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The point here in Matthew 7:22-23 is that Jesus NEVER knew these many people which means they were NEVER saved.

Yet, I already explained to you how Ezekiel 3:20 helps explain our Lord's words that say, “I never knew you.” Jesus can say he never knew them because there is no more righteous deeds on their record to remember them anymore on their account of turning back towards sin.

Now, is it remotely possible that these are believers who never knew Jesus? Sure, it is possible. But if this was the case, then Matthew 7:23 would not be an exhaustive truth on the matter, either. First, Matthew 13:41-42 teaches us that the Son of Man (Jesus) will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all those who do iniquity and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (the Lake of Fire). Nothing is mentioned here about how He never knew them in Matthew 13:41-42. It says that they were in HIS KINGDOM meaning they were once saved, and they later lost it on account of their justifying sin or iniquity. Also... we know by tons of Scripture verses that a believer can also fall away, too.

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3​

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)​

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back (James 5:19-20)​

In fact, Paul is against Eternal Security or a sin and still be saved type belief. For Paul says,

  1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).

  2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).

  3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).

  4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).

  5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).

  6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).

  7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).

  8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).

  9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).

  10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

You said:
Their attempts at external obedience apart from a relationship with Christ is not the will of the Father. (Matthew 7:21; John 6:40; John 17:3) Unbelievers will ALL be characterized as "workers of iniquity." These were NOT genuine believers and that is the heart of the issue. Also a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. (Matthew 7:15-20)

It could also be that they held to a belief that said that they could sin and still be saved. So they did wonderful works in his name, but they also worked iniquity (or sin). So their sin is what cast them out. For Jesus said depart from me ye that work iniquity (See: Matthew 7:23).

You said:
As we read on in Matthew 7:24-27, we find two different foundations with two different results. Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock and it stands. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand and it collapses.

But Matthew 7:26-27 makes it clear that we have to do what He says and if we don't we are like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. So doing what Jesus says is the focus and thrust of Matthew 7:23.

You said:
Those deceived by their own self-righteousness in Matthew 7:22-23 were "outwardly" doing things that also the righteous would do, yet they did not truly know Christ (had no personal relationship with Christ) which stemmed from not truly believing in Him.

It certainly is possible that a person can do righteous things in the Lord's name and not really know Jesus. A person does first have to be saved by God's grace before they can walk with the Lord. But neither can we do nothing for the Lord and say we are saved, either. Matthew 7:24-25 is focused on DOING what Jesus says. Yes, this must involve a relationship with Christ. But the point that Jesus wants to make is that we must do what He says and not in doing nothing.

You said:
The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone.

Oh, no it's not. It is in doing what He says. For the person who does not do what Jesus says is a fool according to Jesus in Matthew 7:26-27. The person who does what Jesus says is called wise (See Matthew 7:24-25).

You said:
The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness. Only those who truly believe in Christ unto salvation are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them.

It does not say that. It simply says that they do not do what Jesus says in Matthew 7:26-27. You are adding to the Scriptures. Granted, we cannot do works alone without God's grace to save us. But neither can we just have a belief alone in Jesus and expect to be saved, either. Matthew 7:24-27 refutes that idea.
 
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Danthemailman

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Yet, I already explained to you how Ezekiel 3:20 helps explain our Lord's words that say, “I never knew you.” Jesus can say he never knew them because there is no more righteous deeds on their record to remember them anymore on their account of turning back towards sin.

Now, is it remotely possible that these are believers who never knew Jesus? Sure, it is possible. But if this was the case, then Matthew 7:23 would not be an exhaustive truth on the matter, either. First, Matthew 13:41-42 teaches us that the Son of Man (Jesus) will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all those who do iniquity and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (the Lake of Fire). Nothing is mentioned here about how He never knew them in Matthew 13:41-42. It says that they were in HIS KINGDOM meaning they were once saved, and they later lost it on account of their justifying sin or iniquity. Also... we know by tons of Scripture verses that a believer can also fall away, too.

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3​

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)​

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back (James 5:19-20)​

In fact, Paul is against Eternal Security or a sin and still be saved type belief. For Paul says,

  1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).

  2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).

  3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).

  4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).

  5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).

  6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).

  7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).

  8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).

  9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).

  10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).
It could also be that they held to a belief that said that they could sin and still be saved. So they did wonderful works in his name, but they also worked iniquity (or sin). So their sin is what cast them out. For Jesus said depart from me ye that work iniquity (See: Matthew 7:23).

