1st aspect of salvation without the deeds of the Law. This does not exclude Sanctification that follows after being saved by God's grace. To see if Sanctification plays a part in your salvation, too.... just read 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Galatians 6:8-9, and Romans 8:13. Folks are confusing two different aspects of salvation.

We are in agreement.
Justification and sanctification are two NT forms of righteousness.

Justification is apart from works, sanctification is through the works of obedience.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 20, 2021

Albion said:
What an unfortunate misreading of James' teaching.

Care to explain it?
Is not faith dead without works? (James 2:17).
Can a dead faith save anyone?
For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).
You say fath alone saves, but we know that a faith without works is dead.
We know that even the demons believe.

Clare73 · Feb 20, 2021

Irminhart said:
You have no idea what you're talking about. This is why I can't stand protestants. Like I said, I am no longer having this discussion.

Feel free to Biblically demonstrate your assertion.

Albion · Feb 20, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Care to explain it?
Is not faith dead without works? (James 2:17).
Can a dead faith save anyone?
For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).
You say faith alone saves, but we know that a faith without works is dead.

Read in context, James' theme is rather clear. He is speaking of people who claim to be Christians, to have Faith, etc., but do not show any signs of having Faith. Almost everyone here says that Faith produces works. Okay, so what do we conclude when we find all sorts of people today claiming that they are Christians (for one reason or another) but they don't show any evidence of it? We think that it's unlikely that they really have had a conversion experience or else they would be living differently now.

That's what James was contending against--the easy, breezy, claim of people who say they have Faith but there's no evidence of it.

"Faith" (being alleged) that does not produce any works is dead, says James. It is phony. It is inoperable. It is a different kind of Faith. It isn't the Faith that our religion speaks of.

James is NOT saying that both Faith and your good deeds are earning merit in God's eyes and if you reach some level or other, you can be saved. NO! The Scripture's message is that CHRIST did the perfect act and paid for OUR sins because we are incapable of earning any merit in God's eyes by doing charitable deeds, etc. For us, and for James, it's all about Faith in Christ, but a real Faith, not just a claim of Faith.

Irminhart · Feb 20, 2021

Clare73 said:
Feel free to Biblically demonstrate your assertion.

So, do I need to contact an admin for harassment?

Irminhart · Feb 20, 2021

I clearly said I'm no longer participating in this discussion "multiple times." Your constant quoting of scripture of which you do not understand, and can not be understood outside of the church will not change my mind on ceasing to have this conversation.

Grace ambassador · Feb 20, 2021

Clare73 said:
For Paul, there are only two considerations:

1) faith + works, and
2) faith apart (Gr. choris) from works (Ro 4:6), which is "faith alone."

Ac 13:38 (Paul) - Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

Ro 1:17 - For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: 'The righteous will live by faith' " (Hab 2:4)

Ro 3:21-22 - But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known. . .This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ.

Ro 3:28 - We maintain that a man is justified (declared righteous) by faith apart from observing the law.

Ro 4:5 - However, to the man who does not work, but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Ro 6:14 - you are not under law, but under grace.

Gal 2:16 - know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.

Gal 3:10 - All you rely on observing the law are under a curse.

Gal 3:11-12 - Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because 'The righteous will live by faith,' and the law is not based on faith. On the contrary, the man who does these things will live by them." (Lev 18:5)

Eph 2:9 - you have been saved, through faith. . .not by works, so that no one can boast.

Albion said:
"It" isn't all God doing good works. We are instructed, as disciples of Christ, to do good ourselves. But that isn't the issue here. The issue concerned what, on our part, qualifies us for salvation.

