Scripturally based book recommendation or Eschatology

jgr · Feb 13, 2021

Biblewriter said:
What ALL men say has zero bearing on he truth of God. And the scriptures could not me more plain in explicitly saying, again and again, that God will bring absolutely all of the twelve tribes of Israel back to their ancient homeland, and will bless them there.

This was clearly taught by the ancient writers, and was again taught when the KJV first made Bibles widely available at prices ordinary men could afford. This was insisted upon at length in the most widely circulated set of Bible commentaries of the 1700s, which was published during the years of about 1712 to 1715. So forget your nonsense about the end time earthly blessing of the physical nation of Israel having never been taught before 1830.

I thought we were discussing the meaning of "the Israel of God" in Galatians 6:16.

Unsurprisingly, you're now off on some tangent of dispensational desperation and delusion entirely irrelevant to the topic.

I knew it was inevitable.

Speaking of nonsense, provide just one name of any recognized historical defender of the true faith before the 19th century who did not believe that the Israel of God is the Church of God.

Just one name.

Accompanied by quote, source, and date, of course.

Just one name.

sovereigngrace · Feb 13, 2021

Biblewriter said:
No scripture even hints at the idea that these people will return "with other Christian Israelites of God." Actually the scriptures say the very opposite, that, as they return, God will purge the rebels from their ranks, saying of those rebels that "I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel." (Ezekiel 20:38)

And no scripture even hints at the idea that the church will ever be gathered to the land of Israel.

Not true. Please look at the two texts below. They are speaking about two types of Israeli (not one): one is unsaved and the other is saved. One is "blinded" and the other is the elect remnant of Israel – "the election." You are failing to see that, or you are refusing to see that. The nation is no longer chosen. It rejects Christ and therefore rejects God.

Romans 11:5-7 explains: “Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.”

This is actually saying the opposite to what you are arguing. In fact, it is actually saying what is says: “Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for.” In short, salvation or favor with God has absolutely nothing to do with ethnicity. It is not about being an Israelite; it is nothing to do with racial status or nationality; it is all to do with being chosen – namely being one of God’s elect remnant. This is the only means of favor with God. This spiritual family are the true Israel and the only accepted people of God. To be of the “election” one has to have a real personal intimate relationship with Jesus Christ.

What “election hath obtained it”? The “election of grace” that pertains to the “remnant.” It is not the whole of Israel, but a remnant that is elected!!!

Paul readdresses this in Romans 11:28: “As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.”

It is “the election” that are saved. They are the remnant that belongs to God – His favor rests upon them. The rest are blind and are of their father the devil.

keras · Feb 13, 2021

Biblewriter said:
What ALL men say has zero bearing on he truth of God. And the scriptures could not me more plain in explicitly saying, again and again, that God will bring absolutely all of the twelve tribes of Israel back to their ancient homeland, and will bless them there.

Right, but it must include those grafted in and only Christians. Romans 11:13-24
Is it your belief that Jewish Israel represents all 12 tribes? If so then Jesus failed in His mission. Matthew 15:24
No; Jesus succeeded and we Christians are the result. Most of us, the Western peoples are descended from the 10 lost tribes. Any belief contrary to this truth, can be proved wrong in many ways.

Biblewriter · Feb 14, 2021

keras said:
Right, but it must include those grafted in and only Christians. Romans 11:13-24
Is it your belief that Jewish Israel represents all 12 tribes? If so then Jesus failed in His mission. Matthew 15:24
No; Jesus succeeded and we Christians are the result. Most of us, the Western peoples are descended from the 10 lost tribes. Any belief contrary to this truth, can be proved wrong in many ways.

AFTER He has taken all the Christians to heaven, and AFTER He has come in judgment against the wicked, THEN He will bring absolutely all of the twelve tribes of Israel back to their ancient homeland.
Just read Isaiah 66.

Biblewriter · Feb 14, 2021

keras said:
Right, but it must include those grafted in and only Christians. Romans 11:13-24
Is it your belief that Jewish Israel represents all 12 tribes? If so then Jesus failed in His mission. Matthew 15:24
No; Jesus succeeded and we Christians are the result. Most of us, the Western peoples are descended from the 10 lost tribes. Any belief contrary to this truth, can be proved wrong in many ways.

Whatever ANY mere mortal says about it is immaterial.

keras · Feb 14, 2021

Biblewriter said:
AFTER He has taken all the Christians to heaven, and AFTER He has come in judgment against the wicked, THEN He will bring absolutely all of the twelve tribes of Israel back to their ancient homeland.
Just read Isaiah 66.

