Rightly dividing the word of truth: where the OT and NT dividing line is...

Clare73 · Feb 15, 2021

Dan Perez said:
Hi and what I see , that the division is between Israel and the BODY OF CHRIST !
And that division begins at ACTS 9:6 where Saul was saved. The verses are in 1 Tim 1:15 where it says ,
that Jesus came into the world to save sinners , of whom I AM PROTO / FIRST !
Also in verse 16 , THAT IN ME [ PROTO / FIRST show forth all long suffering for a PATTERN OF THE ONES COMING TO BELIEVE ON HIM UNTO EVERLASTING LIFE >
This is where the BODY OF CHRIST BEGAN .

dan p

The Church, the body of Christ, began with Abraham. The promises were spoken only to Abraham and Christ, his seed (Gal 3:16).
If you are in Christ, you are Abraham's seed (Gal 3:29).

Clare73 · Feb 15, 2021

Soyeong said:
Jesus did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching by word or by example, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Hebrews 8:10).

Jesus abolished the law with it commandments and regulations on the cross. (Eph 2:14-15.)
And Jesus gave a new commandment which replaces the Decalogue (Mt 22:37-40; Ro 13:8-10)

Being a Christian is about looking at what Christ taught by word and by example and deciding to become his follower, not about refusing to follow what Christ taught.

Being a Christian is first and foremost believing in and trusting on the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sin. (Ro 3:22-25).
Without that, no matter how much you "follow" Christ, you are not a Biblical Christian.

You keep trying to establish justification/salvation apart from faith in and trust on the person and work of Jesus Christ.
You've said faith in God is faith in Christ.
You've said faith in the law is faith in God which is faith in Christ.
Anything and everything but faith in and trust on the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin.

According to you, those who reject Jesus Christ can still be justified/saved.
What's with this denial of NT justification/salvation only by faith in Jesus Christ?

In 1 Peter 2:21-22, we are told to follow Christ's example, in 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, and in 1 Corinthians 11:1, we are to be imitators of Paul as he was an imitator of Christ. Furthermore, John 12:46-50 does not give us any room to reject any of the words that Jesus taught during his ministry. In Matthew 24:14, Jesus prophecies that the Gospel that he had been teaching during his ministry would be proclaimed to all nations, and he commissioned his disciples to teach everything that he had commanded them.

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that justice, mercy, and faith are weightier matters of the Mosaic Law. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, so that is what being under grace looks like. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. Likewise, in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey His laws for how to do that is itself part of the content of His gift of salvation. In Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth and rightly dividing the word of truth does not involve hacking it to pieces and removing the truth.

About 1/3 of the verses in the NT contain quotes or allusions to the OT, which the NT authors did thousands of times in order to show that it supported what they were saying and to show that it supported what they were saying, so they certainly saw the OT as still being authoritative.

The New Covenant is the new order (Heb 9:10), the Old Covenant is the old order, which is obsolete (Heb 8:13).
The NT authors saw the OT as authoritative only as it reveals and establishes the NT.

Soyeong · Feb 15, 2021

A.ModerateOne said:
What is a Judaizer?

"But when I saw that they did not walk uprightly with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before all, If you being a Jew, live heathen-like, and not as the Jews, why do you compel the nations to Judaize?" (Gal 2:14 LITV)
"But when I saw that their conduct did not square with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of the whole congregation, ‘If you, a Jew born and bred, live like a Gentile, and not like a Jew, how can you insist that Gentiles must live like Jews?'" (Gal 2:14 REB)

Again, in Acts 10:28, Peter referred to a Jewish law that forbade Jews from visiting or associating with Gentiles and it was this law that he was obeying in Galatians 2:11-16 when he stopped visiting or associating with the Gentiles, which is why Paul called him out for it, but you are mistaking what was only said against obeying a man-made law as being against obeying God's law as if obedience to God were somehow a negative thing.

God's law, commonly called moral law, or the substance of the Ten Commandments existed and can be seen all through the book of Genesis, before Moses and Mosaic Law existed; therefore sin existed as did death prior to Moses! A very good online article, giving the texts is available:
Ten Commandments in Genesis & Job

In Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Moses wrote down everything that he commanded him without departing from it, so all of the Mosaic Law is God's law. Likewise, the Mosaic Law is referred to as God's law in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:22-23. Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of the Mosaic Laws are inherently moral laws, and there are no examples in the Bible of disobedience to any of them being considered to be moral, nor do I see any justification for thinking that it can ever be moral to disobey God. Many of the Mosaic Laws that weren't part of the Ten Commandments were followed throughout Genesis before the Mosaic Law was given, and in fact all of the Mosaic Laws are eternal moral laws that have always existed prior to when they were given to Moses (Psalms 119:160).