I don't see any reason to reach that conclusion. Christ preached the Sermon on the Mount, specifying particular acts that his listeners should engage in. Would they have done them on their own? I doubt it. Would WE know exactly what acts are God-pleasing...in the absence of any guidance? I don't think so. The reason we, as Christians, know to take care of the poor, to be humble, to tell the truth, and so on, is because we are following the guidance we've been given.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 20, 2021

Albion said:
Read in context, James' theme is rather clear. He is speaking of people who claim to be Christians, to have Faith, etc., but do not show any signs of having Faith. Almost everyone here says that Faith produces works. Okay, so what do we conclude when we find all sorts of people today claiming that they are Christians (for one reason or another) but they don't show any evidence of it? We think that it's unlikely that they really have had a conversion experience or else they would be living differently now.

That's what James was contending against--the easy, breezy, claim of people who say they have Faith but there's no evidence of it.

"Faith" (being alleged) that does not produce any works is dead, says James. It is phony. It is inoperable. It is a different kind of Faith. It isn't the Faith that our religion speaks of.

James is NOT saying that both Faith and your good deeds are earning merit in God's eyes and if you reach some level or other, you can be saved. NO! The Scripture's message is that CHRIST did the perfect act and paid for OUR sins because we are incapable of earning any merit in God's eyes by doing charitable deeds, etc. For us, and for James, it's all about Faith in Christ, but a real Faith, not just a claim of Faith.

Not so, my friend. James 2:24 says,

“Ye see then how that by
works a man is justified,
and not by faith only.”
(James 2:24).

Okay. You believed that you are justified by faith, right? No doubt being justified by faith is dealing with salvation, right? But here is the thing. James writes that by works a man is justified and not by faith only (or alone). One word here. Justified. Justified is used for both faith and works in the same sentence in James 2:24. This means that works justify us because they are a part of the faith. I don't know why you keep dissecting the “work of faith” out of the “faith.” If we are saved by God's grace though faith, then this would not only include a belief in accepting Jesus as our Savior and His mercy, but it was also include “continuing in the faith” by putting forth “works of faith” to continue to access the grace of God. Can I prove that with the Bible? Yes, I can. It's 1 John 1:7. It's a beautiful verse. It says,

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light,
we have fellowship one with another,
and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son
cleanseth us from all sin.”
(1 John 1:7).

What is walking in the light mean?

By the use of indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11:

Walking in the light = Loving your brother.

So this means that if we love our brother, the blood fo Jesus cleanses us from all sin. So not only do we have to call upon the name of the Lord and seek God's grace through Jesus Christ by faith to be saved, but we must also continue in the faith with the work of faith, as well.

Furthermore, if you were to skip back to James chapter 1, you would read these things, as well.

“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.” (James 1:21-22).

Albion · Feb 20, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Not so, my friend. James 2:24 says,

“Ye see then how that by
works a man is justified,
and not by faith only.”
(James 2:24).

I've already explained that. If you don't understand where James is coming from and what he is contending against, you will continue to make that mistake. BUT if anyone takes in the whole of his message, it should become clearer.

Okay. You believed that you are justified by faith, right? No doubt being justified by faith is dealing with salvation, right? But here is the thing. James writes that by works a man is justified and not by faith only (or alone). One word here. Justified. Justified is used for both faith and works in the same sentence in James 2:24. This means that works justify us because they are a part of the faith.

No, it doesn't. All that it means is that both are being discussed.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 20, 2021

Albion said:
I've already explained that. If you don't understand where James is coming from and what he is contending against, you will continue to make that mistake. BUT if anyone takes in the whole of his message, it should become clearer.

No, it doesn't. All that it means is that both are being discussed.

So the word “justify” in James 2:24 is conveniently not talking about salvation when it talks about faith? Is there a faith that justifies that does not deal with salvation? This is very confusing. Does the Bible talk about a faith that justifies that does not save?