Who is Isaiah 66 talking about?
Who are 'those who revere His Word' and who are the kinsmen who hate them?

Isaiah 66:1-2 & 5 These are the words of the Lord: The heavens are My throne and the earth is My footstool. All this is My own making and belongs to Me.
Those who revere My word are oppressed and afflicted.
Hear the word of the Lord, you that revere His word: Your kinsmen hate you because you follow My ways. They say: “Let the Lord show His glory. We do not believe in God”. 2 Peter 3:3-4 But they will be put to shame. Amos 9:10

Isaiah 66:3-4 & 6 People have adopted loathsome practices, so I shall bring to them that which they fear. No one listened to Me and they chose what displeased Me.
The noise and distress you hear is the Lord, dealing retribution to His foes.

This is the Great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, the next prophesied event – the judgement of the nations. Jeremiah 50:22

Isaiah 66:7-9 Zion has been born a son, before any labor pains. Who has heard of such a thing? Can a nation be born in a single day? Shall I bring to the point of birth and not deliver? I, the Lord, will deliver her children.

Isaiah 66:10-14 Rejoice with Jerusalem, all you who love her, for you will be comforted and shall delight in her abundance. Obadiah 19-21

These are the words of the Lord; I shall make prosperity flow over her, like a river and the wealth of the nations will come to her. I will comfort and uphold you. My people will be glad and will flourish like the grass in springtime. The Lord will make His power known among His servants and His indignation felt among His enemies. Reference: REB some verses abridged

The earth is My footstool… The Lord is the Maker and owner of all things. Those people who love him and keep His commandments are ‘oppressed and afflicted’, this is the situation in many parts of the world today. Their 'kinsmen' who hate Christians, are the Jews.

Let the Lord show His glory. Scoffers say; Where is your Lord, nothing changes. 2 Peter 3:3-4 ‘But they will be put to shame’.

Can a nation be born on a single day? This passage has been quoted extensively, as being fulfilled by the Jewish State of Israel. It cannot apply to them, as it took at least 50 years for Israel to become a country, with many ‘labor pains’. To say that the country of Israel was born in one day, the day it was declared, or the day it was ratified by the UN?, is an incorrect statement. But other prophecies, yet to be fulfilled, about how righteous Israel; the Lord’s people, will return to the Promised Land, confirm that the Lord will deliver the children of Zion. The will be the great second Exodus of all the Israelites.

The wealth of the nations will come to Zion. The precursor to this was at the first Exodus, when the Israelites took treasure from the Egyptians.

The Lord will make His power known among His servants and His indignation felt among His enemies. This is not the glorious Return, He is not seen at this time. His righteous people will know His deliverance and the godless will know their punishment. It is the many prophesied judgement of fire, described in Isaiah 30:26 as a Coronal Mass Ejection that destroys His enemies, but on that same Day; He saves His people.

keras · Feb 14, 2021

Biblewriter said:
Whatever ANY mere mortal says about it is immaterial.

You included. Only what the Bible says counts.
The Jewish State of Israel will be destroyed; Amos 2:4-5, Isaiah 29:1-4, +
The Christian peoples will occupy all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26, +

The simple point to be inferred from this whole issue of the Ten Lost Tribes is that the Jews are not all of Israel. God’s purpose is to let the 10 tribes which were separated in King Rehoboam’s time, to become lost to the world and the two tribes of Judah to remain a visible entity. Deuteronomy 32:26; 2 Chronicles 10:19; Jeremiah 29:18

They both have specific tasks to fulfil, during this period of dispersion, the Church age.

Perhaps one way to identify the other Israelite tribes, besides those Jews already known, is to look for those who fear, acknowledge and love the Creator God, live by His laws and produce the fruit of good works. James 2:24.

The Caucasian, Western nations (people groups) have been identified by the historical, linguistic, archaeological and genetic research, as having a majority of descendants of Israel/Jacob. They are also the Christian nations, so this is another proof.
According to some records, at least one tribe went eastwards and I think that South Korea, because of it’s amazing Christian awakening, has quite probably, Israelite origins.