The existence if sin requires there to be a standard of what is and is not sin, and that standard is God's eternal nature, which has been revealed through all of the laws that he has given. In Genesis 4:7, God told Cain that sin was crouching at the door and that he must master it, which implies that he already knew what sin is and that he must have given laws in that regard, so again the Mosaic Law has always existed.

The Law of Moses, Mosaic Law had a specific start date and it was given to Israel alone, NOT to the nations, the Gentiles; yet reading Job we know God's law and righteous men existed prior to Moses:

"What great nation is there whose statutes and laws are so just, as is all this code of laws which I am setting before you today?" (Deut 4:8 REB)
"These are the commandments which the Lord gave to Moses on Mount Sinai for the Israelites." (Lev 27:34 REB)

In Exodus 12:38, there was a mixed multitude that went up out of Egypt with them, and in John 8:33, Israel was inclusive of both the foreigner and the native born, so Gentiles have always been included in Israel. And while the law was only given to Israel, it was given to Israel for the purpose of equipping them to be a light and a blessing to the nations through teaching the nations to obey it (Deuteronomy 4:5-8, Isaiah 2:2-3, Isaiah 49:6)

Moses prophesied of a coming prophet and to Him were the people to hear and heed:

"The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; it is to him you must listen. All this follows from your request to the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly. There you said, ‘Let us not hear again the voice of the Lord our God, nor see this great fire again, or we shall die.’ Then the Lord said to me, ‘What they have said is right. I shall raise up for them a prophet like you, one of their own people, and I shall put my words into his mouth. He will declare to them whatever I command him; if anyone refuses to listen to the words which he will speak in my name I shall call that person to account." (Deut 18:15-19 REB)

The same Father who gave the law to Moses also sent Jesus, who set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to it, so there is no discrepancy between what they taught. In John 5:46-47, Jesus said that if they believed Moses, then they would believe him because Moses wrote about him, but if they do not believe his writings, then how can they believe his words? So we can't believe the words of Jesus without also believing the writings of Moses.

The Mosaic Law, the Law of Moses for the Old Covenant people lasted until the seed came, who is the Christ:

"Then what of the law? It was added to make wrongdoing a legal offence; it was an interim measure pending the arrival of the ‘issue’ to whom the promise was made. It was promulgated through angels, and there was an intermediary;" (Gal 3:19 REB)
"Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring would come to whom the promise had been made; and it was ordained through angels by a mediator." (Gal 3:19 NRSV)

In speaking of “a new covenant,” he has made the first one obsolete. And what is obsolete and growing old will soon disappear. (Heb 8:13 NRSV)

All of the worldly reasoning and Scripture twisting cannot refute the clear statements of God's word!

Jesus did spend his ministry telling people that the Mosaic Law had ended and that they needed to stop repenting, but just the opposite, so Galatians 3:19 should not be interpreted in a way that undermines everything that Jesus accomplished through his ministry and through the cross. In Hebrews 8:10, the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law, so while the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete, God's eternal law did not become obsolete along with it. Eternal laws or how to testify about God's eternal nature can't be ended without first ending God.

JohnD70X7 · Feb 16, 2021

Soyeong said:
Repent from our sins.

Nope. ...from unbelief in him. From the Old Covenant Law to the New Covenant Grace BY that belief in him.

Mark 1:15 (AV)
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Acts 3:19 (AV)
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Sinner repent! ← is from an old Star Trek original TV series script: "The Naked Time."

Ceallaigh · Feb 16, 2021

Ceallaigh · Feb 16, 2021

Soyeong said:
In Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the entire law.

That's all that really needs to be said about obeying the law then.

Also those who emphasize obedience usually add the disclaimer that total obedience is humanly impossible, so we really only need to have the desire to obey.

