Non-Christians going to hell and gay marriage

JW876 · Feb 7, 2021

I'm very sorry for raising the questions, if they breach CF rules. Thank you so much for offering your views on both anyway, really useful thank you. Please feel free to remove the thread if neccessary!

hedrick said:
You've stumbled on two of the most contentious issues for CF. Neither can really be discussed here under CF rules.

* There are many discussions in Controversial Christian Theology about hell. I'd refer you there. Jesus mentioned judgement, and so do various NT writers. The traditional Christian understanding is that this means eternal torture. As you'll see in Controversial Theology, not everyone agrees. Some think that the punishment is eventually over. There have been people throughout Christian history who think that eventually everyone will be saved. You can make a case that Paul taught this. But it's a minority view. Since there are many good discussions of this in Controversial Theology, I refer you there.

* The NT talks about Christ coming to save us. A few places say he's the only savior. But it never flat-out says that all non-Christians are damned. It's fairly common for Christians to think that it's possible for people to be saved who accept Jesus' ideas without realizing that he's the savior. That seems to be the current Catholic position, and among Protestants it was held by Wesley and many that follow him. Evangelical Christianity generally holds that only actual faith in Christ saves. While alternatives to hell (as described in the previous bullet) are a minority, I'd say at least half of Christians think some non-Christians may be saved.

* Gay marriage can't be defended anywhere in CF except a couple of denominational forums and the Liberal forum. Opposition is based on traditional interpretations of Bible passages talking about the roles of men and women, and a couple of passages that may (or may not) condemn homosexuality. My position can be found in the discussions in the Liberal forum. At this point in the US, many Christians are OK with gay marriage. The data I've seen says it's about 50 / 50, with a majority of Catholics and liberal Protestants accepting it and conservative Protestants rejecting it. There are major differences among Christians as to how we view the Bible. Do we see it as a eternal rule book, or do we think that it reflects to some extent the culture of those who wrote it. Those who take the first view generally reject gay marriage, while the second generally accept it.

CF tends to have a conservative membership, and its rules treat liberal views as suspect. Thus discussions here often don't reflect the full variety of Christian views in the real world.

One post asks whether it makes sense to be a Christian if you don't think it's the only way to avoid hell. There was a recent discussion about that. Most posters believed that without the threat of hell, it didn't make sense to be a Christian. For them, doubting that non-Christians will be tormented forever is an attack on Christianity, because the whole point of Jesus was to save us from that. I think Jesus gave us a better way to live. Faith in him, and through him God, is a good thing. We shouldn't need to be threatened with eternal torture to want to follow Jesus.

You and your friend should think about this, because it goes to the core of who Jesus was and what he wants of us. In general terms, the NT talks about two purposes for Jesus: establishing the Kingdom of God on earth, and saving people. Most types of Christianity emphasize one or the other, although everyone accepts both to some extent. If Jesus main goal was to reconnect us to God through faith in him, and get us to live the way God wants, then eternal hell isn't essential. If his main purpose was to save us from hell, then of course it is.

JW876 · Feb 7, 2021

Thank you so much for everyone's support on the 2 questions. That's all really helped. Thank you, really appreciate it. God bless.

Basil the Great · Feb 7, 2021

santiago77 said:
Hello There.. The Peace of Jesus, The Jewish "Christ" who is the Holy Spirit, The Eternal Father, Son of God and Son of man, The God of Abraham and the Living God in His Holy human nature, be with you... YOu sayL<<Only God decides who will and who will not be saved. Some believe that at the moment of death, God offers a chance for salvation to either some, most or even all who would otherwise not be saved. We simply do not know. The Bible does not confirm such, but neither does it specifically rule out the possibility.

<< So! For you every warning the Holy Spirit left...means..00000000000!!! So it was worth for Him dying for nothing?!!! Brother James....[/QUOTE]
I am not a Catholic, but I think perhaps we all should consider what the Catholic Church now teaches on this subject. Many/most of us here at CF know that in the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church taught through saints, theologians and especially three Papal Bulls that were once considered infallible, that one absolutely had to die a Catholic Christian or else had no chance of going to Heaven. However, the Catholic Church no longer teaches such. Rather, it now says that due to the doctrine of "invincible ignorance", it is possible for non-Catholic Christians, Muslims, Jews and others to have a chance of being saved, even if they do not convert in this lifetime. Having said this, the Church does not pretend to say how likely it is for non-Christians to be saved, but at least it leaves open the door for God to decide.