But Matthew 7:26-27 makes it clear that we have to do what He says and if we don't we are like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. So doing what Jesus says is the focus and thrust of Matthew 7:23.

It certainly is possible that a person can do righteous things in the Lord's name and not really know Jesus. A person does first have to be saved by God's grace before they can walk with the Lord. But neither can we do nothing for the Lord and say we are saved, either. Matthew 7:24-25 is focused on DOING what Jesus says. Yes, this must involve a relationship with Christ. But the point that Jesus wants to make is that we must do what He says and not in doing nothing.

Oh, no it's not. It is in doing what He says. For the person who does not do what Jesus says is a fool according to Jesus in Matthew 7:26-27. The person who does what Jesus says is called wise (See Matthew 7:24-25).

It does not say that. It simply says that they do not do what Jesus says in Matthew 7:26-27. You are adding to the Scriptures. Granted, we cannot do works alone without God's grace to save us. But neither can we just have a belief alone in Jesus and expect to be saved, either. Matthew 7:24-27 refutes that idea.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
 
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Soyeong

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10 "For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work". Titus 1:10-16

Looks to me that Paul was talking about false teachers. Judaizers who teach that it is necessary for Christians to adopt Jewish laws and customs, especially those found in the Law of Moses.

Christ taught how to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example and Paul's problem with the Judaizers was not that they were teaching Gentiles how to follow Christ, but that they were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified. The purpose that God required circumcision was never in order to earn our salvation, so the problem was with the commands of men that were being added on top of what God commanded. Those teaching Gentiles how follow Christ are not insubordinate, idle talkers, and deceivers who subvert households, teaching things which we ought not for the sake of dishonest gain. Paul warned them not to give heed to Jewish fables and the commandments of me, which are not the commandments of God. Paul criticized them for turning away from the truth, the the Mosaic Law is truth (Psalms 119:142). In John 3:36, believing in Christ is equated with obeying him, and there are many other verses that associate belief with obedience to God unbelief with disobedience to God. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not know God and refused to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken the Law of Moses, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so obedience to God's law is the way know Him, not the way to deny them, and again Paul described them as being disobedient, not as being obedience to the Law of Moses. In 2 Timothy 3:16-17, everything spoken by God is profitable for equipping us to do every good work, not the way to become disqualified for every good work. So you should be more careful not to mistaken was was only said against the commandments of God as being against the commandments of God.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Christ taught how to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example and Paul's problem with the Judaizers was not that they were teaching Gentiles how to follow Christ, but that they were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified. The purpose that God required circumcision was never in order to earn our salvation, so the problem was with the commands of men that were being added on top of what God commanded. Those teaching Gentiles how follow Christ are not insubordinate, idle talkers, and deceivers who subvert households, teaching things which we ought not for the sake of dishonest gain. Paul warned them not to give heed to Jewish fables and the commandments of me, which are not the commandments of God. Paul criticized them for turning away from the truth, the the Mosaic Law is truth (Psalms 119:142). In John 3:36, believing in Christ is equated with obeying him, and there are many other verses that associate belief with obedience to God unbelief with disobedience to God. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not know God and refused to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken the Law of Moses, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so obedience to God's law is the way know Him, not the way to deny them, and again Paul described them as being disobedient, not as being obedience to the Law of Moses. In 2 Timothy 3:16-17, everything spoken by God is profitable for equipping us to do every good work, not the way to become disqualified for every good work. So you should be more careful not to mistaken was was only said against the commandments of God as being against the commandments of God.

So you're saying we are under the same old covenant laws that existed before Jesus died and resurrected? And that if we are are not obedient to those 613 laws Jesus doesn't know us?
 
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Ceallaigh

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Yet, I already explained to you how Ezekiel 3:20 helps explain our Lord's words that say, “I never knew you.” Jesus can say he never knew them because there is no more righteous deeds on their record to remember them anymore on their account of turning back towards sin.

Now, is it remotely possible that these are believers who never knew Jesus? Sure, it is possible. But if this was the case, then Matthew 7:23 would not be an exhaustive truth on the matter, either. First, Matthew 13:41-42 teaches us that the Son of Man (Jesus) will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all those who do iniquity and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (the Lake of Fire). Nothing is mentioned here about how He never knew them in Matthew 13:41-42. It says that they were in HIS KINGDOM meaning they were once saved, and they later lost it on account of their justifying sin or iniquity. Also... we know by tons of Scripture verses that a believer can also fall away, too.

