Questions to Catholics and Orthodox: Re: Works/Salvation?

bbbbbbb

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It is very much like how a dog becomes a dog. Most, if not all, dogs are born as dogs. Some folks, however, think that until a puppy barks it is not really a dog. If the puppy meows, however, then they know it is really a cat and not a dog. Most folks, however, do agree that dogs don't give much thought about whether they are dogs and whether or not they have to bark to prove to folks that they are really dogs.
 
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bbbbbbb

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"Believe" remains a verb. Even if the "work" in question consists of nothing more than a series of chemical reactions taking place inside your brain, it is still a "work". So again, even people who believe in "faith alone" have to reconcile the fact that the word "believe" is an action, a verb, a work.

Faith, however, is not a verb, but a noun. It is a state of being.
 
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Mountainmike

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The passage you refer talks of strangers.
Nationality or religion I do not ask, know or care.

I do those things, not as much as I should. Where I live some of the year is very poor, they are suffering immensely now they cannot work because of COVID: it was not what they had for christmas dinner, but whether they had a christmas dinner, so food is a need that is growing at present. Visiting hospitals is not possible for obvious reasons - the group I belong to was in a campaign to provide warm clothing to prisoners who had none, in what is a very cold year



Out of curiosity, Do you Actually make it a point to deliberately visit Jews in prison, feed them and given shelter to them, and visit hospitalised Jews now, as Jesus instructed in the sheep and the goats lesson in Matthew 25:34-46?
 
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Guojing

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The passage you refer talks of strangers.
Nationality or religion I do not ask, know or care.

I do those things, not as much as I should. Where I live some of the year is very poor, they are suffering immensely now they cannot work because of COVID: it was not what they had for christmas dinner, but whether they had a christmas dinner, so food is a need that is growing at present. Visiting hospitals is not possible for obvious reasons - the group I belong to was in a campaign to provide warm clothing to prisoners who had none, in what is a very cold year

If you read the passage in Matthew 25:31-46 properly, Jesus was addressing "all the nations" (vs 32), a term which always refers to gentiles.

He spoke to them saying those who feed his "brethren" (vs 40), which is a biblical term denoting the Jewish brothers and sisters of Christ, as Jesus was born a Jew.

It is for good reason, during the 7 years of Tribulation, or Jacob's trouble, the antichrist will be persecuting all of Israel, and it will indeed become the responsibility of gentiles, if they want to be saved, to protect the Jews.

But my point is you are applying that passage in the wrong time period now. That passage will only apply during the Tribulation.
 
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Mountainmike

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And that is the problem with nit pickers.
They see only the hairs on the elephant. They miss the elephant completely.

I suggest you practice your argument for the judgement, when you tell our Lord "well, I didnt think you meant it, your theology is wrong because you used this word not that...."

As I have repeated on this thread several times.
Neither your faith NOR your works are enough to merit salvation. You rely on His GRACE alone, so woe betide you if you ignore our Lords ordinances.

The entire premise of arguing which group is meant? or pulling a verse out of context, Is to try to minimise what you need to do. But all of us are "the temple of the holy spirit" Jew and gentile alike. So if you do this for any, you do it for Him.
Colossians 3 11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

Tell me - how frequently do you take the eucharist, presided over by a bishop in succession which our Lord, and so John, so Johns disciples tell us is needed for you to be "raised up on the last day?"

Our Lord values obedience. Not nitpickers. It is what he disliked about the pharisees. Always nitpicking the law.

If you read the passage in Matthew 25:31-46 properly, Jesus was addressing "all the nations" (vs 32), a term which always refers to gentiles.

He spoke to them saying those who feed his "brethren" (vs 40), which is a biblical term denoting the Jewish brothers and sisters of Christ, as Jesus was born a Jew.

It is for good reason, during the 7 years of Tribulation, or Jacob's trouble, the antichrist will be persecuting all of Israel, and it will indeed become the responsibility of gentiles, if they want to be saved, to protect the Jews.

But my point is you are applying that passage in the wrong time period now. That passage will only apply during the Tribulation.
 
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Guojing

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And that is the problem with nit pickers.
They see only the hairs on the elephant. They miss the elephant completely.

I suggest you practice your argument for the judgement, when you tell our Lord "well, I didnt think you meant it, your theology is wrong because you used this word not that...."

As I have repeated on this thread several times.
Neither your faith NOR your works are enough to merit salvation. You rely on His GRACE alone, so woe betide you if you ignore our Lords ordinances.

The entire premise of arguing which group is meant? or pulling a verse out of context, Is to try to minimise what you need to do. But all of us are "the temple of the holy spirit" Jew and gentile alike. So if you do this for any, you do it for Him.
Colossians 3 11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

Tell me - how frequently do you take the eucharist, presided over by a bishop in succession which our Lord, and so John, so Johns disciples tell us is needed for you to be "raised up on the last day?"

Our Lord values obedience. Not nitpickers. It is what he disliked about the pharisees. Always nitpicking the law.

Are we still discussing the passage about the sheep and the goats, or are you now making another point?
 