While I have mixed feelings about the term "invincible ignorance" and that is why I almost always put it in quotes, it does serve the purpose of allowing God to be God and not for us to proclaim with certainty something that only God knows. Yes, I am well aware of the consequences of such a position. There is no doubt that it diminishes the urgent call to proclaim the Gospel and convert as many people as possible, as soon as possible. Having said this, the fact remains that in this age of Modernism, not only the Catholic Church has come to the view that it simply cannot proclaim with authority that all non-Christians are going to Hell, but I dare say that most Mainline Protestants agree with said position and even some Evangelicals, especially younger ones, are starting come around to said viewpoint. Most here at CF seem to disagree with me, but I believe that the horrors of the two World Wars of the 20th Century was a big factor in both Catholics and Protestants, and probably many Orthodox as well, changing their view regarding the certainty of the salvation status of non-Catholics, non-Orthodox. non-Protestants, Jews, Muslims and others.

I recall when the Czech leader Dubcek referred to his brand of Communism as "Socialism with a human face". Well, few here at CF will like my using this phrase, but it does ring true. Having Christians in the 20th and 21st Centuries reverse course and now say that not all non-Christians are not necessarily doomed to Hell, is "Christianity with a human face". Note, this position does now appear to be that of a majority of the world's Christians and probably a significant majority. Does this make it right? No, it does not mean that it automatically makes it right. Still, it does make the Christian message much more appealing, both to Christians and non-Christians, if the door of salvation is left open a crack for those who do not convert during this lifetime.

Will I stand here and try to claim that this position is consistent with the New Testament or 1,900 years of Christian tradition? No, I will be honest and admit that this viewpoint is absolutely not consistent with a strict interpretation of the New Testament or with Christian tradition. Nevertheless, it does appear that a significant majority of Christians in the world today refuse to close the door of salvation on all non-Christians, but rather prefer to leave it up to God as to who will and who will not be saved.

Jaxxi · Feb 8, 2021

mary.jen said:
Hi,

I have a friend who is exploring Christianity further and has sent me a message to say she's struggling to get over the fact that one of her Christian friends 1. believes non-Christians go to hell and 2. doesn't support gay marriage. She can't get on board with either, being confused as to why they would be the case if Jesus's main teaching was love.

I agree with her friend on the former although not the latter, but admit I have difficulty when it comes to explaining both. I wondered whether anyone may have any tips to offer? And feel free to channel my viewpoints too!

Thanks so much.

Jesus main message was not just love. It was loving and obeying God and His laws. Jesus was not a hippie. He is the Son of God and He spoke more about hell than anyone in the Bible. His message was to believe in Him and you would not go to hell. We all know that God forbids and is opposed to homosexuality. That is like saying you have a friend who sleeps with animals but Gods message is love so why isn't this ok? It is not the natural order of things. Men are to be with women to have children. Having sex for pleasure is fornication. There is no purpose for a man to have sex with a man since they cannot have a child. That is the realistic logic behind it. Lust is a sin. Perversion is a sin. Homosexuality is of the devil because it is not of God. If someone is homosexual they do not need to act on it. I feel bad for your friend but that is just the way it is. Man did not make the rules.

Sophrosyne · Feb 8, 2021

Here it is in a nutshell
1) We are saved by believing (putting faith in God's gift of salvaion in Jesus)
2) We need to be saved because of sin
3) Homosexual sex is a sin and gay marriage is likely a vehicle to encourage it
4) Gay married people can be saved, but if they truly have faith in God they will not want to continue living in sin.
5) Although there may be another way God "can" save people we do NOT know of any and trying to count on God doing something that he has not said he will do is a huge risk that believer should not encourage people to do.
In other words the chance of salvation without the cross is to us.... zero and to even suggest God will save otherwise is to lead people who want heaven and to sneak in without an invitation.
It is like telling people jumping out of a plane to grab a pillow and pray instead of warning them to wear a parachute and know how to use it.

Jaxxi · Feb 8, 2021

Sophrosyne said:
Here it is in a nutshell
1) We are saved by believing (putting faith in God's gift of salvaion in Jesus)
2) We need to be saved because of sin
3) Homosexual sex is a sin and gay marriage is likely a vehicle to encourage it
4) Gay married people can be saved, but if they truly have faith in God they will not want to continue living in sin.
5) Although there may be another way God "can" save people we do NOT know of any and trying to count on God doing something that he has not said he will do is a huge risk that believer should not encourage people to do.
In other words the chance of salvation without the cross is to us.... zero and to even suggest God will save otherwise is to lead people who want heaven and to sneak in without an invitation.
It is like telling people jumping out of a plane to grab a pillow and pray instead of warning them to wear a parachute and know how to use it.

