How could we survive the horrors of heaven?

Aug 4, 2006
3,868
1,065
.
✟95,047.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
All it says is that we can not imagine the things God has in store for us. The bble does give hints here and there---it does say we will build houses, we will plant things, there wil be animals, there will be no 0cean, but nothing states that there will not be large lakes. At the first creation God made animals. It says the lion will lie down with the Lamb. God instructed Adam and Eve to tend the garden, so we will have gardens. It is fun to think of all the possibilties. I oftern think about it, usually when I'm in bed, I fall asleep thinking about things we will be able to do. It says we will drink the juice of the vines, so there must be cups and plates and utensils---I've allways had an interst in pottery making and hope I get to learn that. We have no end of things to do-God means for us to be productive. Not sitting around on clouds playing our harps--maybe learn to paint---besides stick figures! We can develop any skill GBod has gi8ven us over centuries. \We wiolo have a country h90me and a city h9ome at least---Jezsus said He has gone to prepasre a place for us. We willo be i9n heaven for those 1000 years first, so we have the city homes Jesus Himself has made for us. Then we come back to earth---Jesus remakes it, and we get to build our own home, or homes, wherever we want. Some things we don't know---will we be able to cook or is everything just plucked off the trees and vines ---I love to cook and wonder about that. And then therer would be pots and pans---I'll take a gold and copper set --- I love to bake, wonder if we will be able to --which then involves wheat and making flour---I can go on all night about it!!---diamond door knobs!! You can get very crazy with this---it does say the streets are paved with gold!
In that case, can I ask you about the question in this thread?

How will you feel if whatever human you love most in the whole world goes to hell while you are in heaven? While you are spending eternity doing all these wonderful things, how will you feel to know that the person you love is roasting on a spit forever?
 
Upvote 0

Petros2015

Well-Known Member
Jun 23, 2016
5,091
4,327
52
undisclosed Bunker
✟289,335.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Honestly - yes. no support at all. I don't think you can make a case for the human soul being split into good and evil

Aye, but you have heard of similar concepts under different names such as purgatory or refinement - you've heard them applied and seen them historically misapplied to generate fear or profit or control or a gruesome indulgence of sadistic justice satisfaction fantasies. But the end result is a separation, a split if you will, of the impurities from something that was mixed and mingled.

All I've really done is to anthropomorphize the perspectives of both the purity and the impurity ;)
I'm pretty sure there's at least ONE perspective present
But if there's 2, I expect one calls it Heaven and the other Hell
As Einstein once said, "it's all relative"

There are pictures of this here in the natural world, if one were to look for them.

upload_2021-2-13_8-49-22.png


Amusingly, the electrolysis process requires an electrolyte in the water. Such as Copper Sulphate.
But, Salt will do in a pinch.

Matthew 5:13

Also, apparently it requires a Sacrifice...

and have never heard any Christians say such a thing.

May I ask you a question? (and I waive site policy protection on this question for you and only you)
Do you consider me a Christian?
If not, what is your definition?
If so, please amend your statement in the future from "never heard any" to "once heard one" ;)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Par5

Well-Known Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,013
653
78
LONDONDERRY
✟69,175.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
All it says is that we can not imagine the things God has in store for us. The bble does give hints here and there---it does say we will build houses, we will plant things, there wil be animals, there will be no 0cean, but nothing states that there will not be large lakes. At the first creation God made animals. It says the lion will lie down with the Lamb. God instructed Adam and Eve to tend the garden, so we will have gardens. It is fun to think of all the possibilties. I oftern think about it, usually when I'm in bed, I fall asleep thinking about things we will be able to do. It says we will drink the juice of the vines, so there must be cups and plates and utensils---I've allways had an interst in pottery making and hope I get to learn that. We have no end of things to do-God means for us to be productive. Not sitting around on clouds playing our harps--maybe learn to paint---besides stick figures! We can develop any skill GBod has gi8ven us over centuries. \We wiolo have a country h90me and a city h9ome at least---Jezsus said He has gone to prepasre a place for us. We willo be i9n heaven for those 1000 years first, so we have the city homes Jesus Himself has made for us. Then we come back to earth---Jesus remakes it, and we get to build our own home, or homes, wherever we want. Some things we don't know---will we be able to cook or is everything just plucked off the trees and vines ---I love to cook and wonder about that. And then therer would be pots and pans---I'll take a gold and copper set --- I love to bake, wonder if we will be able to --which then involves wheat and making flour---I can go on all night about it!!---diamond door knobs!! You can get very crazy with this---it does say the streets are paved with gold!
Sounds wonderful, but would I be able to play golf? Does heaven have golf courses? Would hate to think I had to spend eternity without getting at least a few rounds in. That wouldn't be heaven, that would be hell!
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
In that case, can I ask you about the question in this thread?