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Mountainmike

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Clearly a reply: I have pointed out your attempt to segregate jew or gentile is false.
Would you ask a person starving or sick who they are before you deem them worthy of food or help? Is it your judgement call to make?


As the bible says, (if you read all of it!) "there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all." So would you leave Christ unattended on the grounds you think he is of wrong race? And if not, why pick nits on who sheep and goats refers?

As I keep pointing out, people are overthinking it. If Jesus says do it, just do it.
It does not matter if it is "works" if He says do it, it is Neccessary!
You rely on His Grace. So I suggest you do not pick nits. In discussing hairs on an elephant, you miss the elephant completely!

Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee!
Are we still discussing the passage about the sheep and the goats, or are you now making another point?
 
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Guojing

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Clearly a reply: I have pointed out your attempt to segregate jew or gentile is false.
Would you ask a person starving or sick who they are before you deem them worthy of food or help? Is it your judgement call to make?


As the bible says, (if you read all of it!) "there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all." So would you leave Christ unattended on the grounds you think he is of wrong race? And if not, why pick nits on who sheep and goats refers?

As I keep pointing out, people are overthinking it. If Jesus says do it, just do it.
It does not matter if it is "works" if He says do it, it is Neccessary!
You rely on His Grace. So I suggest you do not pick nits. In discussing hairs on an elephant, you miss the elephant completely!

Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee!

You are anticipating revelation by using the mystery revealed to Paul, to understand the sheep and the goat passage.

Its like the Canaanite lady who replies like what you are doing, after the Lord told her Matthew 15:24, "but As the bible says, (if you read all of it!) "there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all."

Jesus said what he meant and meant what he said there.

That was all I am saying. But alright, I understand you are rejecting it, so we can agree to disagree there.
 
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Mountainmike

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I think you should answer to make it clear:

Do you consider your duties under "sheep and goats" LIMITED to just a race (eg Jews) as your first post implied on some verses , or do you consider it extends to all mankind in need, regardless of race or faith, in which case why the post?

Do you consider your duties under sheep and goats NECESSARY for salvation? or an optional extra because your "faith" saves you?

I am just after clarity on both points.

You are anticipating revelation by using the mystery revealed to Paul, to understand the sheep and the goat passage.

Its like the Canaanite lady who replies like what you are doing, after the Lord told her Matthew 15:24, "but As the bible says, (if you read all of it!) "there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all."

Jesus said what he meant and meant what he said there.

That was all I am saying. But alright, I understand you are rejecting it, so we can agree to disagree there.
 
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Guojing

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I think you should answer to make it clear:

Do you consider your duties under "sheep and goats" LIMITED to just a race (eg Jews) as your first post implied on some verses , or do you consider it extends to all mankind in need, regardless of race or faith, in which case why the post?

Do you consider your duties under sheep and goats NECESSARY for salvation? or an optional extra because your "faith" saves you?

I am just after clarity on both points.

I was pointing to you what Jesus literally said in that passage. It is not for us now to change the meaning of words like "nations" and "brethren".

If one is not saved until the Tribulation finally occurs, yes, he would have to, among other things, specifically be helping to feed/shelter/giving clothes/visiting Jews in hospitals, if he wants to be considered saved at the end of the Tribulation.

Gentiles who wanted to be saved during those 7 years must, once again, be saved, thru blessing Israel directly. (Genesis 12:3, Deuteronomy 23:3-4)

So in that sense, I agree with you. Faith alone in death burial and resurrection of Christ will no longer save anyone during those 7 years.
 
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Mountainmike

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Which is the problem when protestants "proof text" ignoring both the meaning handed down (tradition) authority on what ie means, and consistency with the rest of scripture

Tell me. By what authority should we accept your personal opinion on it? When it contradicts the "pillar and foundation of truth"



I was pointing to you what Jesus literally said in that passage. It is not for us now to change the meaning of words like "nations" and "brethren".

If one is not saved until the Tribulation finally occurs, yes, he would have to, among other things, specifically be helping to feed/shelter/giving clothes/visiting Jews in hospitals, if he wants to be considered saved at the end of the Tribulation.

Gentiles who wanted to be saved during those 7 years must, once again, be saved, thru blessing Israel directly. (Genesis 12:3, Deuteronomy 23:3-4)

So in that sense, I agree with you. Faith alone in death burial and resurrection of Christ will no longer save anyone during those 7 years.
 
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Guojing

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Which is the problem when protestants "proof text" ignoring both the meaning handed down (tradition) authority on what ie means, and consistency with the rest of scripture

Tell me. By what authority should we accept your personal opinion on it? When it contradicts the "pillar and foundation of truth"

It’s not my opinion, it’s what the kjv English and the context meant.

Who are the brethren of Jesus? Why would they need help from the other nations during the tribulation that Jesus was describing in the previous chapter, Matthew 24?
 
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Mountainmike

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He speaks of the judgement on the basis of your record of past works of charity.
It does not matter how that comes to pass in M24 other than being alert to possible imminence of it, the criteria are clear.


