In Australia Vic Government trying to pass laws that criminalise preaching

Confused-by-christianity

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You are entitled to believe whatever you like - but you shouldn't misrepresent what I said in all the posts we exchanged. Shalom.
I didn’t. But, I do believe you to be being wilfully dishonest. I don’t believe you care about God, Jesus, the faith or anyone else - for that reason, I’m going to simply place you on the ignore list, and just like that - problem solved.
 
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SilverBear

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I have found no evidence that homosexuality is a uniform trait
considering your trait of ignoring evidence that doesn't fit into your personal agenda that is hardly surprising.

or that it is a good idea to define oneself as gay or lesbian.
do you have anything beyond personal prejudice to back this up?

But I think we have been fed a big lie over the last fifty years about this and need to question what is really going on and stop listening so much to some of the naysayers.
the evidnece speaks for itself. Calling it a lie doesn't change the factual nature of that evidence.
 
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PloverWing

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@dms1972 , we may have some points of agreement.

I agree that families who want to adopt children should be assessed carefully, to ensure that they will be providing a good home for the child.

I don't really keep up with the Hollywood gossip, but I do occasionally hear stories of famous people undertaking marriages or adoptions in ways that don't seem to be creating happy, stable families, so I acknowledge that that can happen.

I am aware that sometimes people who are adopted become unhappy about having been given up for adoption, a feeling of having been rejected by their birth parents. Sometimes adoption is still the best alternative for a child, among the less-than-ideal alternatives that are available, but everyone involved in the child's life should be aware of this issue.

I have some misgivings about the creation of a child through sperm donation or surrogate motherhood. At the same time, I have never been through the pain of infertility, so I don't want to be quick to judge. Discussion of this would be way off-topic to the present conversation.

I agree that same-sex marriage, as we currently experience it in 21st-century American culture, was (as far as I know) unknown to the ancient Greeks and Romans. It is a point we should keep in mind as we read their literature.

The last question,

Now the question is why do some self described gays and lesbians seek many of the aspects of hetrosexual relationships - marriage, wedding rings and ceremony, children etc.?

is probably one that we cannot discuss on CF. Additionally, the rest of the paragraph suggests that the question was meant rhetorically. In any case, this topic would be a distraction from the question of the new Australian law, so I will set it aside.
 
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Paidiske

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which is what I said - what you don't approve of should be banned no matter what some people with SSA might want

You make it sound as if my disapproval is the point here. It isn't. The point is the objective and widespread harm.

God has placed people in the Church with helping skills and they are placed there to support a person who wants to pursue goals related to change or suppression.

Trying to change someone's sexual orientation or gender identity is not true "support." Not least because we know that we cannot create that change, and that we will be putting that person through the agony of failure, guilt, shame, and so on.

@Confused-by-christianity it's refreshing and encouraging to see someone unfamiliar with the issues not taken in by the overblown fear mongering.
 
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ken777

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Catholic Weekly: "The Victorian Law Institute, The Victorian branch of Australian Medical Association, the Victorian President of the Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists (RANZCP) joined ethics-based, activist and faith-based voices who also opposed the Bill."
 
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ken777

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Subclause (3) sets out some examples of a change or suppression practice, which includes providing a psychiatry or psychotherapy consultation, treatment or therapy or any other similar consultation, treatment or therapy and religious practices such as prayer based practice, a deliverance practice or exorcisms. Another example provided is giving a person a referral for the purposes of a change or suppression practice to be directed against them. These examples are illustrative only and do not narrow the definition in subclause (1) which is intended to capture a broad range of conduct, including, informal practices, such as conversations with a community leader that encourage change or suppression of sexual orientation or gender identity, and more formal practices, such as behaviour change programs and residential camps.
Explanatory Memorandum​
 
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ken777

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Ephesians 4
9 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed.
20 That, however, is not the way of life you learned
21 when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus.
22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;
23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds;
24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.​
 
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dms1972

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Trying to change someone's sexual orientation or gender identity is not true "support." Not least because we know that we cannot create that change, and that we will be putting that person through the agony of failure, guilt, shame, and so on.

There is some validity to your concerns and I totally agree it should be about providing real help not a pretense of help - but then what is real help?

On the one hand different people have different degrees of involvement in homosexuality - for some its never gone beyond fantasies (eg. pseudo-homosexuality), for some it extends to behaviour, for someone else their predominant involvement may be hetrosexual but they have had some incidental homosexual experiences - they may be married with a wife and kids. In other words some people can have a hetrosexual orientation but still occasionally experience homosexual feelings. The reasons some people have homosexual feelings may not be the same as for other people. Sexual Orientation on the other hand refers to an enduring pattern of sexual attraction and behaviour... not just occasional feelings. Some people with these feelings want to better understand what is going on with them - they don't want "gay affirmation" therapy when they are not "gay". And even if this bill doesn't outlaw them getting help - some counsellors may not want to get involved now. There are more people to be taken into account than LGB people here, some of whom are misrepresenting the work of Reparative therapists.
 