How will you feel if whatever human you love most in the whole world goes to hell while you are in heaven? While you are spending eternity doing all these wonderful things, how will you feel to know that the person you love is roasting on a spit forever?


I do not believe the bibloe teaches an everlasting hell. There is a hell, all the wi9cked will go to it---and they burn "according to their works. So I'm sure that those that have the greeatesty sins, such as Hitler, will suffer longer, but they all will dioe berfore the easrth is remade. I have a brother that died doing drugs, I have my real mother that did some bad things. I have no doubt that during the 1000 years we will know what all have done and we will acknowledge that God's sentence is just---but I'm sure we will cry for them. After we die, our memories of them will beforgotten. Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

But God remembers them for eternity and He will sorrow for them. But if He forgets our sins, when we ask, then I guess He can make Himself forget them. His sorrow for them is much greater than ours, for He knows what they could have been, and that they could have been with Him, also. He will wipe out the memories that would hurt us---but He alone can make Himself forget them, and He may sorrow for them for eternity.
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Sounds wonderful, but would I be able to play golf? Does heaven have golf courses? Would hate to think I had to spend eternity without getting at least a few rounds in. That wouldn't be heaven, that would be hell!


LOL!! I don't see why there would not be golf! You can make your own golf cpourse in your own back yard.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Halbhh
Upvote 0

Jesse Dornfeld

Slave to Christ
Site Supporter
Oct 11, 2020
3,345
1,109
37
Twin Cities
Visit site
✟176,653.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
I think, Halbhh (and @True Counterphobia may be interested in this as well) that you have misinterpreted Isaiah. You have to read it in context, and understand what he was saying. He was not prophesying Jesus Christ's second coming. He was not talking about Jesus at all. Isaiah was talking about the nation of Israel, not individual worshippers of God. He was saying that Israel's sins would be forgotten, and that God would forget and forgive all the things they had done wrong.

That aside, however, what you appear to believe is that in heaven, you will quite simply forget the sufferings of any loved ones you have who are in hell. Is that correct?

I would ask you how you know Isaiah isn't actually talking about the new heavens and new earth which are mentioned in Revelation.
 
Upvote 0

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Site Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,184
9,196
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,157,377.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Just exactly what is your meaning with this?
I am being called? Why?

I'll edit for clarity. That post was in response to the OP. I wanted to remind every person in the thread that we will forget this world because scripture says we will, contrary to the suggestion in the OP (post#1) that it is merely a "childish" hope. It's the opposite.
 
Upvote 0

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Site Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,184
9,196
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,157,377.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think, Halbhh (and @True Counterphobia may be interested in this as well) that you have misinterpreted Isaiah. You have to read it in context, and understand what he was saying. He was not prophesying Jesus Christ's second coming. He was not talking about Jesus at all. Isaiah was talking about the nation of Israel, not individual worshippers of God. He was saying that Israel's sins would be forgotten, and that God would forget and forgive all the things they had done wrong.

That aside, however, what you appear to believe is that in heaven, you will quite simply forget the sufferings of any loved ones you have who are in hell. Is that correct?

Full context and real listening is the only way to understand. Though I've read fully through Isaiah four times, I still humbly listen.

If you listen, you read sympathetically. It's the key to good reading.
 
