What did Jesus mean when He prayed that we would be one in John 17:21?

HenSoma-OneBody said:

Amen, so where should I go? There are so many churches in my town alone. Why, if there is only one "Church?"

Click to expand...

That is why I say read the bible. Let the Holy Ghost be your teacher. Don't trust a man to teach you. It is okay to go to church for fellowship. But I would put every word you hear or learn on a shelf in your mind. Until the Holy Ghost confirms it in your heart, those words can stay there.

Jesus's will for us was, and still is, that we all be one in our beliefs, because truth cannot conflict with truth, and conflicting beliefs therefore always mean untruth. Which is why He prayed "Father, that they all may be one, even as you Father and I are one" - meaning no conflicting beliefs, no manmade denominations, only the one Church He founded, to which He promised "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". And that one Church, the Catholic Church, brought all Christians the fullness of God's truth for the next 1,000 years, at which point the Orthodox churches defected from His Church, the first fracture in Christianity. But total chaos didn't begin for another 500 years, when one proud man thought he could do better job of founding a Church than Jesus did. So he defected from God's Church and founded a new church, supposedly based on "the Bible alone", which of course meant his own personal interpretations of the Bible. Before Luther died there were already half a dozen other denominations that had broken away from his church because they didn't agree with his teaching. Now, a few hundred years later, there are over 6,000 Protestant denominations, each claiming to follow "the Bible alone", yet the teaching of each one contradicting the teaching of the others.

PaulCyp1 said:

Jesus's will for us was, and still is, that we all be one in our beliefs, because truth cannot conflict with truth, and conflicting beliefs therefore always mean untruth. Which is why He prayed "Father, that they all may be one, even as you Father and I are one" - meaning no conflicting beliefs, no manmade denominations, only the one Church He founded, to which He promised "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". And that one Church, the Catholic Church, brought all Christians the fullness of God's truth for the next 1,000 years, at which point the Orthodox churches defected from His Church, the first fracture in Christianity. But total chaos didn't begin for another 500 years, when
one proud man thought he could do better job of founding a Church than Jesus did.

Click to expand...

It was not Luther's intention to "found a Church." It was his intention for the authorities to see that salvation by meritorious works was clearly contrary to Paul in the NT. They were not interested, and so Luther, a Catholic monk, had no choice but to remain true to his conscience before God.

Actually, it was the "authoritative" wrong understanding that salvation/justification requires meritorious works
which is responsible for "total chaos."

So he defected from God's Church and founded a new church, supposedly based on "the Bible alone",
which of course meant his own personal interpretations of the Bible.

Click to expand...

Are you sure about that?

Whose interpretation is Before Luther died there were already half a dozen other denominations that had broken away from his church because they didn't agree with his teaching. Now, a few hundred years later, there are over 6,000 Protestant denominations, each claiming to follow "the Bible alone", yet the teaching of each one contradicting the teaching of the others.

Click to expand...

But then the Catholic Church never has believed in salvation by works.
Necessary does not mean sufficient.

You still have not tackled the fundamental question.
History shows Sola scriptura has caused all the splits.

That is well qualified scholars disagreeing on the meaning of scripture therefore concluding different doctrines, which are mutually exclusive.
The splits occur over doctrine, each side claim8ng they discerned the spirit, so that does not work. Yet there can only be one true doctrine.

It is fascinating that many of the groups who claim succession from Luther drifted so far they believe massively different doctrines from Luther himself and worse, massively different from the first Millenium and first Christians , and massively different from the fathers in council who decided the New Testament and creed. Massively different from anasthasius Augustine, aquinas. ( all of whom were united bar fine detail )

Why so if scripture can stand alone? sola scriptura is the problem. It is neither biblically , historically or even logically justifiable. Different Opinions on meaning of scripture cause and have caused all the splits. The lack of authority to take definitive judgement.

at a personal level those who want to believe different doctrines from the early church have to decide why they are right and thousands of very well qualified theologians , even disciples of the apostles, are wrong. To think that is a bold place to be!

Clare73 said:

It was not Luther's intention to "found a Church." It was his intention for the authorities to see that salvation by meritorious works was clearly contrary to Paul in the NT. They were not interested, and so Luther, a Catholic monk, had no choice but to remain true to his conscience before God.

Actually, it was the "authoritative" wrong understanding that salvation/justification requires meritorious works
which is responsible for "total chaos."
Are you sure about that?

Click to expand...

Mountainmike said:

But then the Catholic Church never has believed in salvation by works.
Necessary does not mean sufficient.