Also, your not really explaining James 1:12, and James 1:21-22 in how these verses work with your belief, either. They sound like holy actions that are tied to salvation. I get no indication in James 1:12, and James 1:21-22 that if you believed correctly these things will just automatically happen.

zoidar · Feb 20, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Lets be clear about something, brother. Nobody can be saved without first being saved by God's grace or without faith or belief in Jesus Christ as their Savior. Nobody can put the cart before the horse. That would be “Works ALONE Salvationism” if one thought they had to do something in order to be saved. Such groups like the “church of Christ” believe they need to be water baptized in order to be initially saved are promoting Works Salvationism mingled in with trying to be saved by God's grace. It takes away from the glory of God's mercy and what He did at the cross. I also believe we are not only initially saved by God's grace without the deeds of the Law, but I also believe that God's grace is foundational to our salvation. What does this mean? This means that if a believer sins, they do not go out and do a good work to offset (or absolve) their sin, they go to God's grace by confessing their sins to Jesus Christ in order to maintain their forgiveness with the Lord (See: 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1).

Anyways, I see Zacchaeus' actions as a reflection or natural outpouring of his faith. This is why faith without works is dead (James 2:17). For Hebrews 11 talks about how faith led to the great men of God to bring forth actions or works of faith. Paul talks about the work of faith in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. This is a part of our faith. So when folks try to surgically cut out the “works of faith” from faith, they are actually destroying the faith by doing so. James says that works makes one's faith perfect. For it is written: “Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” (James 2:22). One's work of faith is a part of the faith. What many fail to understand is that the works Paul talks about are the Works of the 613 Laws of Moses (as a whole or package deal). He is referring to things like circumcision; For there were certain Jews who trying to deceive Christians into thinking they had to be initially saved by first being circumcised (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12). For if a person thought they had to be first circumcised to be saved, they would be making the Law ALONE or Works ALONE the basis of their salvation instead of having faith in Jesus Christ and His mercy.

In any event, the confusion arises here because folks do not understand that there are two aspects of salvation. There is our being first saved by God's grace initially and foundationally (without works), and then there is the Sanctification Process that follows afterwards (that involves an outpouring of that faith with the work of faith and God working through the believer to do good works and to live holy - See: Philippians 2:13, and John 15:5). Why is sanctification of the Spirit a part of salvation? Well, the Bible tells me so in several places. Three big ones are 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Galatians 6:8-9, and Romans 8:13. Lets take a look at them.

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

In other words, the gospel calls us. Imagine an old phone ringing with the words “gospel” written on the phone and you pick up the phone to listen, and a voice on the other lines tells you this...

“God has chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth.”

Many do not like this message (Which is the gospel call), so they most likely will throw their phone and or smash it with a sledge hammer.

Galatians 6:8-9 says,

“For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

Very simple verse here that gets twisted or ignored by many. It says that the person who sows to his flesh (sin) shall reap corruption, but the person who sows to the Spirit shall reap everlasting life. Everlasting life is salvation. It says in verse 9 what this sowing to the Spirit looks like. It says let us not be tired in “well doing.” This means we are doing good (i.e. good works) as a part of sowing to the Spirit and this is a part of reaping everlasting life. Very simple to understand here. A person who does not like this truth will have to do backflip twists to undo what it says. I just read it and believe it.

Romans 8:13 says,

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

Again, instead of sowing to the Spirit we see that we put to death (mortify) the sinful deeds of the body by the Holy Spirit so that we shall live (i.e. live eternally). But if we live after the flesh (sin) we shall die (die for all eternity). This is the correct interpretation because Romans 8:1 says, “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

I'm not to argue with you on the importance of obedience.

I took away most of my reply, since we have talked about it before ...

I will say though, I had such fire in my heart ten years ago, where did that go?

How do I get that back?

Grace ambassador · Feb 20, 2021

Clare73 said:
For Paul, there are only two considerations:

1) faith + works, and
2) faith apart (Gr. choris) from works (Ro 4:6), which is "faith alone."

Ac 13:38 (Paul) - Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

Ro 1:17 - For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: 'The righteous will live by faith' " (Hab 2:4)

Ro 3:21-22 - But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known. . .This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ.

Ro 3:28 - We maintain that a man is justified (declared righteous) by faith apart from observing the law.