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Paidiske

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And even if this bill doesn't outlaw them getting help - some counsellors may not want to get involved?

I really think that's besides the point, though. This law is new and people are understandably unsure about how it might impact their practice etc (although I think we'll find most reputable practitioners end up having no problems at all). But the fact that the reason for the legislation is to prevent grievous harm ought to make people at least willing to work that stuff out, and if part of that is some counsellors avoiding this kind of practice for a time, then the harm is still being prevented, and that's an overall good thing.
 
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SilverBear

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There is some validity to your concerns and I totally agree it should be about providing real help not a pretense of help - but then what is real help?

On the one hand different people have different degrees of involvement in homosexuality - for some its never gone beyond fantasies (pseudo-homosexuality), for some it extends to behaviour, for someone else their predominant involvement may be hetrosexual but they have had some incidental homosexual experiences - they may be married with a wife and kids. In other words some people can have a hetrosexual orientation but still occasionally have homosexual feelings. The reasons some people have homosexual feelings may not be the same as for other people. Sexual Orientation on the other hand refers to an enduring pattern of sexual attractions... not just occasional feelings. Some people with these feelings want to better understand what is going on with them - they don't want "gay affirmation" therapy when they are not "gay". And even if this bill doesn't outlaw them getting help - some counsellors may not want to get involved now. There are more people to be taken into account than LGB people here, some of whom are misrepresenting the work of Reparative therapists.
correction: Sexual orientation refers to an individuals enduring pattern of emotional, romantic and/or sexual attractions to men, women or both sexes. Sexual orientation also refers to a person’s sense of identity based on those attractions
 
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dms1972

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But the fact that the reason for the legislation is to prevent grievous harm ought to make people at least willing to work that stuff out, and if part of that is some counsellors avoiding this kind of practice for a time, then the harm is still being prevented, and that's an overall good thing.

Sorry but a law could have been drafted which would deal with those actual therapies that where causing the harm, I mean aversion therapies. In other psychotherapies its not always possible to know how a client will respond with difficult issues even when a therapist is very careful with them. By your comments you have no experience of delivering psychotherapy. No one has a right to pontificate or judge that a therapist is doing harm and what is possible or not, unless they know something of the field.
 
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Paidiske

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Sure its beside the point for you. It's not beside the point for someone struggling and wanting to find a counsellor.

I say this not without some hesitation, but after consideration I still believe it to be true; better to find no counsellor than one who will harm you.

Sorry but a law could have been drafted which would deal with those actual therapies that where causing the harm, I mean aversion therapies.

Again, the problems here go far beyond aversion therapies. They are an obvious example but by no means the extent of the issue.

In other psychotherapies its not always possible to know how a client will respond with difficult issues even when a therapist is very careful with them. By your comments you have no experience of delivering psychotherapy. No one has a right to pontificate or judge that a therapist is doing harm and what is possible or not, unless they know something of the field.

And again, the issue is not limited to clinical settings or formal therapies.

No, I am not a psychotherapist. But I have every right to advocate for those at risk of harm, as demonstrated by extensive evidence. And every person has a right to name their own harm and have that heard.
 
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dms1972

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Again, the problems here go far beyond aversion therapies. They are an obvious example but by no means the extent of the issue.


Where is the evidence of your claims of harm beyond aversion therapies (I read someone say those had been banned 50 years ago?) - you haven't presented a shred of actual evidence except one instance of PTSD and someone who spoke to you about a deliverance attempt. And in all fairness a therapist's account has to be heard also if there is an accusation made. Rather than mention individual instances which would be due to individual therapists where is the body of scientific research showing a causal link between this sort therapy and harm? This talk of widespread harm seems a bit fictitious really. Like an attempt to discredit reparative therapy. But an attempt to do that by suppressing positive stories of change seems quite dishonest.

I have found more positive stories of people being helped than of harm done, I haven't seen or heard anything to warrant the criticism except that the existence of these therapists and their client's positive accounts of change seems to call into question some of the dubious ideas circulating about homosexuality.
 
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SilverBear

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Where is the evidence of your claims of harm beyond aversion therapists (I read someone say they had been banned 50 years ago) - you haven't presented a shred of actual evidence except one instance of PTSD and someone who spoke to you about a deliverance attempt. And in all fairness a therapist's account has to be heard also if there is an accusation made. Rather than mention individual instances which would be due to individual therapists where is the body of scientific research showing a causal link between this sort therapy and harm?
Amy Przeworski, Emily Peterson, Alexandra Piedra. A systematic review of the efficacy, harmful effects, and ethical issues related to sexual orientation change efforts. Clinical Psychology: Science and Practice 2020.

