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But to what degree do we measure our works in obedience? When it comes to passing a test, I think of A+ to F-. So when it comes to works in obedience are the test of true salvation, what's a passing grade for that test?

Matthew 25:21 says, “His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.”
 
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Ceallaigh

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I don't see that as the point at all. Jesus is merely showing that without Him, we cannot keep His commands. Jesus says in another point in John 15:5 that without me, you can do nothing.

Anyways, if you were to read the conclusion of the chapter in Matthew 19, it was not a Believe in me because you cannot obey me type message. It was the exact opposite of that. For the disciples had forsaken all to follow Jesus. For the rich man was not willing to forsake all that He had to follow Jesus, but the disciples were able to do so.

“When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.” (Matthew 19:25-29).

Granted, it did not appear that this was a requirement for all, though. For we learn that Zacchaeus was only willing to give up half of his goods to the poor and yet Jesus said salvation had came to his house.

In Luke 7 Jesus told a woman "who was a sinner", "Your sins are forgiven." "Your faith has saved you" and all she did was anoint his feet.

48 "And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?

50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace
." Luke 7:48-50

How does "faith alone is not enough" refute that passage?

He didn't even say "go and sin no more". Just "go in peace".
 
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zoidar

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Granted, it did not appear that this was a requirement for all, though. For we learn that Zacchaeus was only willing to give up half of his goods to the poor and yet Jesus said salvation had came to his house.

I have always seen Zacchaeus generosity as a consequence of him being saved, not an act by which he is saved.
 
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Danthemailman

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Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-26)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified based on Christ's finished work of redemption (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*
 
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Ceallaigh

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The thing is, I don't see how we can go through life without works. It seems as though it would be difficult if not impossible to avoid doing them. Just simply praying for someone is a good work. Praying for someone you don't like is an even greater work. A few days ago someone's car was stuck in the snow. So I gave them a push. Why did I feel compelled to help? I don't think it was me myself who felt compelled, but rather God in me that felt compelled to help.
 
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Mark Quayle

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But the verses speak against faith alone, though. Maybe if you can explain a few of them. Note: Besides #16, and #18, I believe the rest on my list are pretty iron clad in showing that we need to live holy as a part of being in God's kingdom (after we are saved by God's grace through faith in Christ). So please choose to explain #1-15 and #17.
No, man. None of them teach salvation by works. They teach necessity of works, yes, but not not as a cause of salvation. If a person is saved, works will necessarily RESULT --not CAUSE. if someone assumes they are saved, let's say because someone taught them that they are saved because they invited Jesus into their heart, but because they were also taught OSAS, and they had an emotional experience, yet they don't continue in repentance and pursuit of Christ by the Spirit of God, they have no reason to believe they are saved. This deals with perseverance of the saints. The regenerated believer will continue in the faith.

As with Salvation, so Sanctification, growth, works. The motivator is the Spirit of God within --not the will of man. Yet the will of man is totally engrossed in the activity, because we are one with Christ, partakers in every way. We can't help but repent, seek his face, desire him, and to be pure of heart. This is not natural to us as humans, but as regenerate humans. We were never designed to be entities in and of ourselves.
 
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Albion

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Ro 4:6 - "God reckons righteousness apart (Gr: choris) from works." (Ro 4:6)
Unfortunately, this verse only serves to confirm what I explained, not the opposite.

Read it again. God does the reckoning on what basis? Oh, it's something other than our good dooby works, i.e. "apart from" them.

He does not judge us to be righteous because of our own striving, but on account of us trusting in Christ's sacrifice for sin to have paid the price for us. That's called Faith.
 
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I have always seen Zacchaeus generosity as a consequence of him being saved, not an act by which he is saved.

Lets be clear about something, brother. Nobody can be saved without first being saved by God's grace or without faith or belief in Jesus Christ as their Savior. Nobody can put the cart before the horse. That would be “Works ALONE Salvationism” if one thought they had to do something in order to be saved. Such groups like the “church of Christ” believe they need to be water baptized in order to be initially saved are promoting Works Salvationism mingled in with trying to be saved by God's grace. It takes away from the glory of God's mercy and what He did at the cross. I also believe we are not only initially saved by God's grace without the deeds of the Law, but I also believe that God's grace is foundational to our salvation. What does this mean? This means that if a believer sins, they do not go out and do a good work to offset (or absolve) their sin, they go to God's grace by confessing their sins to Jesus Christ in order to maintain their forgiveness with the Lord (See: 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1).