You still have not tackled the fundamental question.
History shows Sola scriptura has caused all the splits.

Click to expand...

You're assuming what is to be proven: the cause of the split.

Authoritative wrong doctrine on justification caused the split.

That is well qualified scholars disagreeing on the meaning of scripture therefore concluding different doctrines, which are mutually exclusive.
The splits occur over doctrine, each side claim8ng they discerned the spirit, so that does not work. Yet there can only be one true doctrine.

Click to expand...

It's not about discernment. . .it's about linguistics--the plain language of the texts.

It is fascinating that many of the groups who claim succession from Luther drifted so far they believe massively different doctrines from Luther himself and worse, massively different from the first Millenium and first Christians , and massively different from the fathers in council who decided the New Testament and creed. Massively different from anasthasius Augustine, aquinas. ( all of whom were united bar fine detail

Click to expand...

And all because of authoritative wrong doctrine on justification which, had it been addressed, would have avoided a split.

Why so if scripture can stand alone? sola scriptura is the problem. It is neither biblically , historically or even logically justifiable. Different Opinions on meaning of scripture cause and have caused all the splits. The lack of authority to take definitive judgement.

Click to expand...

Which history has demonstrated does not guarantee correct understanding.

at a personal level you have to decide why you are right and thousands of very well qualified theologians , even disciples of the apostles, are wrong. To think that is a bold place to be!

Click to expand...

To be in disagreement with Paul on justification without meritorious works is to be anathema with Paul (Gal 1:6-9).

Not “ the split”

The thread is about the endless splitting of post reformation churches so resulting in massively different doctrines amongst them. Some Pentecostals don’t even believe in the trinity, they assert modalism: a doctrine deemed heresy in early church. . Almost all can be traced to different opinions of meaning of scripture resulting in different doctrines resulting in further splits.

Sola scriptura is the cause. Losing the anchor.

Clare73 said:

You're assuming what is to be proven: the cause of the split.

Authoritative wrong doctrine on justification caused the split.

It's not about discernment. . .it's about the plain language of the texts.
And all because of authoritative wrong doctrine on justification, had it been addressed would have avoided a split.

To be in disagreement with Paul on justification without meritorious works is to be anathema with Paul (Gal 1:6-9).

Click to expand...

Clare73 said:

Are you sure? The following shows Scripture to be authoritative to teach, etc.:

2Tim 3:16 - "All Scripture is God-breathed (theo pneustos) and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

"--and the Scripture cannot be broken--" (Jn 10:35)

Assigning authority over Scripture causes as much grievous error and damage as does anything else.
Are you familiar with its history of salvation by meritorious works, which is contrary to Paul in every way?

Click to expand...

In both cases the "Scripture" being discussed would be the Old Testament, likely the Septuagint Version. When these words were penned the New Testament was in the beginning of its formation.

Be that as it may, teaching is a far cry difference from authoritative. For that matter neither is rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness authoritative. It is best described as charity, because clarity of the Word of God is charity.

The New Testament was written by the Apostles for the authority of the Church.


Scripture, tradition and the Church co-exist and are co-authoritative. Without the Catholic Church to validate Scripture, Scripture loses authority to teach faith and morals. Scripture can never stand alone as the single and only source of God's word, as the sole purveyor of faith and morals. This freezes faith to a first century understanding which become unable to cope and grow with the current era. Simply, Sacred Scripture never makes the claim that it and it alone is the sole authority of faith. Scripture relies on the Church for its authentication. Equally important Sacred Scripture when defined as "the sole source" of God's words precludes miracles, prophecy, Church, and the doctrines of the ECFs. We know this not to be the case because the great and small saints of the Church are 'prophets of God'. Equally important is the Apostles weren't given a BOOK to worship, they were given a Kingdom to mend the fruits of His nation. It's within this Church that we find the Catholic Tradition the means of canonization (authentication) of Scripture. Our salvation would be ill advised to stop even at Tradition, rather we find 'Church' to be a part of a sole and infallible rule of faith. So we find the Apostles as authoritative witnesses wrote the Scriptures for the authority of the Church.

It is only in the Church that we hear the divine word taught divinely. I'll repeat, neither the bible, the Holy Spirit nor the Apostles would have infused "authority" in a BOOK. Had they done so, God's word would be mute once the Book is closed. If it did indeed have authority of this type, then every word, every phrase, every sentence would have been a clear as daylight and we could find (or not) our name in the list of saints.

Do you worship a book?