How can gay married people be saved when marriage is between a man and a woman? The Lord did not spare any homosexuals at Sodom and Gomorrah. If they are married are they not going to fornicate? In order to be saved wouldn't they need to repent and abstain from gay sex permanently? This could be achieved but how likely is that? This is a delicate topic I understand but it should be spelled out for people to understand exactly what it would take to be saved from this sin. Their eternal lives depend on it. I know but do not understand why homosexuality and sin are frowned upon discussing on this forum when it is Biblical and must be addressed for people to understand what they are risking and for them to decide if it is worth it. If we do not tell them how will they know? I mean it is not our personal opinion we are expressing- it is Gods word and God should NEVER be censored.

Sophrosyne · Feb 8, 2021

Jaxxi said:
How can gay married people be saved when marriage is between a man and a woman? The Lord did not spare any homosexuals at Sodom and Gomorrah. If they are married are they not going to fornicate? In order to be saved wouldn't they need to repent and abstain from gay sex permanently? This could be achieved but how likely is that? This is a delicate topic I understand but it should be spelled out for people to understand exactly what it would take to be saved from this sin. Their eternal lives depend on it. I know but do not understand why homosexuality and sin are frowned upon discussing on this forum when it is Biblical and must be addressed for people to understand what they are risking and for them to decide if it is worth it. If we do not tell them how will they know? I mean it is not our personal opinion we are expressing- it is Gods word and God should NEVER be censored.

Does God save people while they are sinners or only save people who sit down and clean up the sins in their lives and get right with him FIRST or does he save people while they are sinners?
The Bible says God LOVED us while we were sinners IMO our sinful condition doesn't matter to him prior to salvation as he won't love a married homosexual couple LESS when married than he would after the denounce homosexuality and undo the marriage.

Jaxxi · Feb 9, 2021

Sophrosyne said:
Does God save people while they are sinners or only save people who sit down and clean up the sins in their lives and get right with him FIRST or does he save people while they are sinners?
The Bible says God LOVED us while we were sinners IMO our sinful condition doesn't matter to him prior to salvation as he won't love a married homosexual couple LESS when married than he would after the denounce homosexuality and undo the marriage.

God LOVES everyone who is in hell. God LOVES satan! It does not mean they will be saved!
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality 1 Corinthians 6:9

So think what you want but it is very clear.

SilverBear · Feb 9, 2021

Jaxxi said:
How can gay married people be saved when marriage is between a man and a woman? The Lord did not spare any homosexuals at Sodom and Gomorrah.

He spared only three heterosexuals and zero children

Sophrosyne · Feb 9, 2021

Jaxxi said:
God LOVES everyone who is in hell. God LOVES satan! It does not mean they will be saved!
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality 1 Corinthians 6:9

So think what you want but it is very clear.

The problem here is ALL who get saved are "in sin" prior to it, none are righteous regardless of how much they repent only the cross can give them right standing before God. Paul was in ways WORSE than a gay married couple as he murdered believers yet God saved him too. God doesn't force people to get saved so regardless of the current sinful condition of ANYONE that accepts Jesus, he won't turn them down because they are not "cleaning up their act" prior to accepting him.
I believe some sinful nature is almost impossible to defeat without help from the Holy Spirit so many will be living in sin at the exact time that they are on their knees asking God to save them.

Direct Driver · Feb 9, 2021

First, regarding the lost Suffering in Hell, just go here: Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

Regarding same sex marriage, they need to understand that it is not "marriage". When the SCOTUS legalized it, what they actually did was, via the force of the court, redefine the word, "marriage". A first, I believe.

I believe homosexuals should be able to legally do whatever they want in the privacy of their own homes (I'm not talking about meth labs, etc.), but to legally protect it under the word, "Marriage" violates not only Christian sense, but biology and why we protect marriage in the first place. It is, quite literally, STUPID, technically speaking. And the stupidity comes from ignoring reality to satisfy their own narcissism.

Also, school them on "tough love". Love does not mean "anything goes".

