bling

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But that is not how Christianity works.
Are nonbelieving sinners on the opposite side with the believers?

Do we not all start out as soldiers for satan?

Is God not our enemy to begin with, not wanting us to seek carnal pleasures at the expense of others?

If we are hell bound why would we “love” God?

Does the nonbelieving have to be humbly willing to accept God’s pure undeserving charity?

Does “he that is forgiven much Love much”, so if you come to the realization and accept forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt will you not automatically receive an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love).

Can Godly type Love be instinctive (robotic) to a person or can Godly type Love be forced on a person (like with a shotgun wedding and God holding the shotgun)?

When you go to the nonbelieving sinner are you not just wanting him to accept the gift of Jesus and him crucified or does God do that?

Charity is in some ways hard to accept as charity, we will do almost anything to avoid having to humbly accept pure undeserved charity. To avoid having to humble themselves to the point of truly accepting pure charity: people will even say: “a person cannot humbly accept God’s charity unless God makes them accept it.”
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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Are nonbelieving sinners on the opposite side with the believers?

Do we not all start out as soldiers for satan?

Is God not our enemy to begin with, not wanting us to seek carnal pleasures at the expense of others?

If we are hell bound why would we “love” God?

Does the nonbelieving have to be humbly willing to accept God’s pure undeserving charity?

Does “he that is forgiven much Love much”, so if you come to the realization and accept forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt will you not automatically receive an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love).

Can Godly type Love be instinctive (robotic) to a person or can Godly type Love be forced on a person (like with a shotgun wedding and God holding the shotgun)?

When you go to the nonbelieving sinner are you not just wanting him to accept the gift of Jesus and him crucified or does God do that?

Charity is in some ways hard to accept as charity, we will do almost anything to avoid having to humbly accept pure undeserved charity. To avoid having to humble themselves to the point of truly accepting pure charity: people will even say: “a person cannot humbly accept God’s charity unless God makes them accept it.”

Some things I believe about salvation that you may not.

God saves us. We do not save ourselves. We cannot bring ourselves back from the dead. Further, the manifestation of God saving us is also not of us or because of us.
 
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bling

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Some things I believe about salvation that you may not.

God saves us. We do not save ourselves. We cannot bring ourselves back from the dead. Further, the manifestation of God saving us is also not of us or because of us.
If you read my post, you would know: the person does nothing worthy, honorable, righteous, glorious., holy or noble. The person does have to humbly accept pure undeserved charity as charity, like a sincere beggar receiving charity, which is not work.

God wants all sinners to be saved, but not everyone is willing to humbly accept God’s charity.

Do you feel God’s Love or power is not great enough to save all?
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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If you read my post, you would know: the person does nothing worthy, honorable, righteous, glorious., holy or noble. The person does have to humbly accept pure undeserved charity as charity, like a sincere beggar receiving charity, which is not work.

God wants all sinners to be saved, but not everyone is willing to humbly accept God’s charity.

Do you feel God’s Love or power is not great enough to save all?

But I don't believe one can begrudgingly accept salvation. I just don't think that kind of salvation exists. That would be my biggest issue with the way you've stated things. The second issue is that I am a monergist and you seem to be a synergist.
 
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bling

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But I don't believe one can begrudgingly accept salvation. I just don't think that kind of salvation exists. That would be my biggest issue with the way you've stated things. The second issue is that I am a monergist and you seem to be a synergist.
I did not say that at all, The sinner is humbly willing to accept pure charity and is surprised by a shower of gifts.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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I did not say that at all, The sinner is humbly willing to accept pure charity and is surprised by a shower of gifts.

I got that impression somehow.
 
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Fervent

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How are you getting around the fact: if God knows perfectly what future choices I will make in my future that choice cannot be a free will choice because I cannot choose to make a different choice then the choice God knows I made. .

This problem really is a matter of perspective. God knows our choices without directly influencing them because of HOW God perceives existence. He is not within time, His perception of time is not dependent on a before/after paradigm but instead it is all present at once. For us, it proceeds in a directional manner with each moment being dependent on one another yet it's not truly that way so we can genuinely choose in a given moment yet still have that choice be known to God because we have already made the choices before the moment comes.
 
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bling

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This problem really is a matter of perspective. God knows our choices without directly influencing them because of HOW God perceives existence. He is not within time, His perception of time is not dependent on a before/after paradigm but instead it is all present at once. For us, it proceeds in a directional manner with each moment being dependent on one another yet it's not truly that way so we can genuinely choose in a given moment yet still have that choice be known to God because we have already made the choices before the moment comes.
That is the way I see it also "a Block Universe".
 
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Mark Quayle

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How are you getting around the fact: if God knows perfectly what future choices I will make in my future that choice cannot be a free will choice because I cannot choose to make a different choice then the choice God knows I made.
Can you envision the Atheists dealing with this question? They either reject free will altogether, (since causation rules (all the way back)), or they see the facts parallel to how many Christians think, that autonomous free will is valid, and nobody makes them decide any particular way. They appeal to randomness and/or the integrity or superiority in some way, of some people compared to others.

