Adam's Flesh Could Not Be Saved

Davy said:

I'm not saying the resurrection isn't real. But it is not to another flesh body. Paul clearly showed this in 1 Corinthians 15, so I'm not going to argue with those who won't read what Paul said there. And the fact that Lord Jesus mentioned the "resurrection of damnation" happening on the day of His coming too per John 5:28-29 ought to be enough to show the spiritual body does not mean automatic salvation in Him. Our souls have be made immortal also, born again by Faith on Jesus Christ.

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Jesus said a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. Blood is the life of both man and animal. In 1 Corinthians 15 it also represents the corruptible body which the bible says cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Jesus resurrected body was no longer corruptible but was a new glorified body of flesh and bones.

Luke 24:39
39 " See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

Genesis 9:4-6
4 "Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. 5 "Surely I will require your lifeblood; from every beast I will require it. And from every man, from every man's brother I will require the life of man.

6 " Whoever sheds man's blood,
By man his blood shall be shed,
For in the image of God
He made man.

1 Corinthians 15:50-51
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.


Paul not only states that one of the main tenants of the gospel is the belief that Jesus rose from the dead, but in verse 17, he goes on to say that “if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.” For centuries, Christians have taught and defended the doctrine of the resurrection – teaching that Jesus physically rose in the same human body in which He died. Notice the correlation between the perishable human body and the imperishable resurrected body as described in 1 Corinthians 15:42-44:
“So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.”


The Greek term, “soma” for “body” is always used in Scripture to refer to physical nature. Likewise, the term “spiritual” is used in the Scripture to denote “supernatural” behavior—not a “spiritual” essence of being. Thus, the phrase “spiritual body” in the passage above speaks of a “physical supernatural” body—not a “spirit body.” Another example of the term “spiritual” referring to “supernatural” behavior is 1 Corinthians 2:15 where we read, “But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no man.” The “spiritual” person in both of these passages is behaving in a “supernatural” way, not ontologically transforming “human” essence into “spirit” essence.

1 CORINTHIANS 15:50: “Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.” Rhodes


Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that Jesus could not have risen in His human body of flesh and bones, because Scripture states that “flesh and blood” cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Notice that Jesus did not say that His resurrected body was made of “flesh and blood.” Rather, He said His body was made of “flesh and bone” (Luke 24:39). This is significant because the term “flesh and blood” is often used in Scripture to refer to mortal humanity,in contrast to the imperishable, resurrected body alluded to by the phrase, “flesh and bones.”


As noted earlier, Jesus’ blood provided the atonement for sin. He did not take His “blood” back, but merely resurrected his body of flesh and bones. Far from claiming that the resurrected human body cannot inherit God’s kingdom, this passage asserts that the mortal, perishable human body (made of flesh and blood) cannot inherit the immortal, imperishable kingdom of God. Indeed as 1 Corinthians 15:53 states, “this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.”


A spiritual body denotes an immortal body. A spiritual body is one that is dominated by the spirit, not one that is devoid of matter. The Greek word pneumatikos means a body that is directed by the spirit as opposed to one under the dominion of the flesh. It is not ruled by the flesh that perishes but by the spirit that endures. (1 Corinthians 15:50-58). A spiritual body does no mean immaterial or invisible but immortal and imperishable. Paul makes these parallels:


Earthly- Heavenly (verse 40)

Perishable- Imperishable (verse 42)

Weak- Powerful (verse 43)

Natural-Supernatural (verse 44)

Mortal- Immortal (verse 53)


The content shows that spiritual (pneumatikos) could be translated supernatural in contrast to natural from the parallels of perishable and imperishable, corruptible and incorruptible. Pneumatikos is translated supernatural in 1 Corinthians 10:4 regarding the supernatural rock that followed them in the wilderness. In the translation spiritual refers to physical objects. In 1 Corinthians 10:45 Paul spoke of the spiritual rock that followed Israel in the wilderness from which they got spiritual drink 1 Corinthians 10:4.But the OT story (Exodus 17;Numbers 20)reveals it was a physical rock from which they got literal water to drink. The actual water they drank from the material rock was produced supernaturally. Further Paul spoke about a spiritual man 1 Corinthians 2:15 he obviously did not mean an invisible, immaterial man with no corporeal body. He was as a matter of fact speaking of a flesh and blood human being whose life is lived by the supernatural power of God, a literal person whose life is Spirit directed. A spiritual man is one who is taught by the Spirit and who receives the things that come from the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 2:13-14). The resurrection body can be called a spiritual body in much the same way we speak of the bible being a spiritual book. Regardless of their spiritual source and power both the resurrection body and the bible are material objects.


