Don't live for the miracle.

Carl Emerson said:

If you read it - I included a link to the medical records which I photographed and posted.

See post #86

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There is no link to medical records that post.

Larnievc said:

There is no link to medical records that post.

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That post references another post in another thread, but he did post them. Here's the shortcut:

Speaking In Tongues

Moral Orel said:

That post references another post in another thread, but he did post them. Here's the shortcut:

Speaking In Tongues

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So it’s either a miracle or human error?

Larnievc said:

So it’s either a miracle or human error?

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Meh, I don't care about this topic so much. I was just trying to be helpful in a completely technical role.

True Counterphobia said:

Yes, I think that seems to be the case.

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I think it likely to be human error and that the poster has correlated his prayer with the human error and concluded a miracle.

True Counterphobia said:

Of course you do. That's not the question. The question is why you do.

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I’ve edited my previous post for clarity.

True Counterphobia said:

Let's pretend for a moment that miracles in the Bible were done for a specific time, at a specific place, for a specific purpose, by God, but that these ceased shortly after or when the Apostles died.

How would that effect how you approach reading the Bible?

Alternatively, what if miracles that happened in the Bible were done for a specific time, at a specific place, for a specific purpose, by God, with the qualifier that miracles still happen today, just to a much less rate of frequency.

How would that effect how you approach reading the Bible?

Open discussion for Christians and Atheists.

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I had a thread a while ago that delved a little into this... theologically speaking, it would be problematic to say the least.

A god's inactions are every bit as significant as his actions. A god who at one point sets aside the laws of the universe to achieve his purpose must have a reason for suddenly stopping... we can only speculate as to the reasons... and none of them are particularly flattering to the deity in question.

True Counterphobia said:

I'm sure you would be interested in seeing them. But if you want to see them just to try and "figure them out" I'm not sure what the point of me telling you would be. As I've said here before, there are cons to telling you, such as you not believing them because you will be held accountable for what testimony you get from Believers. I'm actually looking out for you by not telling you. If I tell you about them, and you just hand wave the whole thing and you never become a Christian, you will get a "worse" punishment for knowing something like this. At least that is a possibility to me.

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All due respect, but this sounds like a runaround to me.

When Jesus healed someone 2000 years ago, there was little chance that the healing would compromise the medical science of that day. A similar healing today would have the potential to do great harm. Professionals in the medical field could be led astray, believing a certain course of therapy was successful when it was not. This doesn't mean that "miracles" don't happen in our modern age, but it does mean that the choice to perform one is a far more complex decision than it once was.

Rodan6 said:

When Jesus healed someone 2000 years ago, there was little chance that the healing would compromise the medical science of that day. A similar healing today would have the potential to do great harm. Professionals in the medical field could be led astray, believing a certain course of therapy was successful when it was not. This doesn't mean that "miracles" don't happen in our modern age, but it does mean that the choice to perform one is a far more complex decision than it once was.

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That does not seem to make sense at all. An ad hoc rationalisation, I should say.
Why should anyone care if the miracle is misunderstood? So, some people misinterpret it. Is this a problem?
After all, couldn't people have misunderstood Jesus' miracles in just the same way - for example, attributing it to another God? Did Jesus go around saying, "I'd better not work a miracle today - supposing people see it, and think it was Baal!"

Yes, it is a huge problem. Saving a life or lives through apparent supernatural means has the potential to set back scientific discovery. This could lead to the deaths or compromised health of many, many other innocent people. In Jesus' time, the primitive cultures of the world were very superstitious. The body of scientific medical knowledge was very limited.
It is God's desire that scientific discovery continue to evolve on our world. It is our destiny to continue this evolution of life and knowledge.

Rodan6 said:

Yes, it is a huge problem. Saving a life or lives through apparent supernatural means has the potential to set back scientific discovery. This could lead to the deaths or compromised health of many, many other innocent people. In Jesus' time, the primitive cultures of the world were very superstitious. The body of scientific medical knowledge was very limited.
It is God's desire that scientific discovery continue to evolve on our world. It is our destiny to continue this evolution of life and knowledge.

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First of all - who told you that it is God's desire for scientific discovery to evolve on our world? Where did you get that from?

Imagine if cancer, or other serious illnesses, vanished every time a priest or other Christian cleric prayed. I'm having trouble seeing how this could lead to the deaths or compromised health of many innocent people. Rather the other way, one would think.

And yes, it might indeed cause some interesting repercussions in science. But it would also lead to mass conversions towards Christianity, and a concomitant increase in souls being saved, which would seem to be something that God would like. Don't tell me that if an actual bona-fide miracle was worked Christians would hush it up in order to safeguard the scientific revolution, because we both know that would be nonsense.

No - as I said, what you are saying seems to be nothing but an ad hoc rationalisation.

Rodan6 said:

When Jesus healed someone 2000 years ago, there was little chance that the healing would compromise the medical science of that day. A similar healing today would have the potential to do great harm. Professionals in the medical field could be led astray, believing a certain course of therapy was successful when it was not. This doesn't mean that "miracles" don't happen in our modern age, but it does mean that the choice to perform one is a far more complex decision than it once was.

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Problem is, when Jesus healed someone 2000 years ago, it was fairly obvious that his work was miraculous, not medical. No course of therapy is going to grow back a limb, or raise someone four days dead... Professionals in the medical field are going to know something happened that's above their pay grade.

InterestedAtheist said:

No - as I said, what you are saying seems to be nothing but an ad hoc rationalisation.

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...and not a Biblically consistent one... we're talking about the same God who sabotaged the Tower of Babel because the humans were getting too uppity...

True Counterphobia said:

While I agree with the sentiment, the point of the Tower of Babel was that humans were getting quite arrogant about their own abilities.

1 Corinthians 1:19 "For it is written,
'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.'"

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It's not arrogance if you can back it up -- and God certainly seemed concerned that they could.

Genesis 11:6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them."

...and He couldn't have that.