Anyways, I see Zacchaeus' actions as a reflection or natural outpouring of his faith. This is why faith without works is dead (James 2:17). For Hebrews 11 talks about how faith led to the great men of God to bring forth actions or works of faith. Paul talks about the work of faith in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. This is a part of our faith. So when folks try to surgically cut out the “works of faith” from faith, they are actually destroying the faith by doing so. James says that works makes one's faith perfect. For it is written: “Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” (James 2:22). One's work of faith is a part of the faith. What many fail to understand is that the works Paul talks about are the Works of the 613 Laws of Moses (as a whole or package deal). He is referring to things like circumcision; For there were certain Jews who trying to deceive Christians into thinking they had to be initially saved by first being circumcised (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12). For if a person thought they had to be first circumcised to be saved, they would be making the Law ALONE or Works ALONE the basis of their salvation instead of having faith in Jesus Christ and His mercy.

In any event, the confusion arises here because folks do not understand that there are two aspects of salvation. There is our being first saved by God's grace initially and foundationally (without works), and then there is the Sanctification Process that follows afterwards (that involves an outpouring of that faith with the work of faith and God working through the believer to do good works and to live holy - See: Philippians 2:13, and John 15:5). Why is sanctification of the Spirit a part of salvation? Well, the Bible tells me so in several places. Three big ones are 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Galatians 6:8-9, and Romans 8:13. Lets take a look at them.

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).​

In other words, the gospel calls us. Imagine an old phone ringing with the words “gospel” written on the phone and you pick up the phone to listen, and a voice on the other lines tells you this...

“God has chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth.”​

Many do not like this message (Which is the gospel call), so they most likely will throw their phone and or smash it with a sledge hammer.

Galatians 6:8-9 says,

“For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).​

Very simple verse here that gets twisted or ignored by many. It says that the person who sows to his flesh (sin) shall reap corruption, but the person who sows to the Spirit shall reap everlasting life. Everlasting life is salvation. It says in verse 9 what this sowing to the Spirit looks like. It says let us not be tired in “well doing.” This means we are doing good (i.e. good works) as a part of sowing to the Spirit and this is a part of reaping everlasting life. Very simple to understand here. A person who does not like this truth will have to do backflip twists to undo what it says. I just read it and believe it.

Romans 8:13 says,

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).​

Again, instead of sowing to the Spirit we see that we put to death (mortify) the sinful deeds of the body by the Holy Spirit so that we shall live (i.e. live eternally). But if we live after the flesh (sin) we shall die (die for all eternity). This is the correct interpretation because Romans 8:1 says, “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”
 
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Freth

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Side Note:

Yes, Paul taught that we must believe in Jesus and His grace, and in the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, but this was not Belief Alone-ism with the exclusion of living holy afterwards.

When I speak of how we must obey God's laws: I am referring primarily to how we must obey those commands in the New Testament, and not the Old Testament. Things like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, the Passover, etc. are ceremonial laws that are no longer binding upon the life of the believer today under the New Covenant. We should focus on obeying those commands that come from Jesus and His followers.

This first section is in reply to all; not addressed to any person, but a general statement.

Faith leads to works by its very nature. You want to do good works, because your faith is not dead. If you have faith, good works is a natural result.

If your faith isn't correct, you won't do good works. It should permeate your life. As Romans 6 says, we are dead in Christ (our old life), reborn in Christ (our new life). Thus, if we are not doing good works in our own lives, it's because our faith is not what it should be and we need to re-evaluate what we believe and why we believe it.

There should be no argument over whether faith requires works to be alive.

James 2 bends over backwards to point out that faith without works is dead. No one can read it and come to any other conclusion.

Jesus, in Revelation, speaks of works as well, but differentiates between good and bad works.