And then of course that desire is placed in us by the Holy Spirit. And that is an ongoing process that takes shape over time.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 16, 2021

JohnD70X7 said:
Hebrews 9:16–17 (AV)
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Jesus is obviously Testator of the New Testament. So the dividing line between Old and New Testaments is not at the end of Malachi 4 and the beginning of Matthew 1.

Rather, it is interlaced in the Gospels at Matthew 27:50, Mark 15:37, Luke 23:46, and John 19:30.

So what?

So everything in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are under Old Testament Law prior to those scriptures.

The Sermon on the Mount was not taught to compel Christians to live stricter lives than the Pharisees, for example. Cutting off or gouging out body parts to keep out of hell comes to mind. Forgiving everyone so our Heavenly Father will forgive us. These are works under the Law and not mercy under Grace.

Rightly dividing the word of truth in this way removes the confusion:

is it Grace alone (Ephesians 2:8-10)?

or is it works (Matthew 5:27-30 / Matthew 6:14-15 / Mark 11:26)?

is it New Testament to tithe (Matthew 23:23 / Luke 11:42 / Luke 18:12)?

or according to your abundance / cheerful heart giving (2 Corinthians 8:10 -15 / 2 Corinthians 9:7)?

Footnote: It would be wrong not to support a ministry financially that you benefit from frequently (Bible study, prayer service, praise and worship service, child care, etc.). But at the same time we should not substitute these things for our own ministries which we are called to as all believers are priests of God (Revelation 1:6 / Revelation 5:10 / 1 Peter 2:3-9). Not all in Christ are called to preach, and the local congregational meetings are to supplement our own ministries... NOT replace them. So we should consider our own ministries worthy of our support... as well as giving to the local Church.

The New Testament officially began with Christ's death upon the cross. The temple veil was torn from top to bottom. Unfortunately, some Christians think today we we have to keep certain ceremonial laws (like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, etc.) so as to be justified before God. This is wrong.

When looking at the Old Law one can categorize the Old Testament Mosaic Law (the 613 Laws of Moses) into a threefold division:

Moral Laws (Any Law pertaining to doing good as a part of nature).
Ceremonial Laws (Laws pertaining to ceremonies or rituals).
Civil Laws (Laws dealing with civil matters; Which includes Laws on carrying out justice).

Even before the written Law of Moses: We can see that there were Moral Laws (like: “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” Do not covet,” “Do not commit adultery,” etc.), and Ceremonial Laws (like: animal sacrifices).

God's moral laws came into existence for man and would forever exist for him after the Fall of Adam and Eve (after they received the knowledge of good and evil). A Moral Law is any law telling you to do good without a specific law telling you that such a thing is so (See Romans 2:14). These moral laws existed before the Law of Moses.

In the New Covenant (or New Testament) these Moral Laws (like: “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” Do not covet,” “Do not commit adultery,” etc.) are repeated from the 613 laws within the Law of Moses and they still are in effect (i.e. They have been carried over into the New Testament). However, the Old Testament Law of Moses as a whole or package deal is no more (contractually speaking). Ceremonial Laws or commands: Things like the commands on circumcision, animal sacrifices, the Saturday Sabbath, dietary etc. are no longer binding under the New Covenant. Civil laws in carrying out justice (like stoning others for breaking God's laws) has also ended. This is because the written Law given to Israel is no longer in effect (as a whole). How so?

Here are a list of verses showing us the Old Law is no more:

"When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).

”Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.” (Romans 7:4).

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).

20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
(Colossians 2:20-23).

“By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).

"The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).

9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).

16 “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17).

”And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament…” (Hebrews 9:15).

27 “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28).

50 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; “ (Matthew 27:20-51).

8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).

7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).

“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 3:14).

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:

"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).

The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17).

However, what you will not find is an end to God's moral laws in the New Testament (i.e. New Covenant). Nowhere does the New Testament teach you can refuse to love God and refuse to love others and still be saved. Nowhere does the New Testament teach that you can murder, rape, steal, hate, indulge in inappropriate content, and or living a life with prostitutes and still be saved.