Ro 4:5 - However, to the man who does not work, but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Ro 6:14 - you are not under law, but under grace.

Gal 2:16 - know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.

Gal 3:10 - All you rely on observing the law are under a curse.

Gal 3:11-12 - Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because 'The righteous will live by faith,' and the law is not based on faith. On the contrary, the man who does these things will live by them." (Lev 18:5)

Eph 2:9 - you have been saved, through faith. . .not by works, so that no one can boast.

Excellent work on "NOT by works!" FOR The Body Of CHRIST! See you
{and ALL Precious BLOOD-Bought "members"} In God's Great GloryLand! ♫ ↑

IF I may Further Clarify What God Is Doing “In HIS Amazing GRACE!”
To Clear Up/Prevent any Pending “Confusion Of Contradictions," or ones that
will surely arise in future discussion?:

Grace And Peace, Precious friend(s). Please never mix {wrongly combine!}
(Rom 11:6 KJB!), but Always Rightly Divide, God’s Word Of Truth!:

For Diligent students of The WORD, there are TWO Considerations:

1) God's earthly Context Of "Prophecy/LAW” Program, ISRAEL Prominent!

Peter [+11], TWELVE "preached!" CHRIST’s “teaching on earth”:

gospel of the kingdom!:

Salvation = "he that believeth {faith] AND is baptized {+work} Shall Be SAVED!"
(Mrk 16:16 cp Luk 7:29-30; Acs 2:38; Jam 2:17-18, 26 KJB!)

Notice: Jam 1:1 IS TO: The TWELVE Tribes Of ISRAEL!

The Plain And Clear Passages Of God’s Word Do NOT have to be have
to be Taken Out Of God’s Context, read in somewhere else, causing Confusing
re-interpretations, such as: {God Really Meant To Say} “he that believeth is saved
and Should Then Be {water} baptized” = Plain And Clear foolishness, eh?

Water baptism {works}:
was “FOR the remission of sins” (Mrk 1:4; Luk 2:3; Acs 2:38 KJB!)

{Further Rightly Divided “study” Reveals That “water baptism cleansing,
along With Two Other Requirements was FOR ISRAEL to be inducted into
God’s PRIESThood!” but we will NOT “study” that here...}
+
Further Confirmation FOR ISRAEL, Under "faith PLUS works"
{Many years later...}:

And when they heard it, they glorified The LORD, and said unto him, Thou seest,
brother, how many thousands of JEWS there are which BELIEVE; AND they are
ALL zealous of the law {WORKS} (Acs 21:20 cp "Obeying CHRIST observing AND
doing ALL things HE Commanded!" Mat 28:19-20 AND 23:1-3 et al KJB!)

Rightly Divided (2 Tim 2:15 KJB!) From “Things That DIFFER!”:

2) God's Heavenly Context Of MYSTERY / GRACE Program, Jew And
Gentile Equal!!

Paul “preached CHRIST’s Revelation from Heaven!”

Gospel Of GRACE!:

"Grace Through {all heart} faith" {no "works" Required} In The Death,
burial, And Resurrection Of The LORD JESUS CHRIST, FOR Eternal Life!
----------------------------------
ONE Baptism (NOT water works, But} God’s Operation (Col 2:12 KJB!),

{NOT by works of righteousness which we have done}, But:
BY The Holy Spirit’s “Washing of Regeneration” (Tit 3:5 KJB!),

For Identification With/Induction/Immersion Into The Body Of CHRIST!
(Eph 4:5; 1 Cor 12:13; Gal 3:27; Rom 6:3-6; Col 2:12 KJB!),

And Many More Clear Passages, See Clare73’s quote above, or:
Clare73’s Excellent post #9 this thread...
-----------------------------------
Now, what about “our good works,” Under God's PURE GRACE?
So glad you asked! What Saith The Scripture?

“For we are HIS Workmanship, created in CHRIST JESUS Unto good
works, which God hath before Ordained that we should walk in them.”
(Eph 2:10 KJB!)

