Why Am I Eating a Pork Chop?

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prodromos

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Hi tripleseven and welcome to CF :)

It is hard to get around talking about swine in a discussion about clean and unclean foods when it is written in the scriptures. I will try and be mindful though or perhaps you can simply interpret the word how it is meant to be interpreted in the biblical context?

Swine is written all through the bible....

Leviticus 11:7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he chews not the cud; he is unclean to you.

Deuteronomy 14:8 And the swine, because it divides the hoof, yet chews not the cud, it is unclean to you: you shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass.

Proverbs 11:22 As a jewel of gold in a swine's snout, so is a fair woman which is without discretion.

Isaiah 65:4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;

Isaiah 66:3 He that kills an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrifices a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offers an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burns incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yes, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations.

Isaiah 66:17
They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the middle, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, said the LORD.

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy to the dogs, neither cast you your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Matthew 8:30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.

Matthew 8:31 So the devils sought him, saying, If you cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.

Matthew 8:32 And he said to them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.

Mark 5:11 Now there was there near to the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.

Mark 5:12-14 And all the devils sought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. And immediately Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea. And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done.

Mark 5:16 And they that saw it told them how it befell to him that was possessed with the devil, and also concerning the swine.

Luke 8:32 And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they sought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them.

Luke 8:33 Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked.

Luke 15:15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.

Luke 15:16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave to him.

................

God bless
If a particular Bible translation causes your brother to stumble, the obvious Christian thing to do is not what you just did.
Lord have mercy!
 
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atpollard

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Not even remotely correct...
Just for clarification, are you saying that the Jerusalem Council was "not even remotely correct..." or that Jipsah's guess was "not even remotely correct..."?

Your answer is unclear.
 
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atpollard

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The New Covenant -- is it for you or "just Jews"?
Where is the prohibition on eating pork (or any unclean animal) in the New Covenant?
I am not under the Covenant of Moses, so I am free to shave my beard and wear blended fabrics and eat bacon. It also means that I do not have a family plot in Israel that returns to me every 50 years. My "Fathers" were busy fishing the Atlantic around the time of Moses.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Ceallaigh

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Here:

"After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." --Matthew 6:9-13

I was referring to the legalistic teaching given to Christians that says every sin must be confessed and asked forgiveness for per each occurrence for them to go to heaven.
 
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Jipsah

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Really? Yet mine stands on what is actually written
Ecept, of course, Acts 10, which has to be trimed to fit your doctrine.

, but yours on an emotional assertion.
The emotion being that one ougt to read the whole thing, as written.

The irony of your doubling down on accusing me of what you're actually doing, is very entertaining, but also very dishonest
Nope, it says what it says. I feel no need to alter it by a word. You, however, have a lot 'splainin' away to do. <Laugh>

: I'm the one actually proving by the scriptures what the vision meant
As opposed, of course, to what it actually says, which your doctrine doesn't allow.

, by citing Peter's very understanding of it
And acting as though that was all that was said. Naughty naughty!

; yet you are contradicting Peter's own understanding, simply by assertion.
Not St. Peter's, yours.

[quote[I get it, you're a pork lover, but to what end?[/QUOTE] Chant that all you like, if it's the best you have, you have to use it. But Acts 10 still says al that astuff you devoutly wish it did not.
 
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BobRyan

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Hi all

Sorry to go a bit off topic. This is an informative thread that i enjoy reading. However, if can I humbly request that you don't use the "sw*ne" word. Please just use pig or pork or hog etc. In my country, sw*ne is an extremely offensive word, on par with the "f" word, and it make me very uncomfortable to read that word in some of the posts.

Thank you for your understanding.

Actually I prefer not to use any of those terms because other folks have some issue with them -- so I try to just stick with "rat" , "cat", "dog", "bat" etc.

So I am very happy to comply with that request and may God bless you.
 
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BobRyan

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Judaism = no bacon
Islam = no bacon

Was Noah a Jew or a Muslim in your POV?


Good answer.

Gen 7:Then the Lord said to Noah, “Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation. 2 You shall take with you seven each of every clean animal, a male and his female; two each of animals that are unclean, a male and his female; 3 also seven each of birds of the air, male and female, to keep the species alive on the face of all the earth.

He certainly wasn't a Christian.

He was the same thing that Enoch was in Gen 5 - and Enoch went directly to heaven without dying (Heb 11).

He was someone that "walked with God" directly.

21 Enoch lived sixty-five years, and begot Methuselah. 22 After he begot Methuselah, Enoch walked with God three hundred years, and had sons and daughters. 23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

And so he "Walked by faith" -- as we must, and was "pleasing to God"

Heb 11
5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Paul says that in all of time there is only ONE Gospel Gal 1:6-9 and that same Gospel was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8.

Enoch only had one Gospel that would produce that result -- the "one" Gospel.

And Noah was also a Christian who was living according to the Gospel teaching of "righteousness by faith" -

Heb 11
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Such that God declared Noah "righteous" -
Gen 7:1 Then the Lord said to Noah, “Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.

So the point remains...someone called righteous that was neither a muslim or a Jew -- and observed the distinction between clean and unclean animals.
.
 