In conclusion:

You sort of have to look at the Old Covenant (Old Testament) as one contract, and the New Covenant (New Testament) as another contract. It's kind of like a contract when you buy a house. If you did not like certain things in the contract, you could ask them to make some changes in the contract. If they agreed to the changes, you would then go by the new contract, and the old contract for the house would be discarded. There may be some similar things between the old contract, and the new contract, but you stick with the new contract in your dealing with buying the house. Meaning: This is why we seek to follow the New Covenant (New Testament) primarily even though there are certain laws that have carried over from the Old Covenant (Old Testament). We are clearly not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or package deal. We follow the commands that come from Jesus and His followers.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 16, 2021

JohnD70X7 said:
Hebrews 9:16–17 (AV)
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Jesus is obviously Testator of the New Testament. So the dividing line between Old and New Testaments is not at the end of Malachi 4 and the beginning of Matthew 1.

Rather, it is interlaced in the Gospels at Matthew 27:50, Mark 15:37, Luke 23:46, and John 19:30.

So what?

So everything in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are under Old Testament Law prior to those scriptures.

The Sermon on the Mount was not taught to compel Christians to live stricter lives than the Pharisees, for example. Cutting off or gouging out body parts to keep out of hell comes to mind. Forgiving everyone so our Heavenly Father will forgive us. These are works under the Law and not mercy under Grace.

Rightly dividing the word of truth in this way removes the confusion:

is it Grace alone (Ephesians 2:8-10)?

or is it works (Matthew 5:27-30 / Matthew 6:14-15 / Mark 11:26)?

is it New Testament to tithe (Matthew 23:23 / Luke 11:42 / Luke 18:12)?

or according to your abundance / cheerful heart giving (2 Corinthians 8:10 -15 / 2 Corinthians 9:7)?

Footnote: It would be wrong not to support a ministry financially that you benefit from frequently (Bible study, prayer service, praise and worship service, child care, etc.). But at the same time we should not substitute these things for our own ministries which we are called to as all believers are priests of God (Revelation 1:6 / Revelation 5:10 / 1 Peter 2:3-9). Not all in Christ are called to preach, and the local congregational meetings are to supplement our own ministries... NOT replace them. So we should consider our own ministries worthy of our support... as well as giving to the local Church.

Believers are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace (i.e. Jesus Christ). It is why a person who comes to Jesus for the first time can have an assurance of salvation (Without doing any kind of work). Initial and ultimate salvation is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are not ultimately saved by works of righteousness we have done alone without God's mercy (Titus 3:5). For even if a believer were to stumble into sin, do they get clean by doing another work? No. They get clean by confessing their sins to Jesus (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) and they ask Jesus to help them to overcome their sin (or to forsake it) (Matthew 26:41) (Romans 13:14) (John 15:5). But I believe Paul was arguing against “Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism by the Law of Moses” (that did not include God's grace through faith in Christ). Yes, things like tithing have ended (2 Corinthians 9:7). Yes, things like John's water baptism have ended (Note: It took time for Peter and the other Jewish apostles to figure this out - long after Pentescost) (See: 1 Corinthians 1:17, Acts of the Apostles 1:5, Hebrews 9:11, Acts of the Apostles 19:1-7). Yes, we can eat unclean animals (1 Timothy 4:4-5). But while there is a liberty in Christ from obeying many aspects of the Old Law, Christians do not turn God's grace into a license for immorality of which Jude 1:4 warns us about.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 16, 2021

JohnD70X7 said:
Hebrews 9:16–17 (AV)
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Jesus is obviously Testator of the New Testament. So the dividing line between Old and New Testaments is not at the end of Malachi 4 and the beginning of Matthew 1.

Rather, it is interlaced in the Gospels at Matthew 27:50, Mark 15:37, Luke 23:46, and John 19:30.

So what?

So everything in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are under Old Testament Law prior to those scriptures.

The Sermon on the Mount was not taught to compel Christians to live stricter lives than the Pharisees, for example. Cutting off or gouging out body parts to keep out of hell comes to mind. Forgiving everyone so our Heavenly Father will forgive us. These are works under the Law and not mercy under Grace.

Rightly dividing the word of truth in this way removes the confusion:

is it Grace alone (Ephesians 2:8-10)?

or is it works (Matthew 5:27-30 / Matthew 6:14-15 / Mark 11:26)?

is it New Testament to tithe (Matthew 23:23 / Luke 11:42 / Luke 18:12)?

or according to your abundance / cheerful heart giving (2 Corinthians 8:10 -15 / 2 Corinthians 9:7)?