Upvote 0

Kenny'sID

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 28, 2016
18,185
7,003
69
USA
✟585,394.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Well, of course, as an atheist, I don't think there is a hell to describe in the first place.
And it's true, nobody I have ever met, read or heard of has been able to give a perfect description of hell.
However, many Christians have told me or written that hell is a Very Bad Place, in which the condemned soul will suffer endlessly. For the purposes of this thread, that would seem to be sufficient for me to ask Christians how they would feel if they were in heaven and loved ones were in hell.

I would need more, but no matter, that hasn't happened and propably won't.

This from post 56 seems to say it all:

 
Upvote 0

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Site Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,184
9,196
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,157,377.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
and

That's nice. So that means I shall go to heaven, because I am an atheist who is a very loving person.

and

So if I understand correctly, you are saying that if you went to heaven and your loved ones - your little child, your mother, your best friend from childhood, whoever - went to hell, then you would either:
1. Completely forget about them, so that while they suffered for eternity you would be enjoying paradise.
2. Be happy that they went to hell, because you don't want them in heaven.

Is that correct?
Do you love all your neighbors? Most people fall short.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Aug 4, 2006
3,868
1,065
.
✟95,047.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I would ask you how you know Isaiah isn't actually talking about the new heavens and new earth which are mentioned in Revelation.
The thing is, Isaiah was not a Christian. He was an Israelite. He was not preparing the world for Christianity. He had no ideas Christianity was coming. All he was doing was giving an inspirational message about how things looked bad for Israel at the time that he was speaking, but God would make the nation of his believers great again.
If you read Isaiah in context, you see that he isn't talking about the fate of individual worshippers of Yahweh, much less Christians; he is talking about the fate of the country of Israel.
It is possible that he was speaking of a transformation of the earth and heavens, but more likely it was hyperbole, indicating how amazing the new Israel would become. Regardless, when he spoke of things being forgotten, he was not saying that individual people will forget things, especially not that they would forget about people who were in hell while they were in heaven. He was saying that Israel's sins and flaws would be forgotten.
 
Upvote 0
Aug 4, 2006
3,868
1,065
.
✟95,047.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I think, Halbhh (and @True Counterphobia may be interested in this as well) that you have misinterpreted Isaiah. You have to read it in context, and understand what he was saying. He was not prophesying Jesus Christ's second coming. He was not talking about Jesus at all. Isaiah was talking about the nation of Israel, not individual worshippers of God. He was saying that Israel's sins would be forgotten, and that God would forget and forgive all the things they had done wrong.

That aside, however, what you appear to believe is that in heaven, you will quite simply forget the sufferings of any loved ones you have who are in hell. Is that correct?
Did I make a joke, @Halbhh ? I see you have rated my post as funny.
 
Upvote 0
Aug 4, 2006
3,868
1,065
.
✟95,047.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Full context and real listening is the only way to understand. Though I've read fully through Isaiah four times, I still humbly listen.

If you listen, you read sympathetically. It's the key to good reading.
I'm not sure that reading sympathetically is the right way to comprehend a difficult piece of text. I'd recommend reading critically, and considering context, as the keys to good reading.
 
Upvote 0
Aug 4, 2006
3,868
1,065
.
✟95,047.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I would need more, but no matter, that hasn't happened and propably won't.

This from post 56 seems to say it all:
I don't think that's what Isaiah was saying.
He was not a Christian, and he had no idea the Christians were coming. What he was talking about was how God would make Israel great again and how its sins would be forgiven and forgotten.
 
Upvote 0
Aug 4, 2006
3,868
1,065
.
✟95,047.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Do you love all your neighbors? Most people fall short.
No, I'm afraid I do not.
As I understand it, Christian teaching is that none of us are worthy to go to heaven because none of us are worthy; but we can go if God forgives us.
So, we see that loving is not enough to go to heaven, contrary to what you said earlier.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jesse Dornfeld

Slave to Christ
Site Supporter
Oct 11, 2020
3,345
1,109
37
Twin Cities
Visit site
✟176,653.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Did I make a joke, @Halbhh ? I see you have rated my post as funny.