Leaving alone the illogic of randomness and of Autonomy, for now, consider this: That whether or not there is free will or robotic choice, or whatever other assessments one may wish to attach to the question of why or how we choose as we do, IF (in our minds) God is set as First Cause of the chain of causation, how has the situation changed? Why suddenly is God unjust, particularly to a Christian? If the causes affect the decisions, apart from God causing them, there is no complaint, but if God causes the causes, all the sudden we have a problem? All the sudden, what did not demand any consideration of freewill, is now a crime against freewill?

To restate, why does 'God knowing all our choices' eliminate freewill, when 'God not knowing all our choices' still leaves those choices caused the same way, by the same influences (or by autonomous free will)?
 
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bling

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Can you envision the Atheists dealing with this question? They either reject free will altogether, (since causation rules (all the way back)), or they see the facts parallel to how many Christians think, that autonomous free will is valid, and nobody makes them decide any particular way. They appeal to randomness and/or the integrity or superiority in some way, of some people compared to others.

Leaving alone the illogic of randomness and of Autonomy, for now, consider this: That whether or not there is free will or robotic choice, or whatever other assessments one may wish to attach to the question of why or how we choose as we do, IF (in our minds) God is set as First Cause of the chain of causation, how has the situation changed? Why suddenly is God unjust, particularly to a Christian? If the causes affect the decisions, apart from God causing them, there is no complaint, but if God causes the causes, all the sudden we have a problem? All the sudden, what did not demand any consideration of freewill, is now a crime against freewill?

To restate, why does 'God knowing all our choices' eliminate freewill, when 'God not knowing all our choices' still leaves those choices caused the same way, by the same influences (or by autonomous free will)?
One of the huge problems with your idea about God is: "God is set as First Cause of the chain of causation..." Since God did not just do one first cause, but is doing millions of first causes every minute, to make the world the best for willing individuals.
 
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One of the huge problems with your idea about God is: "God is set as First Cause of the chain of causation..." Since God did not just do one first cause, but is doing millions of first causes every minute, to make the world the best for willing individuals.

What is wrong with this exactly?
 
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bling

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What is wrong with this exactly?
There is not just one one time first cause, but God as a first causer is causing tons of stuff to happen each day that would not happen without Him causing it to happen and nothing is causing God to do these things except God.
 
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Noxot

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God plays with us whether we know it or not but it is better to knowingly play with God.

Jesus mentioned the difficulty of learning heavenly things so I think most Christians are lacking major ideas in how reality could be like which greatly affects what they will subsequently think about concerning other major ideas. for instance that the Trinity is summed up in three that are one and that they provide for different aspects of reality for us which means that two people could say different things which seem like they contradict against some other truth but are fully resolved when you take a step back and clearly see the bigger picture and process of how things happen.

our thinking needs to have in mind such questions as "what is the highest and best possible way, the wisest, most loving and greatest?" because God is so much better than anything we can know forever and ever... we shall always learn more of and see better, growing stronger and more beautiful. if you forsake divine love and wisdom then you trade it for something less. you turn to idols and beast of mount sinai. you have an appearance of wisdom and truth but you lack the vital life energy that makes the difference between a corpse and a living creature with eyes all around.
 
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Fervent

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Can you envision the Atheists dealing with this question? They either reject free will altogether, (since causation rules (all the way back)), or they see the facts parallel to how many Christians think, that autonomous free will is valid, and nobody makes them decide any particular way. They appeal to randomness and/or the integrity or superiority in some way, of some people compared to others.

Leaving alone the illogic of randomness and of Autonomy, for now, consider this: That whether or not there is free will or robotic choice, or whatever other assessments one may wish to attach to the question of why or how we choose as we do, IF (in our minds) God is set as First Cause of the chain of causation, how has the situation changed? Why suddenly is God unjust, particularly to a Christian? If the causes affect the decisions, apart from God causing them, there is no complaint, but if God causes the causes, all the sudden we have a problem? All the sudden, what did not demand any consideration of freewill, is now a crime against freewill?

To restate, why does 'God knowing all our choices' eliminate freewill, when 'God not knowing all our choices' still leaves those choices caused the same way, by the same influences (or by autonomous free will)?
What you've described makes the "whether or not there is free will or robotic choice" irrelevant because both are actually impossible according to your scenario. What you have set forth is an observor self who is simply experiencing God's choices and internalizing them as if they are their own. Any attempt to turn that into free will or even choice is nothing but the illusion of choice. Authentic choice requires a violation of causation, whether that be natural causes or Divine causes. And there's no sense denying authentic choice because there is no way to behave as if we don't have free will, whether that's a limited free will or not. And free will is an all-or-nothing proposition, there is no "sort of" free choice. Either our choices are authentically free, or there is no actual choice merely an illusion of it.
 