To the church of Pergamos:

Revelation 2:13 I know thy works [bad], and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.



To the church of Thyatira:

Revelation 2:19 I know thy works [good], and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.



To the world (churches and all):​

Revelation 22:10-12 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.​

These verses indicate a clear closing of probation in the end time. If you are unjust, you might as well be unjust still, probation has closed. If you are holy, be holy still. God is separating the wheat from the tares. Notice the last sentence... reward according to his work shall be—good or bad; for we know that the wicked will perish at the second coming and the truly faithful will be saved.
Good works are manifested by faith, through the life of a changed individual. Bad works are works wrought through sin. Selfishness. Pride. Personal gain. Why do we get baptized if there is no life change? It comes down to your personal relationship with Jesus. If you are truly faithful, are seeking Him, good works will occur, not by effort, but because love is manifesting itself in your life. You genuinely care for your fellow man and want to do for others. Love is the focal point here. If you love God, love others, the natural result is good works, as long as sin doesn't abound.

This second section is a response to your original post. I agree, faith without works is dead. However, I wanted to address something you posted at the end, which I quoted.

Holiness. Commandment #4, to keep it holy. This indicates some effort on our part, to do God's will in our lives. Sabbath commandment aside (for the moment), God is asking us to be holy and righteous Christians. The word I like to use is devout.

Just what can we do to be holy, righteous people? Jesus is a vital component, along with the Holy Spirit, but we must make the effort ourselves, to align with God's will. The way we know we're holy is when we are in line with the character of God. Therefore, obedience is necessary. It's the only way to be in line with God's character.

If the New Testament law (love God, love others) is the only binding law, then why did Jesus point to the Ten Commandments in Revelation? Remember, this is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. This is Jesus coming to John with a clear, urgent, prophetic message for the churches and the people of the end time. Revelation is Jesus expressing in no uncertain terms His expectations for us.

And so you can't dismiss the following verses as irrelevant.

The true church (not a denomination, a remnant people) keeps the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, which is His testimony. Notice that commandment keepers are the target of the dragon. *rubs chin*​

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Jesus ties commandment-keeping with faith. He also references the commandments of God, not just the commandments of Jesus.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.​

The very last verses of Revelation. A clear reference to the Ten Commandments and the Sabbath; true worship vs false worship​

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​

Looking back from Revelation, to the very words of Jesus about His new commandments. Nowhere does Jesus say, "Oh those old commandments? Yeah, just forget those. This is the new!"

Matthew 22:34-40 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Just what are Jesus' commandments? He is our creator as per Colossians 1:16-20 et al, which is all-inclusive. The ones He gave to Adam and Eve. The ones He gave on Mt. Sinai (minus the obvious laws done away with at the cross). The ones He gave to the Pharisees that define ALL the law and the prophets around a central concept of love; the foundation of God's law. The first four of the Ten Commandments show us how to love God. The last six show us how to love others. Worship. Works.

Lastly, a warning from Jesus in Revelation about adding or taking away from the word of God.

Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
And so, in my mind, you can't be holy unless you obey God's commandments that still apply to us. The Old and New Testaments are the two witnesses of God. Jesus is clearly pointing to the Ten Commandments. Jesus' work expands on the law of God, pointing to it, hanging the law and the prophets off of a central concept called love; the character of God.

One can't understand the concept of love without the law and the prophets (i.e. all of those words about commandment-keeping and how to be a Christian throughout the Bible). You can't pick and choose like a choose-your-own-adventure book (and I loved those as a teenager).

Jesus is tempted by Satan to turn stones into bread, because He is hungry.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.​

In our hungriest (spiritually) times, it is the word of God that sustains us. We live by every word.

In closing, it makes no sense for Jesus to come to earth, expand on the law of God that He Himself gave at creation, gave on Mt. Sinai, gave throughout His ministry and then just do away with it at the cross. The work of Jesus was to show us the importance of God's law, not replace it with an abstract view of love. God doesn't change. The law is God's law. The sacrificial laws pointed to the the cross and the sanctuary in heaven where Jesus is mediating for us right now. The civil laws laid the ground work for our own laws today (capital punishment et al). The dietary laws help us to keep our temples (bodies) holy. In these things, we can clearly discern what Jesus intended for His people to obey and not obey. If you love God, you keep His commandments that are still binding, through the lens of love God, love others. The takeaway is that we need to realize Jesus came to expand (give understanding to), not retract from the word of God (or His law).