Steven Meanley, et al Lifetime Exposure to Conversion Therapy and Psychosocial Health Among Midlife and Older Adult Men Who Have Sex With Men. The Gerontologist 2020

Douglas C. Haldeman Therapeutic Antidotes: Helping Gay and Bisexual Men Recover from Conversion Therapies J of Psychotherapy 2008

Madison Higbee, Eric R. Wright, Ryan M. Roemerman. Conversion Therapy in the Southern United States: Prevalence and Experiences of the Survivors. Journal of Homosexuality 2020

Haldeman, Douglas C. The practice and ethics of sexual orientation conversion therapy. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 1994

Christi R. McGeorge, Thomas Stone Carlson, Russell B. Toomey. An Exploration of Family Therapists' Beliefs about the Ethics of Conversion Therapy: The Influence of Negative Beliefs and Clinical Competence With Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual Clients. Journal of Marital and Family Therapy 2015

Robert J. Cramer,Frank D. Golom,Charles T. LoPresto &Shalene M. Kirkley Weighing the Implications of Conversion Therapy Evidence: Empirical Assessment and Ethical journal of Ethics and Behavior Mar 2008

Alex R. Dopp. Treatment of Sexual Minority Youth: Ethical Considerations for Professionals in Psychology. Ethics & Behavior 2013

Jaco Van Zyl, Kathryn Nel, Saraswathie Govender. Reparative sexual orientation therapy effects on gay sexual identities. Journal of Psychology 2017

Julianne M. Serovich, Shonda M. Craft, Paula Toviessi, Rashmi Gangamma, Tiffany McDowell, Erika L. Grafsky. A Systematic Review of the Research Base on Sexual Reorientation Therapies. Journal of Marital and Family Therapy 2008

Julianne M. Serovich, Shonda M. Craft, Paula Toviessi, Rashmi Gangamma, Tiffany McDowell, Erika L. Grafsky. A Systematic Review of the Research Base on Sexual Reorientation Therapies. Journal of Marital and Family Therapy 2008

Experiences of Ex-Ex-Gay Individuals in Sexual Reorientation Therapy: Reasons for Seeking Treatment, Perceived Helpfulness and Harmfulness of Treatment, and Post-Treatment Identification 2016

Travis Salway, Olivier Ferlatte, Dionne Gesink, Nathan J. Lachowsky. Prevalence of Exposure to Sexual Orientation Change Efforts and Associated Sociodemographic Characteristics and Psychosocial Health Outcomes among Canadian Sexual Minority Men. The Canadian Journal of Psychiatry 2020

Annesa Flentje Experiences of Ex-Ex-Gay Individuals in Sexual Reorientation Therapy Journal of Homosexuality 2014

David J. Kinitz, Travis Salway, Elisabeth Dromer, Dean Giustini, Florence Ashley, Trevor Goodyear, Olivier Ferlatte, Hannah Kia, Alex Abramovich. The scope and nature of sexual orientation and gender identity and expression change efforts Systemic Review 2021

Talen Wright, Bridget Candy, Michael King. Conversion therapies and access to transition-related healthcare in transgender people: a narrative systematic review. BMJ 2018

Katie Heiden‐Rootes, Kristin Ross, Rachel Moore, Shah Hasan, Samantha Gulotta. Freedom and struggling openly in psychotherapy: A qualitative inquiry with LGBQ young adults from religious families. Journal of Marital and Family Therapy 2021

Megan C. Lytle, John R. Blosnich, Susan M. De Luca, Chris Brownson. Association of Religiosity With Sexual Minority Suicide Ideation and Attempt. American Journal of Preventive Medicine 2018

Paul L. Santero, Neil E. Whitehead, Dolores Ballesteros. Effects of Therapy on Religious Men Who Have Unwanted Same-Sex Attraction. The Linacre Quarterly 2018
 
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Paidiske

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Where is the evidence of your claims of harm beyond aversion therapists (I read someone say they had been banned 50 years ago) - you haven't presented a shred of actual evidence except one instance of PTSD and someone who spoke to you about a deliverance attempt.

I certainly have. Early in this thread I linked the Preventing Harm, Promoting Justice report, which was a far more in depth document than anything I could throw together as a forum post.

Rather than mention individual instances which would be due to individual therapists where is the body of scientific research showing a causal link between this sort therapy and harm? This talk of widespread harm seems a bit fictitious really. Like an attempt to demonise reparative therapists. But how many of them are there in Australia?

Again, go and look at the actual report which was prepared for the government as a preliminary part of preparing this legislation, and you will see why it is so necessary.
 
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dms1972

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Again, go and look at the actual report which was prepared for the government as a preliminary part of preparing this legislation, and you will see why it is so necessary.