Well, Precious friends, are ALL “members Of CHRIST” going to Do What they
SHOULD Do? Seems highly Unlikely, Considering our Judgment, Correct?:

"Good works" Are Required For "Rewards" in Heaven! Amen?
{the "bad works" Lose reward,} But the "GRACE Through faith
believer" IS SAVED! (1 Cor 3:8-15 cp 5:5 KJB!)
----------------------
Ok, Just ONE more Confirmation:

[ God, Who Raises the dead! {v. 9} ], "Who Delivered us from so Great a
death, And Doth Deliver: in Whom we trust that HE Will Yet Deliver us!"
Expounded:

{PAST Tense}: { Justification!!! = God Establishes "Relationship!" }
"Who Delivered us from so great a death, {From The PENALTY of sin!}

{ PRESENT Tense }: { Sanctification!! = WE "work out" fellowship on earth! }
And Doth Deliver: {From The POWER of sin!!}

{FUTURE Tense}: { Glorification! = Eternal "fellowship," IN HEAVEN!!! }
in Whom we trust that HE Will Yet Deliver us!" {From The PRESENCE of sin!!!}
(2 Cor 1:10 KJB!) BIG Difference, Correct?

Please, ALL Precious friends, Be Very RICHLY Blessed And Encouraged In:
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And, In HIS WORD Of Truth, Rightly Divided!
Amen?
-----------------------
Conclusion:

We are NOT “The Judge” {God!}, who determines “who is SHOWING or
NOT showing their faith” = “Examine your OWN self!” (2 Co 13:5 KJB!),
Correct?

The Redeeming Work Of CHRIST On The Cross IS “ALL-Sufficient,”
Thus, True “GRACE Through faith” believers Are “BLOOD Bought!”
Correct?
+
Today’s PURE GRACE Message = “The preaching Of JESUS CHRIST,
According To THE REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY!”
(Rom 16:25 KJB!), Correct?
-------------------------
Blessed Be The Name of The LORD, And HIS Perfect, Pure, And
"Exalted Above All His Name," WORD For Ever And Ever!! Amen?

“To The Praise Of The Glory Of HIS {Amazing} GRACE!”

klutedavid · Feb 20, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
No. That's totally not true. Lets read it.

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

It says repeatedly that there were certain men (Jews) who were saying to believers that they must be circumcised AND to keep the Law of Moses. It does not say you must keep the Law of Moses, AND to keep the Law of Moses. They were not stuttering.

I disagree. To be circumcised is the initiation into the law, the outward marker. That's because circumcision is in the law and you cannot say that you obey the law. Without being circumcised.

John 7:23
If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken.

The Jerusalem council was all about whether Gentiles had to obey the law.

You are dead wrong in that idea of yours, 'works salvation'.

Why are you wrong, here is what the text states.

Acts 15:1
Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren.

The 'the brethren' are Gentile Christians.

So your concept of 'works salvation' is incorrect. You should have said; faith plus the works of the law.

klutedavid · Feb 20, 2021

Irminhart said:
Salvation can not be, and is not by faith alone. Forgive me for being too blunt, but this is the problem with Protestantism. There is no basis for their fundamental beliefs. It's strange how people quote verses and church father's, then try to interpret scripture outside of the church. Where do you think scripture came from? The Church! So many versus refute the notion of Sola-Scriptura & Sola-Fide. All my life Protestantism has felt so off to me. What justifies your belief? That is the question people need to ask themselves. Sorry, I'm not trying to go on an anti-protestant rant. But it pains me to see people how people don't understand the fallacy of the Sola's.

Salvation belongs to Jesus Christ alone. You must first be saved by Jesus Christ, before you can embark on a life of good works. No one can earn their salvation and no one can contribute to their own salvation.

In the end when all is said and done, salvation is ultimately a gift from God.

Paul did not teach Perpetual Belief Alone-ism for salvation.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Facilitator

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

Chris Endrizzi

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

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