Footnote: It would be wrong not to support a ministry financially that you benefit from frequently (Bible study, prayer service, praise and worship service, child care, etc.). But at the same time we should not substitute these things for our own ministries which we are called to as all believers are priests of God (Revelation 1:6 / Revelation 5:10 / 1 Peter 2:3-9). Not all in Christ are called to preach, and the local congregational meetings are to supplement our own ministries... NOT replace them. So we should consider our own ministries worthy of our support... as well as giving to the local Church.

#1. The Bible teaches that there is a change of the Law (Hebrews 7:12); So when Paul talks about the "Law" (generically), he is referring to the Torah, i.e. the Old Law (or the many laws given to Moses and Israel) and not the commandments given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers (i.e. the New Law or New Testament Law). All one has to do is look at the context to see that Paul was referring to the "Old Law" when he spoke generically of the "law."

#2. Paul was fighting against what I would call, "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers. In other words, if a person thought that circumcision is the first thing you had to do in order to be saved, then they would be making the Law of Moses (or Works Alone or the Law Alone) as the basis of their salvation and it would not be making Jesus Christ the foundation of their salvation. It would ultimately be a work and not grace that got them saved. Believers are intially and foundationally saved by God's grace or mercy (Ephesians 2:8-9) and by believing that Christ died for their sins, and he was buried, and He was risen three days later on their behalf for salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). But the gospel also calls us. Think of it like a phone that rings that has the words “gospel” written on that phone. We see this gospel call in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14. So when a person picks up the gospel phone that is ringing (calling), they will hear a voice on the other line telling them this.... “God has chosen to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit, and a belief of the truth.” Sanctification is in context to the Holy Spirit working in us to help us to live a holy life. This is clearly the context if you were to look at the verses proceeding it and after it. So while the gospel is not holy living, it does call us to abide in the Spirit and to walk in the Spirit. For Titus 2:11-12 tells us that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.

JohnD70X7 · Feb 16, 2021

Bible Highlighter · Feb 16, 2021

JohnD70X7 said:
Hebrews 9:16–17 (AV)
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Jesus is obviously Testator of the New Testament. So the dividing line between Old and New Testaments is not at the end of Malachi 4 and the beginning of Matthew 1.

Rather, it is interlaced in the Gospels at Matthew 27:50, Mark 15:37, Luke 23:46, and John 19:30.

So what?

So everything in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are under Old Testament Law prior to those scriptures.

The Sermon on the Mount was not taught to compel Christians to live stricter lives than the Pharisees, for example. Cutting off or gouging out body parts to keep out of hell comes to mind. Forgiving everyone so our Heavenly Father will forgive us. These are works under the Law and not mercy under Grace.

Rightly dividing the word of truth in this way removes the confusion:

is it Grace alone (Ephesians 2:8-10)?

or is it works (Matthew 5:27-30 / Matthew 6:14-15 / Mark 11:26)?

is it New Testament to tithe (Matthew 23:23 / Luke 11:42 / Luke 18:12)?

or according to your abundance / cheerful heart giving (2 Corinthians 8:10 -15 / 2 Corinthians 9:7)?

Footnote: It would be wrong not to support a ministry financially that you benefit from frequently (Bible study, prayer service, praise and worship service, child care, etc.). But at the same time we should not substitute these things for our own ministries which we are called to as all believers are priests of God (Revelation 1:6 / Revelation 5:10 / 1 Peter 2:3-9). Not all in Christ are called to preach, and the local congregational meetings are to supplement our own ministries... NOT replace them. So we should consider our own ministries worthy of our support... as well as giving to the local Church.

While we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Christ, and while we are not under many of the Laws given to us by Moses, the Bible also teaches that “works of faith” (given to us by Jesus and His followers) also play a part in the salvation process. For both Jesus and Paul taught and or implied that works play a part in eternal life.

#1. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say you can deny God by one's works.

For Jesus said,
"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:23).

Jesus said,
"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30).

Paul said,
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#2. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say you need to drink of (walk in) the Spirit as a part of everlasting life.

Jesus said,
"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." (John 4:14).

Jesus said,
"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." (John 7:38).

John said this of Jesus's words,
"(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:39).

Paul said,
“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Paul said,
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

Paul said,
“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

#3. Both Jesus and Paul say that the judgment involves those being condemned or punished in the afterlife for doing evil vs. doing good leading to glory or life as a part of God's kingdom.