Do you really walk past anyone you think is of the wrong race, checking your law book to see if you need to help them? What if they are in such poor shape they cannot answer when you ask them to fill in your form to discover eligibility for your help.

Have you prepared your theological treatise to explain to Jesus why you did not have to?

He clearly says "when you do it for one of the least of my brethren you do it for me" and elswhere tells you that is not restricted to family!

I think Your replies are those of a pharisee, picking nits with the law ignoring the spirit.



It’s not my opinion, it’s what the kjv English and the context meant.

Who are the brethren of Jesus? Why would they need help from the other nations during the tribulation that Jesus was describing in the previous chapter, Matthew 24?
 
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Danthemailman

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You may have grown up in the Catholic Church: It seems you were badly catechised. I came in from outside, I discovered many cradle catholics who didn’t know the basis of their faith, and so were victim to false challenges from outside.

But First work on your logic.
Necessary does not mean sufficient.
So not an oxymoron.
That is why you fail to see that saved by works is a false representation of the necessity to do them.

Compliance with one of our Lords ordinances does not allow you to ignore the rest, whatever verse you choose to bold. You need to read the rest, then the early fathers, tradition and authority to see what they mean.

Nor are you an automaton. You choose what you do each day. Our Lord chooses at the end whether you are saved.
The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works
 
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Mountainmike

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I suggest you ask a catholic, not an opponent of catholicism.

In simple logic.
Necessary does not mean sufficient.
Check any book on math or logic.
To become US president you must be an american by birth. (ie it is necessary)
Being american by birth does not make you president (ie it is not sufficient)

There is an election you have to win, and most will not be nominated, let alone win the election. Which is a far bigger ask that being born american.


The church says works are "necessary" So does scripture in many places, our Lord orders you to do certain things. Sheep and Goats an example.

The mischaracterization as saved by works is "works are sufficient". No catholic believes that.

Neither your faith NOR your works are sufficient to save you , you are saved by His grace alone.

When the just judge asks you "why do you think I should save you, when you did not do the the things I asked". Worse , you told others they did not have to.
Read Sheep and the goats where I tell you the reward you can expect since you did not.


 
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Guojing

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He speaks of the judgement on the basis of your record of past works of charity.
It does not matter how that comes to pass in M24 other than being alert to possible imminence of it, the criteria are clear.


Do you really walk past anyone you think is of the wrong race, checking your law book to see if you need to help them? What if they are in such poor shape they cannot answer when you ask them to fill in your form to discover eligibility for your help.

Have you prepared your theological treatise to explain to Jesus why you did not have to?

He clearly says "when you do it for one of the least of my brethren you do it for me" and elswhere tells you that is not restricted to family!

I think Your replies are those of a pharisee, picking nits with the law ignoring the spirit.

But we not in the tribulation now at this moment, so there is no need to fear any loss of salvation if you fail to follow the instructions in that passage.

In fact, we are now saved thru the fall of Israel (Romans 11:11)

But suppose you find yourself still on Earth during those 7 years, yes, helping Jesus Jewish brethren will be the one of the works required for your salvation, as stated in those ot passages that I have earlier used.

Salvation for gentiles then will once again be thru the rise of Israel (genesis 12:3)
 
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Mountainmike

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Let us hope you do not have cause to meet our Lord before that, to explain why you ignored what he asks!

But we not in the tribulation now at this moment, so there is no need to fear any loss of salvation if you fail to follow the instructions in that passage.

In fact, we are now saved thru the fall of Israel (Romans 11:11)

But suppose you find yourself still on Earth during those 7 years, yes, helping Jesus Jewish brethren will be the one of the works required for your salvation, as stated in those ot passages that I have earlier used.
 
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Guojing

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Let us hope you do not have cause to meet our Lord before that, to explain why you ignored what he asks!

He will be pleased with me because I follow Paul, as he follows Christ in instructing me as the apostle of the gentiles.
 
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Danthemailman

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I suggest you ask a catholic, not an opponent of catholicism.

In simple logic.
Necessary does not mean sufficient.
Check any book on math or logic.
To become US president you must be an american by birth. (ie it is necessary)
Being american by birth does not make you president (ie it is not sufficient)

There is an election you have to win, and most will not be nominated, let alone win the election. Which is a far bigger ask that being born american.

The church says works are "necessary" So does scripture in many places, our Lord orders you to do certain things. Sheep and Goats an example.

The mischaracterization as saved by works is "works are sufficient". No catholic believes that.

Neither your faith NOR your works are sufficient to save you , you are saved by His grace alone.

When the just judge asks you "why do you think I should save you, when you did not do the the things I asked". Worse ,you told others they did not have to.
Read Sheep and the goats where I tell you the reward you can expect since you did not.
Joe Mizzi who wrote the article is not merely an opponent of Roman Catholicism, but is a former Roman Catholic who was brought up in a devout Catholic family, so he gets it. .

Just for Catholics: About Us

I’m also a former Roman Catholic who gets it In regards to the parable of the sheep and goats, go back and read post #155.
 
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