SilverBear · Feb 9, 2021

Direct Driver said:
First, regarding the lost Suffering in Hell, just go here: Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

Regarding same sex marriage, they need to understand that it is not "marriage". When the SCOTUS legalized it, what they actually did was, via the force of the court, redefine the word, "marriage". A first, I believe.

you are forgetting 1968

I believe homosexuals should be able to legally do whatever they want in the privacy of their own homes (I'm not talking about meth labs, etc.), but to legally protect it under the word, "Marriage" violates not only Christian sense, but biology and why we protect marriage in the first place. It is, quite literally, STUPID, technically speaking. And the stupidity comes from ignoring reality to satisfy their own narcissism.

Also, school them on "tough love". Love does not mean "anything goes".

good thing no one is saying that

ViaCrucis · Feb 11, 2021

mary.jen said:
Hi,

I have a friend who is exploring Christianity further and has sent me a message to say she's struggling to get over the fact that one of her Christian friends 1. believes non-Christians go to hell and 2. doesn't support gay marriage. She can't get on board with either, being confused as to why they would be the case if Jesus's main teaching was love.

I agree with her friend on the former although not the latter, but admit I have difficulty when it comes to explaining both. I wondered whether anyone may have any tips to offer? And feel free to channel my viewpoints too!

Thanks so much.

Christianity has no dogmatic answer about "who goes to hell". The idea that all non-Christians go to hell is an idea that is generally pretty common within modern Evangelical and Fundamentalist circles, but this has never been a dogma of the Christian faith. Rather, there has always been a diversity of views and opinions.

As it pertains to same sex marriage, that's a topic that by-and-large can't even be discussed on Christian Forums, as such I'll refrain from talking about it.

-CryptoLutheran

Hazelelponi · Feb 11, 2021

Basil the Great said:
I am not a Catholic, but I think perhaps we all should consider what the Catholic Church now teaches on this subject. Many/most of us here at CF know that in the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church taught through saints, theologians and especially three Papal Bulls that were once considered infallible, that one absolutely had to die a Catholic Christian or else had no chance of going to Heaven. However, the Catholic Church no longer teaches such. Rather, it now says that due to the doctrine of "invincible ignorance", it is possible for non-Catholic Christians, Muslims, Jews and others to have a chance of being saved, even if they do not convert in this lifetime. Having said this, the Church does not pretend to say how likely it is for non-Christians to be saved, but at least it leaves open the door for God to decide.

While I have mixed feelings about the term "invincible ignorance" and that is why I almost always put it in quotes, it does serve the purpose of allowing God to be God and not for us to proclaim with certainty something that only God knows. Yes, I am well aware of the consequences of such a position. There is no doubt that it diminishes the urgent call to proclaim the Gospel and convert as many people as possible, as soon as possible. Having said this, the fact remains that in this age of Modernism, not only the Catholic Church has come to the view that it simply cannot proclaim with authority that all non-Christians are going to Hell, but I dare say that most Mainline Protestants agree with said position and even some Evangelicals, especially younger ones, are starting come around to said viewpoint. Most here at CF seem to disagree with me, but I believe that the horrors of the two World Wars of the 20th Century was a big factor in both Catholics and Protestants, and probably many Orthodox as well, changing their view regarding the certainty of the salvation status of non-Catholics, non-Orthodox. non-Protestants, Jews, Muslims and others.

I recall when the Czech leader Dubcek referred to his brand of Communism as "Socialism with a human face". Well, few here at CF will like my using this phrase, but it does ring true. Having Christians in the 20th and 21st Centuries reverse course and now say that not all non-Christians are not necessarily doomed to Hell, is "Christianity with a human face". Note, this position does now appear to be that of a majority of the world's Christians and probably a significant majority. Does this make it right? No, it does not mean that it automatically makes it right. Still, it does make the Christian message much more appealing, both to Christians and non-Christians, if the door of salvation is left open a crack for those who do not convert during this lifetime.

Will I stand here and try to claim that this position is consistent with the New Testament or 1,900 years of Christian tradition? No, I will be honest and admit that this viewpoint is absolutely not consistent with a strict interpretation of the New Testament or with Christian tradition. Nevertheless, it does appear that a significant majority of Christians in the world today refuse to close the door of salvation on all non-Christians, but rather prefer to leave it up to God as to who will and who will not be saved.

Galatians 1:8 "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!"

2 Timothy 4:3 "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

Paul after 14 years of preaching and teaching went to Jerusalem to make certain he was teaching properly, in accordance with the faith the disciples taught... (Galatians 2:1-7), everything we as Christians teach must align with Scripture, as our infallible source of guidance. So:

"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6

It doesn't get any more clear than that.