To all readers: You don't have to agree with anything I say. Pray for discernment. Read the Bible. Come to your own conclusions.
 
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In Luke 7 Jesus told a woman "who was a sinner", "Your sins are forgiven." "Your faith has saved you" and all she did was anoint his feet.

48 "And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?

50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace
." Luke 7:48-50

How does "faith alone is not enough" refute that passage?

He didn't even say "go and sin no more". Just "go in peace".

We have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word. Her sins being forgiven is in reference to her past sins. Why? Because in other points in Scripture we learn that Jesus tells two people to, “sin no more.” (John 5:14) (John 8:11). Why would Jesus be concerned in telling them to, “sin no more” if they are forgiven of their future sin? It makes no sense.
 
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This first section is in reply to all; not addressed to any person, but a general statement.

Faith leads to works by its very nature. You want to do good works, because your faith is not dead. If you have faith, good works is a natural result.

If your faith isn't correct, you won't do good works. It should permeate your life. As Romans 6 says, we are dead in Christ (our old life), reborn in Christ (our new life). Thus, if we are not doing good works in our own lives, it's because our faith is not what it should be and we need to re-evaluate what we believe and why we believe it.

There should be no argument over whether faith requires works to be alive.

James 2 bends over backwards to point out that faith without works is dead. No one can read it and come to any other conclusion.

Jesus, in Revelation, speaks of works as well, but differentiates between good and bad works.

To the church of Pergamos:

Revelation 2:13 I know thy works [bad], and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.



To the church of Thyatira:

Revelation 2:19 I know thy works [good], and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.



To the world (churches and all):​

Revelation 22:10-12 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.​

These verses indicate a clear closing of probation in the end time. If you are unjust, you might as well be unjust still, probation has closed. If you are holy, be holy still. God is separating the wheat from the tares. Notice the last sentence... reward according to his work shall be—good or bad; for we know that the wicked will perish at the second coming and the truly faithful will be saved.
Good works are manifested by faith, through the life of a changed individual. Bad works are works wrought through sin. Selfishness. Pride. Personal gain. Why do we get baptized if there is no life change? It comes down to your personal relationship with Jesus. If you are truly faithful, are seeking Him, good works will occur, not by effort, but because love is manifesting itself in your life. You genuinely care for your fellow man and want to do for others. Love is the focal point here. If you love God, love others, the natural result is good works, as long as sin doesn't abound.

This second section is a response to your original post. I agree, faith without works is dead. However, I wanted to address something you posted at the end, which I quoted.

Holiness. Commandment #4, to keep it holy. This indicates some effort on our part, to do God's will in our lives. Sabbath commandment aside (for the moment), God is asking us to be holy and righteous Christians. The word I like to use is devout.

Just what can we do to be holy, righteous people? Jesus is a vital component, along with the Holy Spirit, but we must make the effort ourselves, to align with God's will. The way we know we're holy is when we are in line with the character of God. Therefore, obedience is necessary. It's the only way to be in line with God's character.

If the New Testament law (love God, love others) is the only binding law, then why did Jesus point to the Ten Commandments in Revelation? Remember, this is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. This is Jesus coming to John with a clear, urgent, prophetic message for the churches and the people of the end time. Revelation is Jesus expressing in no uncertain terms His expectations for us.

And so you can't dismiss the following verses as irrelevant.

The true church (not a denomination, a remnant people) keeps the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, which is His testimony. Notice that commandment keepers are the target of the dragon. *rubs chin*​

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Jesus ties commandment-keeping with faith. He also references the commandments of God, not just the commandments of Jesus.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.​

The very last verses of Revelation. A clear reference to the Ten Commandments and the Sabbath; true worship vs false worship​

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​

Looking back from Revelation, to the very words of Jesus about His new commandments. Nowhere does Jesus say, "Oh those old commandments? Yeah, just forget those. This is the new!"