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3​

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)​

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back (James 5:19-20)​

In fact, Paul is against Eternal Security or a sin and still be saved type belief. For Paul says,

  1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).

  2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).

  3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).

  4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).

  5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).

  6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).

  7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).

  8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).

  9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).

  10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).



It could also be that they held to a belief that said that they could sin and still be saved. So they did wonderful works in his name, but they also worked iniquity (or sin). So their sin is what cast them out. For Jesus said depart from me ye that work iniquity (See: Matthew 7:23).



But Matthew 7:26-27 makes it clear that we have to do what He says and if we don't we are like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. So doing what Jesus says is the focus and thrust of Matthew 7:23.



It certainly is possible that a person can do righteous things in the Lord's name and not really know Jesus. A person does first have to be saved by God's grace before they can walk with the Lord. But neither can we do nothing for the Lord and say we are saved, either. Matthew 7:24-25 is focused on DOING what Jesus says. Yes, this must involve a relationship with Christ. But the point that Jesus wants to make is that we must do what He says and not in doing nothing.



Oh, no it's not. It is in doing what He says. For the person who does not do what Jesus says is a fool according to Jesus in Matthew 7:26-27. The person who does what Jesus says is called wise (See Matthew 7:24-25).



It does not say that. It simply says that they do not do what Jesus says in Matthew 7:26-27. You are adding to the Scriptures. Granted, we cannot do works alone without God's grace to save us. But neither can we just have a belief alone in Jesus and expect to be saved, either. Matthew 7:24-27 refutes that idea.

Sounds like it's quite difficult to not somehow forfeit your salvation.
 
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Sounds like it's quite difficult to not somehow forfeit your salvation.

If a person has a predisposition towards sin or the old man over loving the Lord, then I suppose so.
For it comes down to which master a person really wants to serve and love.
Do they love the Lord more?
Or do they love their sin more?
Jesus says we cannot serve two masters for we will end up hating one and loving the other.

Anyways, what do you think 2 Corinthians 7:1 says?
 
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Ceallaigh

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If a person has a predisposition towards sin or the old man over loving the Lord, then I suppose so.
For it comes down to which master a person really wants to serve and love.
Do they love the Lord more?
Or do they love their sin more?
Jesus says we cannot serve two masters for we will end up hating one and loving the other.

That sounds a lot less hopeless.

Anyways, what do you think 2 Corinthians 7:1 says?

Whatever I think it says or any verse says, it seems likely you or someone else here will insist that I'm wrong.
 
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mlepfitjw

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It is true that faith produces works of love forgiveness mercy kindness gentleness faithfulness joy peace patience.

Faith by loving God with all your mind, all your soul, all your heart liquifies the indulgent self ways, and produces fruitful ways of following Gods desires and will. Rather than our own.

You could show a coin that says faith on the front and the back would say love (works).

They are inseparable.
 
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Guojing

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Romans 4:4, and Works of Earning Money vs. Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift.

To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).​

So yes. I agree. Works Alone or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Works Alone Salvationism (without God’s grace) is wrong because one has no grace or rest ever. This would purely be a works based system of salvation with no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if one messes up. A person’s good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds.

But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift."

I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

Let me give you an example:

If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

Here is another example:

If Billy-Bob prayed for a wife for many years and he eventually receive a wife from the Lord and consider her as a gift, then that does not mean Billy-Bob can cheat on her and or not love her and expect for her to stay with him. It is the same with God. Disloyalty to GOD means we do not really love GOD and we just love ourselves more than Him. GOD calls us to obedience to His Word. This was the problem that goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden. But men today want to say that we can break God's commands and they will not die. This was the same lie that the enemy was trying to sell Eve on. The serpent told her that she would not die if she ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Which was a violation of God's command).

Anyways, in conclusion: We know that working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all. But men today confuse the issue to justify sin under God’s grace (Which is what Jude 1:4 warns against).

So you are another who divides works into works of law and works of faith in order to fit Romans 4:5 into your doctrine?

Alright then
 
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Guojing

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It is true that faith produces works of love forgiveness mercy kindness gentleness faithfulness joy peace patience.

Faith by loving God with all your mind, all your soul, all your heart liquifies the indulgent self ways, and produces fruitful ways of following Gods desires and will. Rather than our own.

You could show a coin that says faith on the front and the back would say love (works).

They are inseparable.

Does one need to love God, to be saved? What do you think?
 
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So you are another who divides works into works of law and works of faith in order to fit Romans 4:5 into your doctrine?