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Noxot

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only God can provide for free will due to his infinite nature. limited beings need supplements in order for them to be free. since I believe in God I can believe in my own freedom. the nearest star is very very far away from us. the universe is so big that creatures flinging through space on a rock are so insignificant that humans could hardly be said to even exist at all. we are but a vapor. or at least we would be... yet God is our brother and friend, or so he claims.
 
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There is not just one one time first cause, but God as a first causer is causing tons of stuff to happen each day that would not happen without Him causing it to happen and nothing is causing God to do these things except God.

I agree with what you are saying.
 
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Mark Quayle

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What you've described makes the "whether or not there is free will or robotic choice" irrelevant because both are actually impossible according to your scenario.

Exactly Thank you!

Authentic choice requires a violation of causation, whether that be natural causes or Divine causes. And there's no sense denying authentic choice because there is no way to behave as if we don't have free will, whether that's a limited free will or not. And free will is an all-or-nothing proposition, there is no "sort of" free choice. Either our choices are authentically free, or there is no actual choice merely an illusion of it.
"Authentic choice" is what we do have. Real choice. The options in a choice may be said to be illusions, (except for the one God predestined), or you can even say that we determine what God has already determined, because yes, we always do choose what he determined. Nevertheless, our choice was an an authentic decision, whether we knew it or not. But all that can be said of a robot. But we are willed --Robots are not.

The way that we like to think, that it is either us or God, demonstrates our wish to wrest some of his authority from him, and our ignorance concerning his purposes toward us. Or for some, simple rebelliousness.

Our lives are not ours.
 
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Fervent

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Exactly Thank you!


"Authentic choice" is what we do have. Real choice. The options in a choice may be said to be illusions, (except for the one God predestined), or you can even say that we determine what God has already determined, because yes, we always do choose what he determined. Nevertheless, our choice was an an authentic decision, whether we knew it or not. But all that can be said of a robot. But we are willed --Robots are not.

The way that we like to think, that it is either us or God, demonstrates our wish to wrest some of his authority from him, and our ignorance concerning his purposes toward us. Or for some, simple rebelliousness.

Our lives are not ours.
So when John Wayne Gacy raped and murdered teenage boys, it wasn't his choice but God's choice that he rape and murder those boys?

Saying we "choose" what God has decided is not a choice at all. Choice requires ability to actually enact either option, if there is only one option then there is no choice. And authentic choice requires that the origin of the decision rests with the one choosing it. Robots don't have wills, nor do computers. No one would say Google chose to display the results of your query for simply following its code. All you're doing is making a mockery of the English language and logic by insisting that Not-A is actually A even though it is in fact Not-A.
 
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Mark Quayle

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So when John Wayne Gacy raped and murdered teenage boys, it wasn't his choice but God's choice that he rape and murder those boys?
NO ! I just finished saying WE DO CHOOSE. The fact that God caused all things does in no way relinquish us from the responsibility for what we choose. After all, who can argue that we didn't do it? or that we weren't altogether willing to do it, or even that we were forced to do it? Were we not wholly in cooperation with our will?

God commanded. We disobeyed, because of enmity against God. Our WILL hates God, unless God changes our will.

I wish I knew how to describe the absolute otherness of God, in his superiority above us. Do you have a problem with his pride, even his jealousy, his love of self? He is so far above us, it is a whole different KIND of thing. We have no rights, in and of ourselves, to be calling "injustice" "unloving" concerning anything God might do. We are ignorant worms! It is not only because we are sinful, that we are not worthy of his respect, but because we are NOTHING, without him.
 
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Fervent

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NO ! I just finished saying WE DO CHOOSE. The fact that God caused all things does in no way relinquish us from the responsibility for what we choose. After all, who can argue that we didn't do it? or that we weren't altogether willing to do it, or even that we were forced to do it? Were we not wholly in cooperation with our will?

God commanded. We disobeyed, because of enmity against God. Our WILL hates God, unless God changes our will.

I wish I knew how to describe the absolute otherness of God, in his superiority above us. Do you have a problem with his pride, even his jealousy, his love of self? He is so far above us, it is a whole different KIND of thing. We have no rights, in and of ourselves, to be calling "injustice" "unloving" concerning anything God might do. We are ignorant worms! It is not only because we are sinful, that we are not worthy of his respect, but because we are NOTHING, without him.
None of what you said addresses the basic point, you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth by saying we are responsible for God's actions. If everything is caused and willed by God and there is no resistence to that will then there's no such thing as our will. At best we are spectators, passengers captive in a body existing for the sole purpose of either being rewarded or tortured based on the abritrary whim of a capricious tyrant. There is no such thing as "sin" to be had, nor any ground for guilt since under your scenario we are helpless to avoid doing what God has determined we are going to do.
 
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