Matthew 22:34-40 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Just what are Jesus' commandments? He is our creator as per Colossians 1:16-20 et al, which is all-inclusive. The ones He gave to Adam and Eve. The ones He gave on Mt. Sinai (minus the obvious laws done away with at the cross). The ones He gave to the Pharisees that define ALL the law and the prophets around a central concept of love; the foundation of God's law. The first four of the Ten Commandments show us how to love God. The last six show us how to love others. Worship. Works.

Lastly, a warning from Jesus in Revelation about adding or taking away from the word of God.

Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
And so, in my mind, you can't be holy unless you obey God's commandments that still apply to us. The Old and New Testaments are the two witnesses of God. Jesus is clearly pointing to the Ten Commandments. Jesus' work expands on the law of God, pointing to it, hanging the law and the prophets off of a central concept called love; the character of God.

One can't understand the concept of love without the law and the prophets (i.e. all of those words about commandment-keeping and how to be a Christian throughout the Bible). You can't pick and choose like a choose-your-own-adventure book (and I loved those as a teenager).

Jesus is tempted by Satan to turn stones into bread, because He is hungry.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.​

In our hungriest (spiritually) times, it is the word of God that sustains us. We live by every word.

In closing, it makes no sense for Jesus to come to earth, expand on the law of God that He Himself gave at creation, gave on Mt. Sinai, gave throughout His ministry and then just do away with it at the cross. The work of Jesus was to show us the importance of God's law, not replace it with an abstract view of love. God doesn't change. The law is God's law. The sacrificial laws pointed to the the cross and the sanctuary in heaven where Jesus is mediating for us right now. The civil laws laid the ground work for our own laws today (capital punishment et al). The dietary laws help us to keep our temples (bodies) holy. In these things, we can clearly discern what Jesus intended for His people to obey and not obey. If you love God, you keep His commandments that are still binding, through the lens of love God, love others. The takeaway is that we need to realize Jesus came to expand (give understanding to), not retract from the word of God (or His law).



To all readers: You don't have to agree with anything I say. Pray for discernment. Read the Bible. Come to your own conclusions.

Here are a list of verses showing us the Old Law is no more:

"When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).

”Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.” (Romans 7:4).

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).

20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
(Colossians 2:20-23).

“By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).

"The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).

9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).

16 “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17).

”And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament…” (Hebrews 9:15).

27 “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28).

50 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; “ (Matthew 27:20-51).

8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).

7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).

“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 3:14).​

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:

"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).​

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).​

The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).​

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).​

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17).​

In conclusion:

You sort of have to look at the Old Covenant (Old Testament) as one contract, and the New Covenant (New Testament) as another contract. It's kind of like a contract when you buy a house. If you did not like certain things in the contract, you could ask them to make some changes in the contract. If they agreed to the changes, you would then go by the new contract, and the old contract for the house would be discarded. There may be some similar things between the old contract, and the new contract, but you stick with the new contract in your dealing with buying the house. Meaning: This is why we seek to follow the New Covenant (New Testament) primarily even though there are certain laws that have carried over from the Old Covenant (Old Testament). We are clearly not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or package deal. We follow the commands that come from Jesus and His followers.
 
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This first section is in reply to all; not addressed to any person, but a general statement.

Faith leads to works by its very nature. You want to do good works, because your faith is not dead. If you have faith, good works is a natural result.

If your faith isn't correct, you won't do good works. It should permeate your life. As Romans 6 says, we are dead in Christ (our old life), reborn in Christ (our new life). Thus, if we are not doing good works in our own lives, it's because our faith is not what it should be and we need to re-evaluate what we believe and why we believe it.

There should be no argument over whether faith requires works to be alive.

James 2 bends over backwards to point out that faith without works is dead. No one can read it and come to any other conclusion.

Jesus, in Revelation, speaks of works as well, but differentiates between good and bad works.

To the church of Pergamos:

Revelation 2:13 I know thy works [bad], and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.



To the church of Thyatira:

Revelation 2:19 I know thy works [good], and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.