Bible prophecy clearly says that all Israel will be gathered before Jesus returns and Gods promises to the Patriarchs must be kept. Ezekiel 20:34-38 Genesis 17:6-8

Malachi 3:16-18 Then those who feared the Lord, talked together – the Lord listened. A record was written of those who feared Him and respected His Name. They will be Mine, says the Lord of Hosts, My own possession for the Day that I appoint, I will spare them. Once more you will see the difference between those who serve God and the wicked apostate peoples.

Malachi 4:1 The Day comes; burning like a furnace, all the arrogant evildoers will be as stubble, they will be destroyed in a fiery blaze.

Malachi 4:2-3 But you, who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings and you will break loose, like calves released from a stall.

Malachi 4:3 On the Day that I take action, you will tread down the wicked, they will be as under your feet.

Malachi 4:4-6 Remember the Laws given to Moses, keep all My commandments given to Israel at Sinai. Look; I will send you Elijah before the Day of the Lord. He will reconcile families and preserve the Land from the wrath of the Lord.

Biblewriter · Feb 15, 2021

keras said:
You included. Only what the Bible says counts.
The Jewish State of Israel will be destroyed; Amos 2:4-5, Isaiah 29:1-4, +
The Christian peoples will occupy all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26, +

The simple point to be inferred from this whole issue of the Ten Lost Tribes is that the Jews are not all of Israel. God’s purpose is to let the 10 tribes which were separated in King Rehoboam’s time, to become lost to the world and the two tribes of Judah to remain a visible entity. Deuteronomy 32:26; 2 Chronicles 10:19; Jeremiah 29:18

They both have specific tasks to fulfil, during this period of dispersion, the Church age.

Perhaps one way to identify the other Israelite tribes, besides those Jews already known, is to look for those who fear, acknowledge and love the Creator God, live by His laws and produce the fruit of good works. James 2:24.

The Caucasian, Western nations (people groups) have been identified by the historical, linguistic, archaeological and genetic research, as having a majority of descendants of Israel/Jacob. They are also the Christian nations, so this is another proof.
According to some records, at least one tribe went eastwards and I think that South Korea, because of it’s amazing Christian awakening, has quite probably, Israelite origins.

Bible prophecy clearly says that all Israel will be gathered before Jesus returns and Gods promises to the Patriarchs must be kept. Ezekiel 20:34-38 Genesis 17:6-8

Malachi 3:16-18 Then those who feared the Lord, talked together – the Lord listened. A record was written of those who feared Him and respected His Name. They will be Mine, says the Lord of Hosts, My own possession for the Day that I appoint, I will spare them. Once more you will see the difference between those who serve God and the wicked apostate peoples.

Malachi 4:1 The Day comes; burning like a furnace, all the arrogant evildoers will be as stubble, they will be destroyed in a fiery blaze.

Malachi 4:2-3 But you, who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings and you will break loose, like calves released from a stall.

Malachi 4:3 On the Day that I take action, you will tread down the wicked, they will be as under your feet.

Malachi 4:4-6 Remember the Laws given to Moses, keep all My commandments given to Israel at Sinai. Look; I will send you Elijah before the Day of the Lord. He will reconcile families and preserve the Land from the wrath of the Lord.

All of this is multiplied wresting of the scriptures. You are applying prophecies that were addressed to and about the ancient nation of Israel and applying them to the church. And you are interpreting other scriptures to mean things they do not actually say.

keras · Feb 15, 2021

Biblewriter said:
All of this is multiplied wresting of the scriptures. You are applying prophecies that were addressed to and about the ancient nation of Israel and applying them to the church. And you are interpreting other scriptures to mean things they do not actually say.

What is the really most serious 'wrestling' of the Prophetic Word, is the theory of a 'rapture to heaven'.
The scriptures that I have pointed out, plainly tell about an earthly future for mankind and at the end, God will come here to dwell with us. Revelation 21:1-7

Biblewriter · Feb 16, 2021

keras said:
What is the really most serious 'wrestling' of the Prophetic Word, is the theory of a 'rapture to heaven'.
The scriptures that I have pointed out, plainly tell about an earthly future for mankind and at the end, God will come here to dwell with us. Revelation 21:1-7

What you are denying, is that the scriptures that you are quoting are not about, but abut the nation of Israel, which will indeed be brought back o their ancient homeland AFTER our God had taken us to be with Himself in the "Father's house," (John 14:2-3) where we will be at the "marriage of the Lamb" (Revelation 20:7-9) before accompanying Him (Revelation 20:14) as He comes back to judge the world for its evil.