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BobRyan

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Boy did you miss the mark on that one.
When exactly did the LORD lead your fathers out of Egypt and make that particular covenant with them?

The New Covenant -- is it for you or "just Jews"?

Heb 8:7 "“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will bring about a new covenant
With the house of Israel and the house of Judah,"

Rom 2:26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

Where is the prohibition on eating pork (or any unclean animal) in the New Covenant?

Jeremiah is the first Bible author to define the New Covenant content and Paul quotes Jeremiah verbatim in Hebrews 8, no changes from OT to NT according to Paul regarding the moral law of God that defines what sin is and is written on the heart under the New Covenant..

Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

All Bible scholars admit that Jeremiah and his readers knew about the scriptures written by Moses and Jeremiah as well as his readers considered that to be "Law" as given by God.

1. Exegesis as applied to Jer 31:31-34 would have included Lev 11 in that term "Law".

2. Lev 11 would also be the only way to define the terms "clean and unclean" as found in Genesis 7 - since Moses is giving both Genesis and Leviticus to the same contemporary readers.
 
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Leaf473

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Hi all

Sorry to go a bit off topic. This is an informative thread that i enjoy reading. However, if can I humbly request that you don't use the "sw*ne" word. Please just use pig or pork or hog etc. In my country, sw*ne is an extremely offensive word, on par with the "f" word, and it make me very uncomfortable to read that word in some of the posts.

Thank you for your understanding.
Hi tripleseven,
What country are you from?
 
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98cwitr

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It clearly states in Deuteronomy 14:8 that we’re not to eat pork. In fact, Deuteronomy and Leviticus clearly state a lot of things that we don’t adhere to.

13:6 through18: We’re instructed to kill without mercy -even your own family members- anyone who tries to convince you to worship other gods.

17:2 through 13: Kill anyone who does evil-such as worshipping the stars- and violates the covenant. And if you’re not sure if the party is guilty, take it to court and if the Judge finds the party guilty and you refuse take part in stoning the defendant to death, then you should be killed too.

21:18: Kill your own son if he is rebellious.

Thou shalt not kill, but Deuteronomy, Leviticus, and Exodus is full of examples like this where we are to kill people for sinning. What about “as we forgive those who trespass against us”? I seem to have made executing people the theme here, but there are instructions/laws on other topics as well that we don’t follow, I’m assuming because they just don’t seem consistent with our faith.

So why is it OK to have a pork Bratwurst at the church fundraising event these days when God clearly forbids it?

You could argue that things were different back then and don’t apply today. But that would nullify the Ten Commandments. These laws I’m referring to were issued on the same day. They just didn’t make the top ten list.

As mentioned

Romans 14:20

We are not under OT Law
 
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BobRyan

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As mentioned

Romans 14:20

We are not under OT Law

Romans 14:20 does not say that. Would you prefer to have quoted it?

Mark 7:6-13 Jesus said "God's Word" = "Commandment of God" = "Moses said".

Matt 19 - Jesus said the OT commandments matter.
Rom 13 - Paul quotes the same ones and admits that they still matter.

Eph 6:1-2 reminds us of the Law of God where the "first commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment and says that all are still held accountable to that.

James 2 says the binding requirement in those OT commands is still based on "He who said" -- being God
 
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98cwitr

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Romans 14:20 does not say that. Would you prefer to have quoted it?

Mark 7:6-13 Jesus said "God's Word" = "Commandment of God" = "Moses said".

Matt 19 - Jesus said the OT commandments matter.
Rom 13 - Paul quotes the same ones and admits that they still matter.

Eph 6:1-2 reminds us of the Law of God where the "first commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment and says that all are still held accountable to that.

James 2 says the binding requirement in those OT commands is still based on "He who said" -- being God

Mark 7:19


Mark 7:19
For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

We are not under OT Law:

Romans 7:6
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
 
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Ceallaigh

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1 John 1, Luke 11.
I was referring to the legalistic teaching given to Christians that says every sin must be confessed and asked forgiveness for per each occurrence for them to go to heaven.
 
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BobRyan

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Mark 7:19

Mark 7:19
For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

Context for Mark 7 is about eating wheat/bread not about eating rats, or cats, or dogs, or bats.

============= Mark 7:1-19

Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes came together to Him, having come from Jerusalem. 2 Now when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault.

  • (The word is baptize - they had not ceremonially cleansed their hands from the supposed "sin" that would be on them by the act of buying food in the market place where gentiles were present. A "tradition" of the Jews nothing at all like that in the Bible. This is not even remotely connected to eating rats. )

Mark 7
3 For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders. 4 When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches.

  • (Ceremonial washing - a tradition not a command in the Bible regarding the marketplace and/or sin getting on something from the marketplace.)

5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?”

6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”

9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

  • ( Commandment of God = Moses said = "Word of God", according to Christ in Mark 7)

14 When He had called all the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear Me, everyone, and understand: 15 There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man. 16 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!”

17 When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable. 18 So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him,

NASB 1955
19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

  • The translation notes the "insert" by the translators

===========

They were not arguing that if you first wash a rat then it is fine to eat it otherwise it is defiled.

Inserting that sort of thing into this text is not warranted, not logical.

Acts 10 Peter affirms that even as late as that date - he was not eating rats.
 
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