Alright then

It's the context. Paul is not talking about the work of faith in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. Paul is referring to the works of the Law of Moses. Romans 4:9-12 talks about circumcision. Romans 3:1 asks what profit is there in circumcision. So when Paul mentions the Law in Romans 4:13, he is referring to the works of the Law of Moses because circumcision was a part of the 613 laws of Moses and it was not a part of the works or laws given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers.

Galatians 5:2 is another big one. It says if you seek to be circumcised Christ will profit you nothing.
Then Galatians 5:4 mentions the Law and if you seek to be justified by the Law you have fallen from grace. Again this is in reference to folks thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved.

Read Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24. You will see that certain Jews were trying to deceive Gentile Christians into thinking they had to be circumcised and to keep the Law of Moses to be saved. For if a believer thought they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved, they would be making the Law the basis of their salvation instead of having faith in Jesus Christ, the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, and His mercy by faith (without the deeds of the law).

However, just to be clear: We are initially and foundationally saved by God's grace without the deeds of the Law, and then we continue on into the next step onward in God's plan of salvation in the Sanctification Process (Which is living holy by God's power) that involves the work of faith.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 tells us that the call of the gospel is... God has chosen us to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth. Titus 2:11-12 says God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.

In fact, what was the reason Christ died for us?

“Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” (Titus 2:14).

“...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.” (Ephesians 5:25-27).
 
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Does one need to love God, to be saved? What do you think?

Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
Paul said if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (See: 1 Corinthians 16:22).
 
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Soyeong

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So you're saying we are under the same old covenant laws that existed before Jesus died and resurrected? And that if we are are not obedient to those 613 laws Jesus doesn't know us?

In Jeremiah 9:24, those who experientially know God knows that He delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so delighting in testifying about those and other aspects of His nature through our obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to gain experiential knowledge of God, and of Christ, who is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through living in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law. The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does the nature of the Mosaic Law, which is because it is God's instructions for how to testify about His nature, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23).

For example, when we do what is righteous in obedience to the Mosaic Law, we are testifying about the righteousness of Christ and are thereby gaining experiential knowledge of who he is, or in other words we are growing in a relationship with him. Likewise, in 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Jesus, but don't obey his commands are liars an the truth is not in them, and in 1 John 3:4, sin is the transgression of the Mosaic Law, and those who continue to practice sin have neither seen or known him. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter into eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, in John 6:40, those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life, and in John 17:3, eternal life is experientially knowing God and Jesus, so again obedience to God's commandments is what it looks like to believe in him and is the way to grow in a relationship with him.

So while we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant, we are nevertheless still under the same God with the same nature and therefore the same laws for how to testify about his nature and the same way for how to grow in a relationship with Him. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is what it looks like to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20), so yes we are under the same laws as before the cross.

However, I don't think that it is a black and white either we know Jesus or we don't based on whether or not we obey all of God's laws, but rather the degree to which someone obeys the Mosaic Law is the degree to which they have gained experiential knowledge of him, though there is a line somewhere where Jesus will tell people to depart from him even through they thought they were doing good things in His name, through I think that has more to do with missing that the goal of obeying the Mosaic Law is to know Christ (Romans 9:30-10:4), which is through teaching us how to testify about his nature. In Philippians 3:8, Paul had been in the same boat as those in Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 23:23, Romans 9:30-10:4, and John 5:39-40, where he had been obeying the law while missing that the goal of the law is to know Christ, so he counted it all as rubbish.
 
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So you are another who divides works into works of law and works of faith in order to fit Romans 4:5 into your doctrine?

Alright then
While attending the Roman Catholic Church several years ago, I remember them teaching something similar like saved by “these” works (works of faith/good works) and just not “those” works (works of the law) in order to fit Romans 4:5-6 and Ephesians 2:8,9 into their doctrine.
 
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Soyeong

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So you are another who divides works into works of law and works of faith in order to fit Romans 4:5 into your doctrine?

Alright then

How do you reconcile Romans 4:4-5 with James 2:21-22? As far as I can tell, either those verses are contradicting each other, or we need to distinguish between works that are earning a wage and works that are an expression of faith. When we are doing works in order to earn a wage, we are doing something that is for the good of someone else, but when we are putting faith in someone to rightly guide us by following their instructions, then we are instead doing something that is for our own good, so we aren't earning a wage. There can be reasons for taking an action other than earning a wage, so the fact that our righteousness can't be earned as a wage does not mean that it does not involve doing actions for some other reason.
 
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While attending the Roman Catholic Church several years ago, I remember them teaching something similar like saved by “these” works (works of faith/good works) and just not “those” works (works of the law) in order to fit Romans 4:5-6 and Ephesians 2:8,9 into their doctrine.

Well, I respectfully disagree much with the Roman Catholic church on many things. But guilt by association is not always true just because they get many things wrong. The Catholic church believes in the Trinity. So obviously they get some things correct. They get the general idea of salvation correct, but when it comes to the details of Sanctification they drop the ball of course. For they believe good works also involves their extra biblical traditions that I believe are wrong, but that is another issue. But as I stated in post #31, I have proven that Paul is referring in context to the works of the Law of Moses and not the works of faith (involving the teachings of Jesus and His followers) that follows after being saved by God's grace. For you will not see Paul arguing against loving God and loving your neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life. For Jesus agreed with this truth in Luke 10:25-28; And Paul said if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (See: 1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and He gives grace to the humble.
 
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Guojing

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How do you reconcile Romans 4:4-5 with James 2:21-22? As far as I can tell, either those verses are contradicting each other, or we need to distinguish between works that are earning a wage and works that are an expression of faith. When we are doing works in order to earn a wage, we are doing something that is for the good of someone else, but when we are putting faith in someone to rightly guide us by following their instructions, then we are instead doing something that is for our own good, so we aren't earning a wage. There can be reasons for taking an action other than earning a wage, so the fact that our righteousness can't be earned as a wage does not mean that it does not involve doing actions for some other reason.

James was writing to the 12 tribes of Israel, and he wrote James before Paul wrote any of his epistles.

You can understand better his point in chapter 2 when you read Acts 21:20-25, which was years after Acts 15.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Under the gospel of the kingdom, Israel needed faith AND works in order to be saved (Matthew 5:17-19), so what he wrote in James 2:21-22 is valid. But as you can see from Acts 21:25, he was not referring to Gentile believers there.

The mystery of the cross and the Body of Christ was not revealed to him (Ephesians 3:9). The resurrected Christ never told Peter and the others that the Law of Moses have been nailed to the cross.
 
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Guojing

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Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
Paul said if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (See: 1 Corinthians 16:22).

What makes you think Paul is saying that man is not "truly saved"?
 
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How do you reconcile Romans 4:4-5 with James 2:21-22? As far as I can tell, either those verses are contradicting each other, or we need to distinguish between works that are earning a wage and works that are an expression of faith. When we are doing works in order to earn a wage, we are doing something that is for the good of someone else, but when we are putting faith in someone to rightly guide us by following their instructions, then we are instead doing something that is for our own good, so we aren't earning a wage. There can be reasons for taking an action other than earning a wage, so the fact that our righteousness can't be earned as a wage does not mean that it does not involve doing actions for some other reason.

I believe Paul was referring to “Works ALONE Salvationism” (without God's grace) via by the Law of Moses. Seeing at the Jerusalem council they addressed the heresy of what I call, “Circumcision Salvationism” (Which is a belief that says you must first be circumcised in order to be initially saved instead of having faith in Jesus). For if a person makes circumcision the basis of their salvation and not Jesus, they are trying to earn their salvation by works alone and they are not building upon God's grace. For if we mess up on rare occasion, do we do a work to offset that sin? No. We confess our sins to Jesus Christ and throw ourselves before His mercy. For if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). But if we believe we are saved by Works Alone, then we are trying to earn salvation. This is what I believe Paul is talking about. No Christian I know of believes in being saved by Works Alone without God's grace. Paul was arguing against those who thought they had to be circumcised in order to be initially saved instead of by God's grace. But people ignore this in the context because they want a simple way of salvation and they do not want to worry much about sin or in doing what is good always. For if we are saved no matter what we do, there really is not much incentive to live holy according to 2 Corinthians 7:1.
 
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Soyeong

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James was writing to the 12 tribes of Israel, and he wrote James before Paul wrote any of his epistles.

You can understand better his point in chapter 2 when you read Acts 21:20-25, which was years after Acts 15.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Under the gospel of the kingdom, Israel needed faith AND works in order to be saved (Matthew 5:17-19), so what he wrote in James 2:21-22 is valid. But as you can see from Acts 21:25, he was not referring to Gentile believers there.

The mystery of the cross and the Body of Christ was not revealed to him (Ephesians 3:9). The resurrected Christ never told Peter and the others that the Law of Moses have been nailed to the cross.

Can you see a difference between someone obeying God's commands because they have faith in God to rightly guide them and someone obeying God's commands because they want to earn their justification in return for their efforts?
 
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