To the world (churches and all):​

Revelation 22:10-12 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.​

These verses indicate a clear closing of probation in the end time. If you are unjust, you might as well be unjust still, probation has closed. If you are holy, be holy still. God is separating the wheat from the tares. Notice the last sentence... reward according to his work shall be—good or bad; for we know that the wicked will perish at the second coming and the truly faithful will be saved.
Good works are manifested by faith, through the life of a changed individual. Bad works are works wrought through sin. Selfishness. Pride. Personal gain. Why do we get baptized if there is no life change? It comes down to your personal relationship with Jesus. If you are truly faithful, are seeking Him, good works will occur, not by effort, but because love is manifesting itself in your life. You genuinely care for your fellow man and want to do for others. Love is the focal point here. If you love God, love others, the natural result is good works, as long as sin doesn't abound.

This second section is a response to your original post. I agree, faith without works is dead. However, I wanted to address something you posted at the end, which I quoted.

Holiness. Commandment #4, to keep it holy. This indicates some effort on our part, to do God's will in our lives. Sabbath commandment aside (for the moment), God is asking us to be holy and righteous Christians. The word I like to use is devout.

Just what can we do to be holy, righteous people? Jesus is a vital component, along with the Holy Spirit, but we must make the effort ourselves, to align with God's will. The way we know we're holy is when we are in line with the character of God. Therefore, obedience is necessary. It's the only way to be in line with God's character.

If the New Testament law (love God, love others) is the only binding law, then why did Jesus point to the Ten Commandments in Revelation? Remember, this is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. This is Jesus coming to John with a clear, urgent, prophetic message for the churches and the people of the end time. Revelation is Jesus expressing in no uncertain terms His expectations for us.

And so you can't dismiss the following verses as irrelevant.

The true church (not a denomination, a remnant people) keeps the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, which is His testimony. Notice that commandment keepers are the target of the dragon. *rubs chin*​

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Jesus ties commandment-keeping with faith. He also references the commandments of God, not just the commandments of Jesus.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.​

The very last verses of Revelation. A clear reference to the Ten Commandments and the Sabbath; true worship vs false worship​

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​

Looking back from Revelation, to the very words of Jesus about His new commandments. Nowhere does Jesus say, "Oh those old commandments? Yeah, just forget those. This is the new!"

Matthew 22:34-40 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Just what are Jesus' commandments? He is our creator as per Colossians 1:16-20 et al, which is all-inclusive. The ones He gave to Adam and Eve. The ones He gave on Mt. Sinai (minus the obvious laws done away with at the cross). The ones He gave to the Pharisees that define ALL the law and the prophets around a central concept of love; the foundation of God's law. The first four of the Ten Commandments show us how to love God. The last six show us how to love others. Worship. Works.

Lastly, a warning from Jesus in Revelation about adding or taking away from the word of God.

Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
And so, in my mind, you can't be holy unless you obey God's commandments that still apply to us. The Old and New Testaments are the two witnesses of God. Jesus is clearly pointing to the Ten Commandments. Jesus' work expands on the law of God, pointing to it, hanging the law and the prophets off of a central concept called love; the character of God.

One can't understand the concept of love without the law and the prophets (i.e. all of those words about commandment-keeping and how to be a Christian throughout the Bible). You can't pick and choose like a choose-your-own-adventure book (and I loved those as a teenager).

Jesus is tempted by Satan to turn stones into bread, because He is hungry.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.​

In our hungriest (spiritually) times, it is the word of God that sustains us. We live by every word.

In closing, it makes no sense for Jesus to come to earth, expand on the law of God that He Himself gave at creation, gave on Mt. Sinai, gave throughout His ministry and then just do away with it at the cross. The work of Jesus was to show us the importance of God's law, not replace it with an abstract view of love. God doesn't change. The law is God's law. The sacrificial laws pointed to the the cross and the sanctuary in heaven where Jesus is mediating for us right now. The civil laws laid the ground work for our own laws today (capital punishment et al). The dietary laws help us to keep our temples (bodies) holy. In these things, we can clearly discern what Jesus intended for His people to obey and not obey. If you love God, you keep His commandments that are still binding, through the lens of love God, love others. The takeaway is that we need to realize Jesus came to expand (give understanding to), not retract from the word of God (or His law).