Life giving Spirit does not speak of the nature of Christ’s resurrected body but of the divine origin of the resurrection. Jesus physical body came back to life only by the power of God. (Romans 1:4). Paul is speaking about its spiritual source not its physical substance as a material body. If spirit describes the nature of Christ’s resurrected body then Adam with whom He is contrasted must not have a soul since he is described as of the earth, made of dust (verse 47). But the bible clearly says that Adam was a living soul (Genesis 2:7). Christ’s body is called a spiritual body (soma) which always means a physical body when referring to an individual human being. The resurrected body is called spiritual and life-giving spirit because its source is in the spiritual realm, not because its substance is immaterial. Christ’s supernatural resurrection body is from heaven as Adams natural body was from the earth. (verse 47). But just as the one from earth has an immaterial soul even so the One from heaven has a material body.


1 Corinthians 15:50-54
50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

Paul said earlier in the chapter if Christ be not risen your faith is in vain and you are still dead in your sins- an unbeliever who is lost. Those who deny the physical bodily resurrection of Jesus such as the JW's who teach that Jesus is now a spirit based being fit into this camp. They deny the resurrection.

If we look at what Paul is saying in this passage, it is that corruptible flesh and blood shall not enter the kingdom. Paul says corruptible does not inherit the incorruptible. Paul is not saying the resurrection body will not have flesh but what he declares is that resurrected body will not have perishable flesh. Remember in Luke Jesus said see here My hands and feet, touch Me a spirit/ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. Peter, Paul and John all agree that Jesus still had flesh well after His ascension. 1 John being the last of the books of the three Apostles declared that Jesus having come in the flesh and those who deny this are the spirit of antichrist. John makes it clear that the Incarnation was permanent. Jesus is forever both God and man. This is what Paul teaches in the whole 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians. The glorious physical bodies that we will have in the resurrection. We will have incorruptible bodies just as Jesus now has in heaven.

Soul= immortal, imperishable

and Flesh=mortal, perishable.

Now in the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 the perishable (your body now ) with put on the imperishable(body that does not perish). Just as we see with Jesus Resurrected body it is physical, has flesh and bones, the scars from His crucifixion which proves it was the same body but had changed from mortal to immortal.


hope this helps,

Davy said:

You're free to believe men's doctrines about an imaginary flesh perfection if you want, but I'll stay with God's Word as written (1 Corinthians 15:49-50).

God created Adam and Eve 'sinless', but in a body of corruption, i.e., flesh, which was subject to sin.

If that were not so, then that old serpent's tempting Eve would have never worked. This is not just Bible 101, but it is common sense 101.

Thus men's leaven doctrines ADDED to God's Word, suggesting that Adam and Eve's flesh represented the perfection of Christ's future Salvation state is a FALSEHOOD! It is only an idea drummed up by men's leaven doctrines to try... and support the old false Jewish tradition that our dead loved ones are still out in a casket in the ground waiting for their 'flesh' to be resurrected! That dead in the ground theory goes directly against Apostle Paul's Epistles that show it is our 'spirit' that is saved by Christ, not our flesh body.

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God written word does not say what you say it does. It is your imperfect corrupt flesh that has made God to do imperfect things and added to His word----this is a useless converstaion and I am unwatching this thread. God help you to see Him, and not the musings of your own imperferct heart.

Davy said:

I'm not JW. And no, this is not about what they teach. Anyone disagreeing can just slap on a cult label in trying to discredit it. In this case, you tried it against common sense.

The common sense part? Like I had said, if Adam and Eve prior to the sin represented Christ's Salvation, then it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for them to be tempted into the sin. Understanding that doesn't require one to be a member of a cult. It only requires common sense.