Jesus said,
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Paul said,
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Paul said,
19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

#4. Both Jesus and Paul taught that we have to continue to abide in the good works of the Lord or we will be cut off and or burned in the fire.

Jesus said,
4 "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:4-6).

Paul said,
“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#5. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say that the fear of the Lord is a part of salvation.

Jesus said,
"Fear not them who can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him (The Lord, i.e. Jesus) who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:28‬).

Paul said,
"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12).

#6. Both Jesus and Paul taught that laboring for the right kind of food relates to everlasting life.

Jesus says,
"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you..." (John 6:29).

Jesus says,
"My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." (John 4:34).

Paul said,
“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

#7. Both Jesus and Paul spoke of a time in the last days of where false prophets shall arise who are faithless and who do not love (i.e. they will have a form of godliness).

Jesus said,
"Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8).

Jesus said,
"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." (Matthew 24:12).

Jesus said,
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many" (Matthew 24:11).

Paul said,
1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was." (2 Timothy 3:1-9).

Side Note:

Please take note that James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). So the faithless that Jesus talks about are those who are fruitless or those who do not have any truly good works. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 is also a revealing passage, as well. Basically it is saying what you are not supposed to be like. For this passage describes those who have a form of godliness and they are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. This means that a Belief Alone Type Gospel (that leads to one not being concerned about sin or not treating it as seriously) is simply not true. For the moment I tell someone that all they need to do to be saved is to believe in Jesus and nothing else, they are going to not be concerned with living holy (because they do not think it is necessary to enter God's Kingdom).

Bible Highlighter · Feb 16, 2021

JohnD70X7 said:
View attachment 295026

We are not under the 613 Laws of Moses. The Old Law has ended. We do not keep the Saturday Sabbath, John's water baptism, circumcision, tithing, or dietary laws. But that does not mean certain laws have not carried over into the New Covenant. Believers under the New Covenant are still obligated to not murder, not covet, not hate, not steal, etc.; Paul said that if anyone does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). You have to rightly divide when reading the word “law” mentioned generically by the apostle Paul. He was not referring to the commands that came from Jesus and His followers. If he did, he would be condemning himself in 1 Timothy 6:3-4. Paul was referring to the Old Law or the Law of Moses as a whole or package deal. Some people do not realize that there are more than just the 10. There are 613 laws given to Israel. Most of these laws are not applicable today. Hence, this is why Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. We are under a New Covenant with New Commands. Christians are not lawless individuals.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 16, 2021

@JohnD70X7

While we are initiallly and foundationally saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ and while the Old Law (the 613 laws as a whole or package deal) is no more, sin can still separate us from God if we don't repent; And obedience to God's commands (in the New Covenant) is still tied to eternal life.

#1 The Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

#2. The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

Bible Highlighter · Feb 16, 2021

@JohnD70X7

I believe Jesus primarily taught New Covenant and not Old Covenant. Yes, there were a few instances he appeared to agree with Old Covenant teachings, but this was not the focus of His ministry or teachings. It does not make sense that Jesus would give us New teachings just so that all of them were to be undone, or for us to ignore them. Matthew 5:28-30 still applies today. Just because Jesus was using metaphor or a figure of speech at one point in his conversation (like cutting off our hand and or gouging out our eye), that does not mean the rest of what He said in Matthew 5:28-30 was a metaphor. We use slang or figures of speech in our literal conversations all the time. Surely we are not talking entirely in metaphor just because we may use a slang word or phrase in our literal conversations. Nowhere will you find that this teaching by Jesus in Matthew 5:28-30 is later undone by a teaching given to us by another apostle. Besides, what do you make of Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, Luke 10:25-28? These do not appear to be using any metaphors in these particular portions of Scripture.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 16, 2021

@JohnD70X7

Matthew 13:41-42 speaks of the time of the judgment. It says...

“The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:41-42).

What this passage is saying is that at the judgment: The Son of man (i.e. JESUS) will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM (i.e. Christ's kingdom), all things that “offend” (i.e. offend = to make to sin, like making children to sin - See Mark 9:42-48; Note: This can also be things like false beliefs that can lead people into justifying sin), and them which do iniquity (i.e. those who justify sin by saying we can sin and still be saved), and they shall be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire - See also: Revelation 21:8).

In other words, this means that a Christian can be in the Kingdom and later they can be cast out by Christ's angels on account of their justifying sin.