I was aware of that report before this discussion and I have looked at it twice now since this thread has started. Thankyou for mentioning it as that allows me to offer some of my thoughts on it.

While I agree it expressed concerns that may have some validity - it nevertheless didn't impress me as a rigorous or even impartial study.

One of its more serious flaws was that it was heavily weighted towards mainly anecdotal evidence and a good deal of that was in the form of statements by individuals dissatisfied with the progress they had made on their own (post-therapy). By this undue weighting I think it betrays a tacit assumption - that sexual orientation change does not happen unless a 100% success rate was reported and that the theraputic modality, rather than an individual therapist or a client's level of motivation was always the reason for that. In reality many christian counsellors and reparative therapists working in this area never promise a "cure", they are circumspect to make a much more modest prognosis tailored to each client. Its unfair for someone to complain about not being cured if a therapist never promised that but only expressed a cautious optimism. Its hardly right to attribute a lack of individual progress post-therapy to a therapist no longer involved. By comparison a 100% sustainable success rate is not required to prove a modality is valid in any other field of psychotherapy - eg. CBT claims a measure of success in helping some people who are depressed but there are those who have not experienced it as helpful as others. Some have found CBT to be hellish and even been told in advance that therapy can be very unpleasant, does that mean its always harmful?

For example this account of CBT therapy.

My Journey to Hell and Back, A Personal Experience with CBT and ERP | International OCD Foundation

In conclusion it seems to me therefore that instances of harm in SOCEs need evaluted on an individual basis.

I think its good when a therapist looks at an individuals difficulties in the round, not just in relation to homosexuality. I think its a good thing that modalities such as Reparative therapy continue to be open to genuine critique and improvement. However the critique which would be most credible is one that is balanced, which takes into account stories of success as well as failure and is independent ie. not from proponents or opponents of SOCEs. While I agree there are valid concerns in regards to some sorts of SOCE, they should not be banned merely for political or ideological reasons, eg. appeasing the LGB lobby.
 
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dms1972

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Catholic Weekly: "The Victorian Law Institute, The Victorian branch of Australian Medical Association, the Victorian President of the Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists (RANZCP) joined ethics-based, activist and faith-based voices who also opposed the Bill."

Thanks for posting. That particular article had not come up in my search - it was interesting to know what some of the criticism pertains to, and where its coming from.
 
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Paidiske

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In conclusion it seems to me therefore that instances of harm in SOCEs need evaluted on an individual basis. Practitioners should look at a individuals struggles in the round and not automatically associate for instance depression and homosexuality. It should be seen as a good thing that modalities such as Reparative therapy continue to be open to genuine critique and improvement. However the critique which would be most credible is one that is balanced, which takes into account stories of success as well as failure and is independent ie. not from proponents or opponents of SOCEs. While I agree there are valid concerns in regards to some sorts of SOCE, they should not be banned merely for political or ideological reasons, eg. appeasing the LGB lobby.

I notice that you do not even acknowledge that many people experience, not only a lack of success, but incredible damage, from their "therapy."

That's why an individual only evaluation is not adequate. Because when something is causing widespread harm, even if there is a small minority it does not harm, the majority must still be protected.

And that's why this ban is in place; not just for political or ideological reasons, unless you think protecting the vulnerable from the unethical is an unacceptable ideology.
 
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dms1972

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I notice that you do not even acknowledge that many people experience, not only a lack of success, but incredible damage, from their "therapy."

Contra your assertion about me I have acknowledged some people are disappointed with SOCEs and some are disappointed with progress following them. I have said they are not for everyone and should not be pushed on anyone. I agree aversion therapies for sexual problems should be banned. I make a distinction between supportive psychotherapies and conversion therapies (such as aversion therapy which seeks to eliminate unwanted urges). However only someone ignorant of the literature about each could think they were similiar. I do not think complete sexual orientation change should be a goal of any therapy. I would strongly question whether merely having homosexual feelings indicates mental illness. However there are people who have these feelings and would like to avail themselves of help from non-aversive psychotherapy to diminish them, and IMO there is nothing wrong with that.

I haven't seen you acknowledge there are positive stories of progress, nor that this law could have unintended consequences - for that reason I find it hard to debate or discuss this with you. You want people to agree with your own take regardless of whether you are presenting a good argument for banning all SOCEs. Leaving aside politically driven assertions - I haven't come across anything like conclusive evidence which demonstates a causal linkage between SOCEs freely entered into and harm, except in regard to aversion therapy or when people are pushed against their wishes to engage in SOCEs. However I agree there could be harm done by simplistic practices and/or in connection to the anti-psychology stance of some fundamentalist christians, or overly optimistic promises of "cures". I have acknowledged there are people who experience lack of success (however they measured success?) but I linked to a 6 year longitudinal study into both efficacy and harm and it did not find anything like what anti-SOCE people are claiming.
 
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