If you mean by the word 'physical' another flesh body, then that is not Biblical. Paul and Lord Jesus (Matthew 22:30) were specific that the resurrection is to a spiritual body, a heavenly type body like the angels. So words like 'physical' is not enough to describe it. This is why Paul gave specific examples in 1 Cor.15 to show it is not just another flesh body.

1 Corinthians 15 makes it clear that the resurrection is to a "spiritual body".

1 Cor 15:42-47
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
KJV

In Matthew 22:30, Lord Jesus said those of the resurrection "... are as the angels of God in heaven." That definitely does not mean another flesh type body. It means a heavenly type body, what Paul called the "image of the heavenly" in 1 Cor.15.



The Greek word 'soma' is not enough to establish the different type bodies Paul taught in 1 Cor.15. That's why he gave the many contrasts in 1 Corinthians 15:43-54 between a flesh body and a spiritual body, the image of the earthy vs. the image of the heavenly.

There is absolutely no way to misinterpret what Paul said there about the resurrection being a body type of the heavenly image, like the angels.


And NO... I definitely am NOT denying the bodily Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. That is a false accusation, and most likely just so you can keep the false doctrine of man that the resurrection is to another flesh body. Christ's flesh body was transfigured to the heavenly per Paul in 1 Cor.15, ours won't be. But you obviously missed reading that from Apostle Paul too...

1 Cor 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
KJV

1 Cor 15:47-50
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Who can deny that Paul is contrasting two different dimension body types in the above? Flesh certainly is not spirit. Jesus represents that "last Adam" being made a what? A "quickening spirit". That means at some point Lord Jesus' resurrected flesh body was transfigured to the heavenly image. The next example confirms that also, "the second man is the Lord from heaven," Paul making certain that we understand this difference of body types.


And just to make sure, Paul goes over this flesh vs. spirit type bodies yet again...

1 Cor 15:48-50
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

So you make all the false claims you want with trying to discredit me, but all you're actually doing is DENYING the written Scripture by Apostle Paul, and even Lord Jesus in Matthew 22:30! If you believe on our Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior then why would you want to believe the hirelings that preach for money who mislead you away from that written Scripture?

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No you are denying the gospel and the resurrection plus numerous other core doctrines such as the Incarnation which was permanent the uniting of the 2 natures in Christ as the son of man(human nature) and the Son of God(Divine nature). Colossians 1:19 and 2:9( all the fulness of Deity dwells bodily in Him) along with 1 John 4:2-3 , 2 John 1:7(Christ has come in the flesh which is a participle of continuation- present) make it abundantly clear that Christ is still in the flesh, a man. For there is One God and One Mediator between God and man, the MAN Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5.

You espouse numerous non trinitarian heresies.

In fact it makes you a non trinitarian by default.

hope this helps !!!

I'll take you to school after work.

Davy said:

The hirelings that preach for money have done a good job with what they taught you. Try reading the actual 1 Corinthians 15 Scripture instead of mocking it.

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I did not mock the word of God!! You are bearing false witness with that, do not do it again! Jesus was rasised from the dead, as we will be. And what did Jesus do after His resurrection?---He ate fish, He had His wound poked at with a finger, He was touched, He was fully seen, He cooked fish for the apostles---what makes you think that the resurrected body is nothing but some atmospheric miasma? We will eat, drink, build homes on the new earth---Jesus has gone to prepare us our city dwelling places. We will plant, we will have animals. None of this implies a non physical body. I suggest you try reading the bible---all of it---without adding to it.

mmksparbud said:

I did not mock the word of God!! You are bearing false witness with that, do not do it again! Jesus was rasised from the dead, as we will be. And what did Jesus do after His resurrection?---He ate fish, He had His wound poked at with a finger, He was touched, He was fully seen, He cooked fish for the apostles---what makes you think that the resurrected body is nothing but some atmospheric miasma? We will eat, drink, build homes on the new earth---Jesus has gone to prepare us our city dwelling places. We will plant, we will have animals. None of this implies a non physical body. I suggest you try reading the bible---all of it---without adding to it.

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Amen

Davy said:

The hirelings that preach for money have done a good job with what they taught you. Try reading the actual 1 Corinthians 15 Scripture instead of mocking it.