JohnD70X7 · Feb 16, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
@JohnD70X7

I believe Jesus primarily taught New Covenant and not Old Covenant. Yes, there were a few instances he appeared to agree with Old Covenant teachings, but this was not the focus of His ministry or teachings. It does not make sense that Jesus would give us New teachings just so that all of them were to be undone, or for us to ignore them. Matthew 5:28-30 still applies today. Just because Jesus was using metaphor or a figure of speech at one point in his conversation (like cutting off our hand and or gouging out our eye), that does not mean the rest of what He said in Matthew 5:28-30 was a metaphor. We use slang or figures of speech in our literal conversations all the time. Surely we are not talking entirely in metaphor just because we may use a slang word or phrase in our literal conversations. Nowhere will you find that this teaching by Jesus in Matthew 5:28-30 is later undone by a teaching given to us by another apostle. Besides, what do you make of Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, Luke 10:25-28? These do not appear to be using any metaphors in these particular portions of Scripture.

The Old Covenant contains the New Covenant in predictive prophecy. Of course Jesus taught it when he taught Old Covenant. A worthy study is to find Jesus and the Gospel in the Old Testament ← which were the scriptures spoken of in the New Testament like Acts 17:11.

Deuteronomy 18:15 (AV)
15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Acts 3:22 (AV)
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

etc...

Bible Highlighter · Feb 16, 2021

JohnD70X7 said:
The Old Covenant contains the New Covenant in predictive prophecy. Of course Jesus taught it when he taught Old Covenant. A worthy study is to find Jesus and the Gospel in the Old Testament ← which were the scriptures spoken of in the New Testament like Acts 17:11.

Deuteronomy 18:15 (AV)
15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Acts 3:22 (AV)
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

etc...

I believe all moral teachings of Jesus Christ (and not ceremonial OT teachings) still apply to today under the New Covenant. We see many of these moral laws carry over into the New Covenant after the cross. For Paul also gave us moral teachings as a part of eternal life. For Paul mentions sins like: “Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like.” (Galatians 5:19-21). Paul says that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul says those who commit adultery will not inherit the kingdom of God. Jesus expands upon adultery by looking upon a woman in lust. This teaching has not changed later on by another apostle. It is still true. Matthew 5:28-30 still applies to us as believers today. It's a new teaching by our Lord Jesus Christ and it is a moral teaching and not an OT ceremonial teaching.

pescador · Feb 16, 2021

JohnD70X7 said:
The Old Covenant contains the New Covenant in predictive prophecy. Of course Jesus taught it when he taught Old Covenant. A worthy study is to find Jesus and the Gospel in the Old Testament ← which were the scriptures spoken of in the New Testament like Acts 17:11.

Deuteronomy 18:15 (AV)
15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Acts 3:22 (AV)
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

etc...

Here are those verses translated into modern English...

Deuteronomy 18:15 (NET)
The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you—from your fellow Israelites; you must listen to him.

Acts 3:22 (NET)
Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your brothers. You must obey him in everything he tells you.

Acts 17:11 (NET)
These Jews were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they eagerly received the message, examining the scriptures carefully every day to see if these things were so.

Much clearer, right?

Bible Highlighter · Feb 16, 2021

JohnD70X7 said:
The Old Covenant contains the New Covenant in predictive prophecy. Of course Jesus taught it when he taught Old Covenant. A worthy study is to find Jesus and the Gospel in the Old Testament ← which were the scriptures spoken of in the New Testament like Acts 17:11.

Deuteronomy 18:15 (AV)
15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Acts 3:22 (AV)
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

etc...

Acts of the Apostles 3:23 basically says that every soul that does not hear (obeys) that prophet shall be destroyed. This prophet is Jesus Christ. So if a person does not do what Jesus says shall be destroyed from among the people. Matthew 7:26-27 says a similar thing. So it's not just believing in Jesus that will save us, but it is in doing what He says, too. For Jesus says in Luke 6:46, “...why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?”

Ceallaigh · Feb 16, 2021

The whole point of the Old Covenant and Old Testament is that it lays out the coming of Jesus Christ to set things right. It started with Adam and ended with Jesus.

Rightly dividing the word of truth: where the OT and NT dividing line is...

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May God be with you and bless you.

May God be with you and bless you.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

May God be with you and bless you.

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