To all readers: You don't have to agree with anything I say. Pray for discernment. Read the Bible. Come to your own conclusions.

In addition, I do not agree that the 4th commandment was carried over into the New Testament. I know. I did a study on the New Testament commands from Matthew to Revelation.
You have to understand that...

#1. There are no list of sins with the breaking of the Sabbath included.
(For when Paul and the apostle John list out certain sins like murder, adultery, theft, etc., we don't see any mention of the breaking of the Sabbath).

#2. There are no explicit or non-explict commands for the Saturday Sabbath in the New Testament.
(In other words, there are no commands for us to keep the Sabbath given to us in the New Testament; So if it was so important to keep, then why is it not mentioned?).​

Furthermore...

Colossians 2 says,

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;” (Colossians 2:14).​

We learn in the OT that the weekly Sabbath is inferred as being an ordinance in

Isaiah 58.


“Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God...” (Isaiah 58:2).​

If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight,...” (Isaiah 58:13).​

How was the weekly sabbath (Which is an ordinance) against us? Well, the OT talks about how a man was killed for collecting sticks on the weekly sabbath.

Colossians 2:16 says,

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:” (Colossians 2:16).
This verse is saying we are not to let others judge us in regards to whether or not we keep Sabbaths days. This means that the Sabbath is no longer binding because the Saturday Sabbath would be included in the list of the different kinds of Sabbaths (like the yearly Sabbath, etc.). Thus, the 4th commandment in Exodus 20 in the Old Covenant is no longer binding. We are under a New Covenant with New Commands. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

 
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No, man. None of them teach salvation by works. They teach necessity of works, yes, but not not as a cause of salvation. If a person is saved, works will necessarily RESULT --not CAUSE. if someone assumes they are saved, let's say because someone taught them that they are saved because they invited Jesus into their heart, but because they were also taught OSAS, and they had an emotional experience, yet they don't continue in repentance and pursuit of Christ by the Spirit of God, they have no reason to believe they are saved. This deals with perseverance of the saints. The regenerated believer will continue in the faith.

As with Salvation, so Sanctification, growth, works. The motivator is the Spirit of God within --not the will of man. Yet the will of man is totally engrossed in the activity, because we are one with Christ, partakers in every way. We can't help but repent, seek his face, desire him, and to be pure of heart. This is not natural to us as humans, but as regenerate humans. We were never designed to be entities in and of ourselves.

Please give me a detailed commentary on Galatians 6:8-9.
 
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Clare73

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Salvation can not be, and is not by faith alone. Forgive me for being too blunt, but this is the problem with Protestantism. There is no basis for their fundamental beliefs. It's strange how people quote verses and church father's, then try to interpret scripture outside of the church. Where do you think scripture came from? The Church! So many versus refute the notion of Sola-Scriptura & Sola-Fide. All my life Protestantism has felt so off to me. What justifies your belief? That is the question people need to ask themselves. Sorry, I'm not trying to go on an anti-protestant rant. But it pains me to see people how people don't understand the fallacy of the Sola's.
For Paul, there are only two considerations:

1) faith + works, and
2) faith apart (Gr. choris) from works (Ro 4:6), which is "faith alone."

Ac 13:38 (Paul) - Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.


Ro 1:17 - For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: 'The righteous will live by faith' " (Hab 2:4)

Eph 2:9
- you have been saved, through faith. . .not by works, so that no one can boast.

Ro 3:21-22 - But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known. . .This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ.

Ro 3:28 - We maintain that a man is justified (declared righteous) by faith apart from observing the law.

Ro 4:5 - However, to the man who does not work, but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Ro 6:14
- you are not under law, but under grace.

Gal 2:16 - know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.

Gal 3:10
- All you rely on observing the law are under a curse.