Your position is rather comical as much of Revelation is quoting books like Isaiah. Further, NONE of the Apostles were actually gentiles as such that they "invented" Christianity. Even Apostle Paul at length, uses OT scripture to demonstrate the Truth of the Gospel. They were Jewish and had a Jewish context of the OT. They used the OT to demonstrate certain Truths about Jesus. Revelation is a book of the Bible with a Jewish context in terms of it's relation to who is saved. And further, the idea that Paul "invented" Christianity is terribly misunderstood.

So the idea that Isaiah "wasn't a Christian" is just silly given what the Apostle John said about the new heavens and the new earth in Revelation, in which he quotes things from the book of Isaiah, Ezekiel, ect. It wasn't like the authors of the NT were actually trying to "invent" a new religion as much as how the authors of the NT understood things from their own Jewish perspective.

Now, you can argue that what Christians believe today doesn't reflect its Jewish roots, but that's an entirely different argument altogether.
 
Upvote 0

Kenny'sID

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 28, 2016
18,185
7,003
69
USA
✟585,394.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I don't think that's what Isaiah was saying.
He was not a Christian, and he had no idea the Christians were coming. What he was talking about was how God would make Israel great again and how its sins would be forgiven and forgotten.

And it's so clear to me....oh well.
 
Upvote 0

Magnanimity

Active Member
Dec 13, 2020
124
94
Atlanta
✟24,738.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Hi all, I’m late to this discussion, since I’m new here. Only just got my 100 posts (go me!)

NB - this post is primarily directed to Christians who believe that a literal hell exists.

Interestingly, even though the essay that is the topic of discussion here mentions the “many Christian” thinkers who have pondered the nature of Hell, conspicuously absent are those who have argued for some limited, finite Hell. So, not denying that a Hell exists, just insisting that it must necessarily be finite in nature (with reasonable sentencing, possibility of parole, etc :wink:) And this would comprise a great many thinkers throughout the church’s long history. (See DB Hart’s recent book on this issue.) The author mentions Tertullian, Augustine, jumps ahead to Aquinas and then onto Edwards. And that’s about right. If he were to trouble himself with the much more voluminous ancient Christian East, he’d have had a harder time locating defenders of eternal-Hell.

So where does that leave us? Christians themselves tell us that heaven is so hellish that to endure it, one’s memory of loved ones must be erased. Alternatively, one must be distracted, forever."

“Christians tell us...” In one sense, some Evangelicals, with their commitment to the Augustinian vision of Hell are, like Aquinas himself, in a bit of a quandary. And although Craig is a prominent Christian apologist, he is very far from speaking for “Christianity.” His memory wipe idea sounds very magical and hints at a peculiar naïveté regarding the psychology of human persons, it seems. Once we begin to explore the human person with some depth, I think we arrive at a view of humanity that is very much mutually entangled, intertwined and co-identified. As in, we contribute to the building up of each other.

Every mother has a bit of her child in her, and every child, some of her mother within. Their very selves are entangled such that it can some times be difficult to identify where the consciousness of one precisely ends and the other’s begins. So we have expressions like, “the apple hasn’t fallen far from the tree..” Something similar happens in various human relationships like spouses, siblings, best friends, etc. If this intermingled mutuality of personhood can be accepted, it becomes immediately evident that memory-wiping would be, quite literally, dehumanizing. To take away my memories of my child, which themselves form me at my very core, is to take away substantial portions of me. Keep up that process and you’ll have dwindled me down to nearly nothing, depending on how many close ones in my life didn’t make the cut.

But don’t imagine God would actually solve the problem and eliminate the injustice of perpetual conscious torment in hell

Hell only becomes unjust if we commit ourselves to the Augustinian notions of it being forever and inescapable. Thankfully, plenty of St Augustine’s peers didn’t accept his views and had rather hopeful eschatological views like a final reuniting of the entire human race back to God, in the end (eg, St Gregory of Nyssa). To say nothing of the very many other ancient, medieval and contemporary scholars who have held similar views to St Gregory and have rejected the Augustinian vision (without rejecting Hell, per se).