JoeT

HenSoma-OneBody said:

Jesus prayed, "That all of them (His disciples) may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one—I in them and You in Me—that they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them just as You have loved Me." John 17:21-23

With the thousands of differing doctrines and countless denominational entities it is difficult to understand how this was ever part of Jesus' plan or design for His Church. If this is true, why are there so many who are okay with the divisions and divisiveness between those who claim to be in Christ?

Click to expand...

In our Lord's High Priestly Prayer He prays, in the immediate context, for the unity of His Apostles--but He extends this beyond them, to all who would believe on account of the apostolic word from Christ. And so, indeed, the prayer is about the unity of the Church and all the Faithful.

The unity of the Church is to be a mirror reflection of the intimacy and unity between the Father and the Son; indeed the intimate and divine communion of the three Persons of the Trinity, one God. So, as St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 10, that we though many are nevertheless one loaf, so we share of the one loaf--the very body of Christ in the Eucharist; by which the unity of the Mystical Body--the Church--is expressed and in a sense constituted (by grace, by the Holy Spirit).

And so, it is very much the case that there isn't unity among the Faithful today--and this is indeed tragedy. Our Lord never desired the schisms that have occurred down through history.

And yes, how we are to deal and address this matter is serious, without any quick or easy answers.

What is fruitful, however, is that we extend to one another love and charity as brothers and sisters in the Lord. While compromise on matters of serious theology should be avoided (it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience); we must still be a people of charitable compassion and grace toward one another, and indeed, toward all men regardless of whether or not they believe.

-CryptoLutheran

Mountainmike said:

Not “ the split”

The thread is about the endless splitting of post reformation churches so resulting in massively different doctrines amongst them. Some Pentecostals don’t even believe in the trinity, they assert modalism: a doctrine deemed heresy in early church. . Almost all can be traced to different opinions of meaning of scripture resulting in different doctrines resulting in further splits.

Sola scriptura is the cause. Losing the anchor.

Click to expand...

Well, God is the author of history. There would be no Reformation if it were not in his plan.
So I think it is his plan, to reform the error of his NT people, as he reformed the error of his OT people in/after the exile.

And in spite of all the splits, the wheat is still the wheat, and the tares are still the tares, and all those tares
are for the purpose of testing whether faith is true or not.

His sheep know his voice, and he does not lose them.

Clare73 said:

So Jesus was praying for the eleven, right?

Click to expand...

For the twelve (or eleven as history would unfolds), but more particularly for the Church which the Twelve represented.

You think Jesus was interceding for the Son of Perdition in Jn 17:6-19, when he explicitly excluded him in v. 12?

Click to expand...

Probably, see Psalms 108

Jesus' High Priestly prayer (Jn 17) before offering the once-for-all Atoning Sacrifice followed the same order as the High Priestly prayer on the Day of Atonement: he made intercession
1) first, for himself and his household (Jn 17:1-19; Lev 16:3, 6, 11; Heb 7:27, 9:7, 12), and
2) then for the people (Jn 17:20-26; Lev 16:15, 17).

Click to expand...

He prays for the Apostles given Him by God [Cf. John 17:9] He prays they should be kept out of the world [John 17:15] and taught by the Words of Christ He prays they may be filled with joy [Cf. John 17:13]. He prays for those for the Apostles to be one, i.e. the Church, [John 17:11]. He then prays for those who are in the Apostolic Church. [John 17:20]. It is the Church in the persons of the Apostles and the Body of Christ that He prays will continue as one, "through their [the Apostles] word shall believe in me" [John 17:20].

What does that say for protesters, they don't seem to follow their Book.

Even the High Priest of the Jews wouldn't be so bold as to say "glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee." [John 17:5].

Those words (saved, reborn) are the definition of "those who believe;" i.e., the Church, for whom he is specifically praying (Jn 17:20-21).

Click to expand...

vs 20 we've discussed
vs 21 Christ prays that his disciples be one
vs 22 Christ gives the Apostles and the disciples the power of miracles.
vs 23 Christ prays that the Apostles be perfect in unity.
vs 24 Christ prays that those given Him by God will remain as one with Him.
vs 25 Christ says the world did not known God, however He knows God and the Apostles know God.

Consequently, those that "believe" do so through the Apostles' and their successors as one with the Church. Not one outside the church reading BOOK alone in darkness.

Why do you want God's people in the NT Church excluded from Jesus' prayer?

Click to expand...

I don't wish any such thing. But, God's people are a definable Church.

JoeT

Strong in Him said:

Are you saying that the church is above, and has more authority than, Scripture??
Not a chance.

Click to expand...