Gal 3:11-12 - Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because 'The righteous will live by faith,' and the law is not based on faith. On the contrary, the man who does these things will live by them." (Lev 18:5)
 
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The thing is, I don't see how we can go through life without works. It seems as though it would be difficult if not impossible to avoid doing them. Just simply praying for someone is a good work. Praying for someone you don't like is an even greater work. A few days ago someone's car was stuck in the snow. So I gave them a push. Why did I feel compelled to help? I don't think it was me myself who felt compelled, but rather God in me that felt compelled to help.

This is why it is not Belief Alone-ism. The “work of faith” (1 Thessalonians 1:3) (2 Thessalonians 1:11) that Paul talks about is tied to the faith. In Hebrews 11, we learn that the great men of God had faith that led to holy actions that reflected their faith. So can no more separate the “work of faith” from our faith than we can separate rain from being wet. So when Paul talks about how we are saved by God's grace through faith, this would in time to eventually include the “work of faith” after we have believed. We continue to access the grace of God by the faith. Example? 1 John 1:7. It says if we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. What is walking in the light mean? Just read 1 John 2:9-11, and by the use of indirect wording of that passage we learn that, “walking in the light” = “loving your brother.”

So faith manifests itselfs with the work of faith.
Faith is made perfect by the work of faith (See: James 2:22).
Why? Because they are connected and not separate.
For faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
 
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It doesn't matter what anyone's denomination is. What amazes me, is how it's a Orthodox vs Catholic vs Protestant. Read your Bible, read of the saint's and the early church father's and it will be made clear the Sola's are not Christian doctrines or beliefs held anytime prior to the reformation.
The God-breathed (2Tim 3:16) Holy Scriptures are the authority for God's truth, and those NT Scriptures couldn't be more plain regarding the place of faith and performance in justification/salvation, as demonstrated in post #109.
 
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The thing is, I don't see how we can go through life without works. It seems as though it would be difficult if not impossible to avoid doing them. Just simply praying for someone is a good work. Praying for someone you don't like is an even greater work. A few days ago someone's car was stuck in the snow. So I gave them a push. Why did I feel compelled to help? I don't think it was me myself who felt compelled, but rather God in me that felt compelled to help.

You said before that you believe you were saved while you were prodigal. So if a person also believes this by your saying this, then they can be influenced to live a prodigal life and think they are saved, too. This would be contrary to doing that which would be considered a good work. So your efforts in doing good works is nullfied by declaring this kind of belief. This is why I have a problem with Belief Alone-ism. What you do really does not matter. You are saved no matter what you do. Or it makes room for a little bit of sin. See, you did not have to help that guy, you could have just drove on by and be saved in Belief Alone-ism. You can step over a poor guy crying for money that you have and be saved in Belief Alone-ism. But this is not what we read in Matthew 25:31-46. Our actions have eternal consequences.
 
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This notion of a convenience oriented belief in Jesus being a free ticket to Heaven is the most pervasive corruption of Salvation today. It exists as one extreme of the Salvation Doctrine continuum which has at the opposite end Extreme Calvinism TULIP.

After intense investigation and much prayer, I now hold to prevenient self willed choice of Jesus unto spiritual rebirth by God, with Corporate Election afterwards within The Kingdom.
Total Depravity with sentient awareness of sin. Unmerited Election of the Church body after rebirth. Limited Atonement theory, which carries the stench of the Pit is a falsehood. Grace is resistable. Saints persevere only by means of complete submission in faith.
Many also felt that way about what Jesus taught while he was here on earth with us. . .this demonstrates nothing.
In terms of demonstration, let's start with "total depravity."

No one is righteous, not even one (Ro 3:9-19)
all are born condemned by the sin of Adam (Ro 5:18); i.e., "original sin,"
by nature (birth) objects of wrath (Eph 2:3),
all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Ro 3:23),
the whole world is a prisoner of sin (Gal 3:22),
God has bound all men over to (locked them up in) disobedience (Ro 11:32),
condemned already (by Adam's sin) if we do not come out of unbelief (Jn 3:18),
God's wrath remaining on us (because of our fallen nature) if we reject the Son (Jn 3:36),
justified freely (given right-standing; i.e., righteous) by his grace (Ro 3:24),
not justified by works (any and all good works), but by justification (righteous) being imputed (ascribed, assigned vicariously) to us (Ro 4:1-5).
 
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