Hazelelponi · Feb 16, 2021

Jeffwhosoever said:
and offers different views within the orthodox beliefs (for example we reject amillineliasm).

The only orthodox belief is amillenialism.... lol

Jeffwhosoever · Feb 16, 2021

Question for all. Are you a futurist, a idealist, a historicist, or a preterist in regards to eschatology, and how did you decide on your belief about the meaning of Daniel, the Olivet Discourse, the book of Revelation, and the Apostle Paul's epistles such as Thessalonians, and other old and new testment books that refer to the end and judgement of the world.

Jeffwhosoever · Feb 16, 2021

This is NOT a prophecy. I merely did some research. 2030 AD seems to be significant in relations to the Great Tribulation, but what the relationship is, I don't have a clue. I triangulated 2030 AD in 3 ways. First and least objective, my best friend told me in 1999 when all the Y2K and Mayan people were claiming the end was at hand, my friend said the world would not end until 2030 AD (or possibly later). Second, from the research I did, I found evidence that the Lord was born in 3 BC, and died at the age of 33 years old and rose again in the flesh, which puts the date at 30 AD. Add 2,000 years to the year of the Lord's cruxifiction and resurrection, and you also get the year 2030 AD. Finally, and most objectively between the fig tree reference and "this generation shall not pass", I found out Israel became a nationo again post WWII in 1948. The life espectancy (a generation if you will) of a modern Israeli is 82 years. Adding 1948 and 82 also results in 2030 AD. The relationship to timing of the great tribulation is impossible for me to discern, but I have to think 2030 AD is a key milestone in the final 7 years, whether 2030 AD is the start, the middle, or the end of the 7 years. what do you think about this analysis? Again, it was based on historical research and math, not some message from God that whispered "2030" in my ear.

Biblewriter · Feb 16, 2021

Hazelelponi said:
The only orthodox belief is amillenialism.... lol

Actually, in the fifth century, Jerome called futurism "the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian church."

Douggg · Feb 17, 2021

Biblewriter said:
AFTER He has taken all the Christians to heaven, and AFTER He has come in judgment against the wicked, THEN He will bring absolutely all of the twelve tribes of Israel back to their ancient homeland.
Just read Isaiah 66.

And in Ezekiel 39:28, Jesus Himself speaking in the text in verses 21-29 having returned to this earth and judged the wicked at Armageddon, Ezekiel 39:17-20.

Douggg · Feb 17, 2021

Jeffwhosoever said:
Question for all. Are you a futurist, a idealist, a historicist, or a preterist in regards to eschatology, and how did you decide on your belief about the meaning of Daniel, the Olivet Discourse, the book of Revelation, and the Apostle Paul's epistles such as Thessalonians, and other old and new testment books that refer to the end and judgement of the world.

Jeff, I am a futurist. A long 50 year road from my early twenties, begun with reading the late great planet earth and a modern english translation bible.

Much of my view of how end times events will unfold is a result on getting a lot of information of what Jews (Judaism) believe about their view of the messiah (the forthcoming Antichrist in the Christian bible) and other things, discussing, arguing with them. I have over 10,000 posts at their discussion boards since 2004.

God chooses us for His purpose. We don't choose God. We are lost in trespass and sin, apart from Him.

Douggg · Feb 17, 2021

Jeffwhosoever said:
This is NOT a prophecy. I merely did some research. 2030 AD seems to be significant in relations to the Great Tribulation, but what the relationship is, I don't have a clue. I triangulated 2030 AD in 3 ways. First and least objective, my best friend told me in 1999 when all the Y2K and Mayan people were claiming the end was at hand, my friend said the world would not end until 2030 AD (or possibly later). Second, from the research I did, I found evidence that the Lord was born in 3 BC, and died at the age of 33 years old and rose again in the flesh, which puts the date at 30 AD. Add 2,000 years to the year of the Lord's cruxifiction and resurrection, and you also get the year 2030 AD. Finally, and most objectively between the fig tree reference and "this generation shall not pass", I found out Israel became a nationo again post WWII in 1948. The life espectancy (a generation if you will) of a modern Israeli is 82 years. Adding 1948 and 82 also results in 2030 AD. The relationship to timing of the great tribulation is impossible for me to discern, but I have to think 2030 AD is a key milestone in the final 7 years, whether 2030 AD is the start, the middle, or the end of the 7 years. what do you think about this analysis? Again, it was based on historical research and math, not some message from God that whispered "2030" in my ear.