I am not saying the Church is authoritatively above Scripture. I'm saying that the Sacred Scripture were inspired by the Holy Spirit for the Authority of the Apostles and the Church. It is them that have the power to bind and loose, it is them that is given the authority to teach and Baptize. [Cd. Matthew 18:18; 28: 16-20]

JoeT

JoeT said:

For the twelve (or eleven as history would unfolds), but more particularly for the Church which the Twelve represented.
Probably, see Psalms 108
He prays for the Apostles given Him by God [Cf. John 17:9] He prays they should be kept out of the world [John 17:15] and taught by the Words of Christ He prays they may be filled with joy [Cf. John 17:13]. He prays for those for the Apostles to be one, i.e. the Church, [John 17:11]. He then prays for those who are in the Apostolic Church. [John 17:20].

Click to expand...

It is the Church in the persons of the Apostles and the Body of Christ that He prays will continue as one,
"through their [the Apostles] word shall believe in me" [John 17:20].
and the Apostles know God.
I don't wish any such thing. But, God's people are a definable Church.

Click to expand...

Yes, they are those who believe in me (the Promise), both OT and NT saints, which goes all the way back to Abraham (Gal 3:16, 29).

Mountainmike said:

Authority is the "power to bind and loose" which is the phrase that meant "give authoratitive judgement" given to apostolic succession, and is the power Jesus handed to councils, to settle disputes on doctrine. Many heresies were outlawed , for example the arian heresy by the council of Nicea. Authority is not new. Jesus told all to listen to the pharisees when speaking from moses seat.

That is why the church is called "the foundation of truth" in scripture. The household of God, a physical church.

Click to expand...

Yet Jesus said the foundation His church would be built upon would be truth from the Father and not the ideas of man. Ideas of man that lead to traditions whiuch become gosple truth centuries down the road simply because they are tradition and not necessarily truth. When truth turns from the teachings of God to the doctrines of a religion we have a problem, especially when the religion abandons the Kingdom to build worldly kingdoms of it's own.
What most people defend today is a religion or denomination rather than the teachings of Jesus. That of course was the result of a church which set down rules to proclaim itself authourity over others, kinda like how CF establishes certain rules to keep things within their agenda. It us easy to call anyone who does not agree a heretic simply because heretic means an alternative view.

zoidar said:

I see nothing wrong with attending different churches, yet it's good to have a base, a home church for the sake of fellowship. It can take some time to find the right church.

Click to expand...

Providing that church is not right simply because of like mindedness.

Clare73 said:

Yes, they are those who believe in me (the Promise), both OT and NT saints, which goes all the way back to Abraham (Gal 3:16, 29).

Click to expand...

To believe is to have the same faith and have unity with the Apostles and their successors. Else, it is simply wishful thinking, unreal.

Joet

Strong in Him said:

I think he is ok with us worshipping in different ways - we are all different after all. But to let different interpretations of Scripture, and different ideas separate us from each other, to the point of argument and animosity must be heart breaking for him.

Click to expand...

God confounded speech at Babel for the same reason He will not allow any one church to hold superiority or claim to ultimate truth. Man cannot hold that type of power without eventually reverting to self interest and gain.

Strong in Him said:

The devil will not destroy the church from the outside - persecution has always made us stronger and caused the church to grow. But he doesn't need to; he is doing a pretty good job of destroying it from within.

Click to expand...

That should have been, but is still not obvious to the masses, when the church blindsided Jesus and a Kingdom it was to promote, to instead rejoin the world of man and abandon the counter-culture of Jesus for the power and glory the world would afford. 1700 years of tradition has kept that treason alive.

JoeT said:

To believe is to have the same faith and have unity with the Apostles and their successors. Else, it is simply wishful thinking, unreal.

Joet

Click to expand...

Not in the NT.

Saving faith is always and only in reference to Jesus Christ and his atoning work for the remission of sin.

Are you beginning to see the error Luther had a problem with?
.

Neostarwcc said:

Gods desire of our oneness is for his very sheep to be one with each other.

Click to expand...

Of one accord with the Gospel of the Kingdom and in agreement that the will of God supersedes and will replace the will of man, His will which states we must love all as self.

JoeT said:

Quite the contrary, the Church has explicit authority. [Cf. Matthew 18:18].

Click to expand...

Providing that church is the one Jesus spoke of whose foundation was the truth from the Father and not the ideas and agendas of man.

Neostarwcc said:

Every child of Abraham is a part of God's sheep.

Click to expand...

Yet some sheep think they can lord it over others, forgetting that it is actually a border collie who leads them. Sheep, be they God's or the woolie variety, tend to get too full of themselves.