But as Hans Urs Von Balthasar noted in his hopeful book on this subject, the shadow of Augustine has loomed very large over the Western church. On this issue today, we are still having a hard time breaking free from the great saint’s bleak vision of the afterlife. But the author’s criticisms really only apply to the Augustinian view of Hell. There is nothing particularly odd or shocking about an immediate state in the afterlife which would be punitive and/or rehabilitative for folks who have committed horrendous evils here and gotten away with them, so long as that state has an end.
 
Upvote 0

Clizby WampusCat

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2019
3,657
892
54
Texas
✟109,913.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Hi all, I’m late to this discussion, since I’m new here. Only just got my 100 posts (go me!)



Interestingly, even though the essay that is the topic of discussion here mentions the “many Christian” thinkers who have pondered the nature of Hell, conspicuously absent are those who have argued for some limited, finite Hell. So, not denying that a Hell exists, just insisting that it must necessarily be finite in nature (with reasonable sentencing, possibility of parole, etc :wink:) And this would comprise a great many thinkers throughout the church’s long history. (See DB Hart’s recent book on this issue.) The author mentions Tertullian, Augustine, jumps ahead to Aquinas and then onto Edwards. And that’s about right. If he were to trouble himself with the much more voluminous ancient Christian East, he’d have had a harder time locating defenders of eternal-Hell.



“Christians tell us...” In one sense, some Evangelicals, with their commitment to the Augustinian vision of Hell are, like Aquinas himself, in a bit of a quandary. And although Craig is a prominent Christian apologist, he is very far from speaking for “Christianity.” His memory wipe idea sounds very magical and hints at a peculiar naïveté regarding the psychology of human persons, it seems. Once we begin to explore the human person with some depth, I think we arrive at a view of humanity that is very much mutually entangled, intertwined and co-identified. As in, we contribute to the building up of each other.

Every mother has a bit of her child in her, and every child, some of her mother within. Their very selves are entangled such that it can some times be difficult to identify where the consciousness of one precisely ends and the other’s begins. So we have expressions like, “the apple hasn’t fallen far from the tree..” Something similar happens in various human relationships like spouses, siblings, best friends, etc. If this intermingled mutuality of personhood can be accepted, it becomes immediately evident that memory-wiping would be, quite literally, dehumanizing. To take away my memories of my child, which themselves form me at my very core, is to take away substantial portions of me. Keep up that process and you’ll have dwindled me down to nearly nothing, depending on how many close ones in my life didn’t make the cut.



Hell only becomes unjust if we commit ourselves to the Augustinian notions of it being forever and inescapable. Thankfully, plenty of St Augustine’s peers didn’t accept his views and had rather hopeful eschatological views like a final reuniting of the entire human race back to God, in the end (eg, St Gregory of Nyssa). To say nothing of the very many other ancient, medieval and contemporary scholars who have held similar views to St Gregory and have rejected the Augustinian vision (without rejecting Hell, per se).

But as Hans Urs Von Balthasar noted in his hopeful book on this subject, the shadow of Augustine has loomed very large over the Western church. On this issue today, we are still having a hard time breaking free from the great saint’s bleak vision of the afterlife. But the author’s criticisms really only apply to the Augustinian view of Hell. There is nothing particularly odd or shocking about an immediate state in the afterlife which would be punitive and/or rehabilitative for folks who have committed horrendous evils here and gotten away with them, so long as that state has an end.
In the end no one knows what he’ll is like. God has been irresponsibility vague on this issue, well on all issues. The proof is in the arguments and division between Christians on this and all issues.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Magnanimity

Active Member
Dec 13, 2020
124
94
Atlanta
✟24,738.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
God has been irresponsibility vague on this issue, well on all issues.

I don’t know what to say about your personal judgment that being-vague on these issues of the afterlife is “irresponsible.” Plenty of folks have been ok with the very small amount of details provided, so long as it eventuates in a reality much better than this current one in important respects.

The proof is in the arguments and division between Christians on this and all issues.

There is an abundance that unites Christians, both in action and in beliefs. But I don’t see the problem with a lack of uniformity. Aren’t there goods that result from diversity? A tapestry of many colors, if you will. Or a symphonic harmony? There are many such analogies one could draw. It could be that uniformity is itself a less than ideal situation.
 
Upvote 0