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The "spiritual " body is still a physical body but is 100% controlled by the power of the Spirit void of any sinful flesh and its desires.

See my biblical examples of the Spiritual Rock, Spiritual Food, Spiritual Drink, Spiritual man etc....... above that prove spiritual is used by Paul in this context to mean that the origin/control is by and of the Spirit with things that are physical in nature.

hope this helps !!!

Davy said:

I am not denying God's Word on this. You are denying the 1 Corinthians 15 Scripture, and everyone reading my posts can well see those like you denying that Scripture. You may have some fans here that also like you deny the 1 Cor.15 Scripture as written, but you certainly cannot prove I'm denying it! Your only showing your refusal of the 1 Cor.15 Scripture, along with Scripture like Matthew 22:30 about the resurrection body type.



NONE of those Scriptures go against what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 that the resurrection body type is to a "spiritual body", the "image of the heavenly".

And I NEVER... EVER... denied that my Lord Jesus was born in the flesh through woman! You make that FALSE ACCUSATION again and I will report you.

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Lets begin with some biblical facts.
1- God is Spirit
2- God is Triune- the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit
3- The Son is God, the 2nd Divine Person of the Trinity
4- God the Son BECAME man via the Incarnation. Nowhere does it ever say in Scripture the Son was in the flesh prior to His birth as a man.
5- Jesus declared He was NOT A SPIRIT in nature.
6- Resurrection by definition is bodily, physical from OT, NT and Jewish sources.
7- Man was created in the image of God and post Resurrection and that He was FLESH and BONES. Flesh and bones are physicalwas designed to have a real material physical body. Man is body, soul and spirit.
8- Literally there are well over a 100 uses of the phrase " son of man" in Scripture and Jesus used this of Himself over 80 times
9- Son of man means having the human nature of man which includes a physical body. Look up the meaning sometime.
10-There are numerous unfulfilled passages in Scripture regarding the future return of the Son of man.
11- The Son of man will return physically as a man with a human body,soul and spirit.
12- Jesus is Immutable, He is the same yesterday, today and forever. The Incarnation was permanent not temporal as ALL the CREEDS in Christendom proclaim as did the ECF's, the Apostles, Jesus and the Prophets.

The number one test to distinguish truth for error and the Spirit of God from that of the spirit of antichrist is the confession of our divine Lord Jesus Christ. Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God. There is one thing the spirit of antichrist will deny and that is they will deny the deity of Jesus Christ. They will deny God in human flesh. They will always deny the Incarnation which was permanent. When a person affirms that Jesus Christ is God in flesh that equates to divine truth. Every spirit that confesses meaning to continually confess or agrees with saying the same thing as John declares in his writings is from God. This is the person who is taught by the Spirit of God according to John. The first test that you want to have for any teacher is their Christology, check out what they say about Christ. This becomes a litmus test that is very easy to spot among the false teachers. If you have somebody who denies the deity of Christ you have a clear indication they are of the spirit of antichrist.

If we go back to the beginning of 1 John, we read that which we he beheld, and actually touched concerning the Word of life. That is a term expressing the very deity of Christ. Christ emanates from God as His living Word. He was with the Father in the beginning in 1:2. Jesus was One with the Father sharing the same essence with the Father in heaven with Him before the foundation of the world. John says He was manifested to us. John's language then starts out with the fact that Jesus Christ emanates from God as the very living Word of God. Jesus is the living Word of God,the One John says that was from the beginning that we heard, we saw and we touched. Jesus the Word of life was the eternal One who was with the Father prior to His Incarnation and was then manifested to us in the flesh that we could see and hear and touch according to John. Therefore, we can clearly see Jesus is the very Word of God Incarnate. He is the eternal life who became flesh. The Word who was with God, the Word who was God, was the One who John says was manifested to us. This is how we can tell the spirit of truth from the spirit of antichrist. Can you confess Jesus is God Incarnate?



1 John 4:2
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;


2 John 7
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.


Erchomenon the present participle in 2 John 7. Below these Greek Scholars and Theologians confirm the fact Jesus remains in the flesh post Ascension.


Alford- the present tense is timeless(pg 274 RNTC on 2 John)

Brooke- the Incarnation is not only an event in history, it is an abiding truth(pg 274 RNTC on 2 John)

Stott- the two natures manhood and Godhood were united already at His birth, never to be divided. In 1 John 4:2 and here in 2 John 7 emphasizes this permanent union of the natures in the One Person ( TNTC pages 209-210) He who denies the Incarnation is not just a deceiver and an antichrist but “the deceiver and the antichrist”. There is in this heresy a double affront: it opposes Christ and deceives men.(stott TNCT page 210)

Marshall- the use of the present and perfect tenses becomes significant if the point is that Jesus Christ had come and still existed “in flesh”. For him(John) it was axiomatic that there had been a true Incarnation, that the word became flesh and remained flesh. It is a point that receives much stress in 1 John 2:18-28;4:1-6;5:5-8. (NICNT pages 70-71)

Smalley- the present tense emphasizes the permanent union of the human and Divine natures in Jesus. Gods self disclosure in Jesus took place at a particular moment in history , but it has continuing effects in the present and into the future(Word Biblical Commentary page 317)

Nicoll- the continuous manifestation of the Incarnate Christ(Expositors Greek Testament Volume 5 page 202)


Akin- Much has been made of the fact that John uses the present tense in this Christological confession. Literally the verse reads, “Jesus Christ coming in flesh.” “Coming” is a present active participle. This stands out in remarkable contrast to the affirmation of 1 John 4:2, where the text states that “Jesus Christ has [emphasis mine] come in the flesh.” There the perfect active participle is used. The key, it seems, is to discover what John is affirming. Here in 2 John the emphasis falls on the abiding reality of the incarnation. First John 4:2 teaches that the Christ, the Father’s Son (v. 3), has come in the flesh. Second John affirms that the wedding of deity and humanity has an abiding reality (cf. 1 Tim 2:5). The ontological and essential nature of the incarnation that would receive eloquent expression one thousand years later in the writing of St. Anselm (1033–1109) in his classic Cur Deus Homo is already present in seed form in the tiny and neglected letter of 2 John.


Lenski- In 1 John 4:2 we have ἐν σαρκὶ ἐληλυθότα, the perfect participle, “as having come in flesh” (incarnate, John 1:14); here we have ἐρχόμενον ἐν σαρκί, “as coming in flesh,” although the participle is present in form it is really timeless.



of Christ as "still being manifested." See the note at 1 John 3:5. In 1 John 4:2 we have the manifestation treated as a past fact by the perfect tense, ‎eleeluthota ‎"has come

Robertson- That Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh ‎Ieesoun ‎‎Christon ‎‎erchomenon ‎‎en ‎‎sarki‎. "Jesus Christ coming in the flesh." Present middle participle of ‎erchomai ‎treating the Incarnation as a continuing fact which the Docetic Gnostics flatly denied. In 1 John 4:2 we have ‎eleeluthota ‎(perfect active participle) in this same construction with ‎homologeoo‎, because there the reference is to the definite historical fact of the Incarnation.

Vincent- Is come ‎erchomenon‎. Wrong. The verb is in the present participle, "coming," which describes the manhood



hope this helps !!!

@Davy Read Rev 21-22 its a real literal physical city with a real physical new heavens and earth and we will live as humans for all eternity who are body, soul and spirit. The difference being the new creation will be incorruptible and we will be immortal never again will sin be an issue it will be something of the past.

hope this helps !!!

Davy said:

God creating man in His image and likeness per Genesis 1 is about the 'outer' appearance. The outward image of man comes from how God Himself looks, for the image of man originates from Him. That has nothing to do with how God Himself is Perfect and can never sin.

Such an analogy between God and the flesh ought to easily be understood by those who believe on Jesus Christ, since Jesus of Nazareth was perfect in His flesh as He had no sin. Could Adam be like that? Obviously not, because he sinned, and his sin was imparted to all born flesh, excepting Christ Jesus. Wow, what exactly is this leading to? Simple, the fact that there's only ONE Savior of those born in the flesh, and that is Jesus Christ, not the man Adam.

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only one problem with that, God is spirit not flesh, God does not have a physical body.