Parable of the fig tree in Matthew 24:32 is 1967 + 70 years = 2037 minus 7 years for the 70th week of Daniel 9, indicates 2030 as the likely further most into the future when the 70th week begins.

jgr · Feb 17, 2021

Biblewriter said:
Actually, in the fifth century, Jerome called futurism "the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian church."

Actually, here's what Jerome actually said:

"We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings, that is, the king of Egypt, the king of [North] Africa, and the king of Ethiopia, as we shall show more clearly in our later discussion. Then after they have been slain, the seven other kings also will bow their necks to the victor. "And behold," he continues, "there were eyes like unto human eyes in that horn." Let us not follow the opinion of some commentators and suppose him to be either the Devil or some demon, but rather, one of the human race, in whom Satan will wholly take up his residence in bodily form. ". . .and a mouth uttering overweening boasts..." (cf. II Thess. 2). For this is the man of sin, the son (668) of perdition, and that too to such a degree that he dares to sit in the temple of God, making himself out to be like God." (St. Jerome, Commentary on Daniel)

With the exception of “...at the end of the world...”, this is a virtually classic statement of the historicist position. Since the Roman Empire of which Daniel spoke no longer exists, futurism must manufacture a futurized re-created Roman Empire, Roman ten kingdoms, et al. Jerome, conversely, recognized that the extant Roman Empire of his own day, and the geopolitical and religious events associated with its dissolution and re-emergence over ensuing centuries as the apostate papacy, were what the commentators had been anticipating. Had Jerome and said commentators survived to the time of the Reformation, they would, with the Reformers, have recognized the fulfillments of Daniel's predictions and descriptions. The only misapprehension of Jerome et al was that these fulfillments would coincide with the end of the world in its entirety. They ultimately did, of course, culminate with the Reformation in the end of the apostate papal world of its era, as history records.

Contrary to dispensational futurism's misrepresentations, Jerome et al were overwhelmingly more historicist than futurist in their prophetic understanding.

Hazelelponi · Feb 17, 2021

jgr said:
Actually, here's what Jerome actually said:

"We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings, that is, the king of Egypt, the king of [North] Africa, and the king of Ethiopia, as we shall show more clearly in our later discussion. Then after they have been slain, the seven other kings also will bow their necks to the victor. "And behold," he continues, "there were eyes like unto human eyes in that horn." Let us not follow the opinion of some commentators and suppose him to be either the Devil or some demon, but rather, one of the human race, in whom Satan will wholly take up his residence in bodily form. ". . .and a mouth uttering overweening boasts..." (cf. II Thess. 2). For this is the man of sin, the son (668) of perdition, and that too to such a degree that he dares to sit in the temple of God, making himself out to be like God." (St. Jerome, Commentary on Daniel)

With the exception of “...at the end of the world...”, this is a virtually classic statement of the historicist position. Since the Roman Empire of which Daniel spoke no longer exists, futurism must manufacture a futurized re-created Roman Empire, Roman ten kingdoms, et al. Jerome, conversely, recognized that the extant Roman Empire of his own day, and the geopolitical and religious events associated with its dissolution and re-emergence over ensuing centuries as the apostate papacy, were what the commentators had been anticipating. Had Jerome and said commentators survived to the time of the Reformation, they would, with the Reformers, have recognized the fulfillments of Daniel's predictions and descriptions. The only misapprehension of Jerome et al was that these fulfillments would coincide with the end of the world in its entirety. They ultimately did, of course, culminate with the Reformation in the end of the apostate papal world of its era, as history records.

Contrary to dispensational futurism's misrepresentations, Jerome et al were overwhelmingly more historicist than futurist in their prophetic understanding.

And terms like historicist, idealist etc are terms that futher describe ones amillennialist position...

Jeffwhosoever · Feb 17, 2021

Historicism according to the book I'm reading is the idea that all of Revelation is past, but Idealism has nothing at all in common with amillenialism. Idealism is probably better termed symbolism as it is at least presented in three books as interpreting all of Revelation as entirely symboliic and not connected to any social, political or historical account of Revelation.

Scripturally based book recommendation or Eschatology

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Senior Member

Senior Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Senior Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Senior Member

:sighing:

Faithful Servant & Seminary Student

Faithful Servant & Seminary Student

Senior Member

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Well-Known Member

:sighing:

Faithful Servant & Seminary Student

Similar threads