Silverback · Feb 13, 2021

mary.jen said:
Hi,

I have a friend who is exploring Christianity further and has sent me a message to say she's struggling to get over the fact that one of her Christian friends 1. believes non-Christians go to hell and 2. doesn't support gay marriage. She can't get on board with either, being confused as to why they would be the case if Jesus's main teaching was love.

I agree with her friend on the former although not the latter, but admit I have difficulty when it comes to explaining both. I wondered whether anyone may have any tips to offer? And feel free to channel my viewpoints too!

Thanks so much.

We are saved by Gods grace, for Christ sake, through faith. No one comes to the father except through Jesus Christ...no one. God knows those whom he chooses to save, these people will hear, and respond to the gospel with saving faith and know one will be able to snatch them from Gods hand. Remember, those who will be saved had their names written in the book of life before the foundation of the world... It's a done deal, the saved are already washed clean with the blood of the lamb.

In reference to gay marriage, homosexuality is condemned in both the old and new testament. Marriage that is pleasing to God is strictly between one man, and one woman, united for life, being faithful to each other until death.

That being said, 50% of first marriages fail, and subsequent marriages fail at higher rates. Is this pleasing to God? no, neither is adultery, inappropriate contentography, fornication, online affairs, or any other type of sexual sins, and they are just as condemning in Gods eyes as homosexuality, and gay marriage.

GBY

GodLovesCats · Feb 13, 2021

Basil the Great said:
Only God decides who will and who will not be saved. Some believe that at the moment of death, God offers a chance for salvation to either some, most or even all who would otherwise not be saved. We simply do not know. The Bible does not confirm such, but neither does it specifically rule out the possibility.

God wants everyone to love and accept Jesus as the Lord and Savior. The Bible is clear about that. Sadly, not everyone can have an opportunity to learn the Gospel and choose to follow Jesus. So the question for us is whether those people who do not love the triune God because they live in non-Christian regions and have no access to the Bible are doomed to hell because they do not know what constitutes sin as written. I believe they are, but wish I could be proven wrong.

GodLovesCats · Feb 13, 2021

Maria Billingsley said:
Welcome! The only people who will suffer the second death, some call it hell, are those who reject Jesus Christ of Nazareth. They hate Him. So why would they want to be with someone they hate? As far as gay marriage, it is a secular arrangement and has nothing to do with a Spiritual union. Blessings.

Doesn't the Bible say every sinner who does not believe in Jesus will definitely suffer the second death? It is not always refusing to love Him, but also denying what and who He is.

Gay/lesbian marriage is a relatively modern phenomenon. The Bible might be clear on who can marry but back then many marriages were arranged by the parents.

Maria Billingsley · Feb 14, 2021

ChristianForCats said:
Doesn't the Bible say every sinner who does not believe in Jesus will definitely suffer the second death? It is not always refusing to love Him, but also denying what and who He is.

Gay/lesbian marriage is a relatively modern phenomenon. The Bible might be clear on who can marry but back then many marriages were arranged by the parents.

Yes, that would be rejecting Him.
Same sex marriage is a secular act no matter when it happens.

East of Eden · Mar 2, 2021

mary.jen said:
Hi,

I have a friend who is exploring Christianity further and has sent me a message to say she's struggling to get over the fact that one of her Christian friends 1. believes non-Christians go to hell and 2. doesn't support gay marriage. She can't get on board with either, being confused as to why they would be the case if Jesus's main teaching was love.

I agree with her friend on the former although not the latter, but admit I have difficulty when it comes to explaining both. I wondered whether anyone may have any tips to offer? And feel free to channel my viewpoints too!

Thanks so much.

I would have to reject your friend's premise that Jesus's main teaching was love, that's only part of His message, He spoke of hell and judgement a whole lot. She appears to be a believer in Moralistic Therapeutic Deism, the general belief that God exists, and wants nothing more from us than to be nice and to be happy.

East of Eden · Mar 2, 2021

Jaxxi said:
Here is the deal. Before Jesus Christ came to earth, EVERYONE went to Hades.

Even Elijah who never died but was taken up to heaven?

Non-Christians going to hell and gay marriage

Active Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Half-ready for Anything.....

Let Your Light Shine.. Matt 5:16

Half-ready for Anything.....

Let Your Light Shine.. Matt 5:16

Half-ready for Anything.....

Well-Known Member

Let Your Light Shine.. Matt 5:16

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Confessional Lutheran

:sighing:

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads