In Australia Vic Government trying to pass laws that criminalise preaching

ken777

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"Homosexuality, same-sex marriage, bisexuality, transsexualism and transgenderism may not be promoted* on CF"

"* Promotion is defined as encouragement of the progress, growth, or acceptance of something including advertising and publicity."

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ken777

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no they are just facing the consequences of the things they say just like is someone who makes racist or anti-Semitic comments.
So you are calling Jacinta Price a racist? Both Margaret Court & Israel Folau were not breaking any laws - they were just attacked by the thought police. We still have the free exercise of religion in our Constitution.
 
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PloverWing

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I believe I have stayed within the CF rules. I argued the narrow point that married gay couples can make good parents, and I think CF allows that viewpoint to be presented.

I am not addressing the question of whether it is morally appropriate for gay people to marry, because that question may not be discussed on CF.

For comparison, I assert that Hindu couples can make good parents. I can assert this without recommending that anyone convert to Hinduism.
 
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ken777

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I believe I have stayed within the CF rules. I argued the narrow point that married gay couples can make good parents, and I think CF allows that viewpoint to be presented.

I am not addressing the question of whether it is morally appropriate for gay people to marry, because that question may not be discussed on CF.

For comparison, I assert that Hindu couples can make good parents. I can assert this without recommending that anyone convert to Hinduism.
no comparison between Hindu heterosexual couples and homosexual couples
 
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Philip_B

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So you are calling Jacinta Price a racist? Both Margaret Court & Israel Folau were not breaking any laws - they were just attacked by the thought police. We still have the free exercise of religion in our Constitution.
I understand this is our accepted proposition, however we are nowhere hear as clear on that as the US Constitution.
au: 116. Commonwealth not to legislate in respect of religion
The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.

us: First Amendment
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.​

I accept the proposition that MC and IF did not transgress. In the case of IF you have to look at the question of the contract, and the restraints that may be imposed on someone receiving a salary so forty or fifty times the national average because the play good footy.

The point is that the consequences for speech and action are not simply legal redress. The proposition that we have 'free speech' in Australia is a moot point. Short of an appeal to the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, I think you would have trouble in truly establishing it. It is essentially a common assumption, and is abridged in all manner of circumstances, both is Australia and in the USA. And the point you are making is that our Free Speech is actually abridged here as a result of the CF Terms and Conditions.
 
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ken777

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And the point you are making is that our Free Speech is actually abridged here as a result of the CF Terms and Conditions.
Free speech is restricted when you willingly enter into an agreement explicitly stipulating what you can & cannot say.
 
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ken777

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Sounds like St Paul believed people could change:

17 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed.​

20 That, however, is not the way of life you learned 21 when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. (Ephesians 4)
Read that, and link it to Romans 1:26-27, in a private counseling session with a person requesting help for SSA, and you could find yourself subjected to investigation by the Victorian Commissioner for LGBTIQ+ Communities.
 
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Paidiske

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... you could find yourself subjected to investigation by the Victorian Commissioner for LGBTIQ+ Communities.

You could find yourself investigated, however, a discussion of Biblical texts is not conversion therapy, and any investigation would have to so conclude.
 
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ken777

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You could find yourself investigated, however, a discussion of Biblical texts is not conversion therapy, and any investigation would have to so conclude.
Repeating what Paul said in Ephesians 4 and advising the person they should follow Paul's advice would trigger the law: put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires
 
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Paidiske

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Repeating what Paul said in Ephesians 4 and advising the person they should follow Paul's advice would trigger the law: put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires

No, and again, no. Advice is not conversion therapy as defined in this legislation.
 
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ken777

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No, and again, no. Advice is not conversion therapy as defined in this legislation.
Expressing one's opinion is allowed but not telling someone they should suppress their sexual desires & behaviour, which is what Paul is saying: put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
 
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Paidiske

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ignorant rubbish - expressing one's opinion is allowed but not telling someone they should suppress their sexual desires & behaviour, which is what Paul is saying: put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

Paul's words there do not reference sexual orientation or gender identity specifically, and so pointing someone to them is not a direct attempt at conversion therapy.

And even telling someone what they "should" do is not conversion therapy, provided it does not come with any direct attempt to change that person's sexual orientation or gender identity.
 
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ken777

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Paul's words there do not reference sexual orientation or gender identity specifically, and so pointing someone to them is not a direct attempt at conversion therapy.

And even telling someone what they "should" do is not conversion therapy, provided it does not come with any direct attempt to change that person's sexual orientation or gender identity.
Paul's words in that passage explicitly reference sexual sin (v.19) but what it means to you or me is irrelevant, it only matters what it means to the pastor & parishoner - and for many that means changing or suppressing sinful thoughts & behaviour, including homosexuality.

You appear to be quite ignorant of this law which captures "conversations ... that encourage change or suppression" (Explanatory Memorandum).
 
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dms1972

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This is such an offensive description of gay parents.

I don't know the couple in the article you linked to, so I can't speak to how good they are as parents. And, like you, I have misgivings about surrogacy, so we might have some agreement there.

But, in general, LGB people are people, and they do (or don't) want children for the same reasons that straight people do (or don't) want children.

I am thinking of 4 couples who are close to me. One is a married gay couple who adopted a hearing-impaired son and are great parents to him. (Despite being men -- did you really say that men would have no clue what to do with a baby?) Another is a lesbian widow who is similarly a great parent to her two daughters. A third is a lesbian couple who are planning to adopt in a few years; both have experience with young children and are good with children.

And a fourth couple is a straight couple who are infertile and are in the process of adopting their foster daughter. If you think it's selfish and wrong to adopt children, remember that you're condemning this last couple, too.

I accept that you believe same-sex marriage is wrong, and I accept that that is the position of your church. But adopted children are not "trophy children", and children conceived through medical interventions are likewise not "trophy children".

I never suggested adoption was always wrong. That would depend very much on the reasons a same sex couple are seeking to adopt, how stable they are, could they really cope with needs of a young child, are there other family members who can become involved - I think the rules should be as strict in terms of assessment as they are for everyone else.

I said some prominent same sex couples have sought children and exhibited them triumphalistically through the media as if trophies of a political victory.

It was a rhetorical question to make you think (as I will explain in a moment), not a description except in so far as everyone has seen examples of high profile LGB couples who court the media and show off that they now have kids of their own (occasionally neither by adoption nor through coitus). They are boasting about their gains politically.

The article I linked mentioned something called "genealogical bewilderment" - a sense of bewilderment a child may experience if they don't know who their biological parents are. If adopted, a person becomes older they may be able to trace one or both of their birth parents if they are living, but some children that sense of bewilderment is going to be greater if they have been conceived through artificial means and no longer can trace parents.

In a democratic society there is toleration of a diversity of opinion about adoption by LGB couples - including tolerance of those who are opposed in principle to the idea because a child growing up needs both a mother and father. It is a valid and legitimate view that people still can and do express, there is nothing 'homophobic' about saying in what sort of family milieu a child does best.

Homosexuality was widespread in Greek culture (moreso among the upper classes), but of quite a different character and also to an extent in Roman culture but neither of those cultures went as far as legislating for same-sex marriage - the idea of a quasi-marriage between people of the same sex was not really thinkable for them. In reality there wasn't the notion of a "gay identity" or even of "gayness".

Now the question is why do some self described gays and lesbians seek many of the aspects of hetrosexual relationships - marriage, wedding rings and ceremony, children etc.? They say they are having to give the hope of fulfillment of longings and aspirations they have in order to embrace a "gay identity". Who is telling them they have to embrace a gay identity? If they have those longings maybe that should be telling them something?
 
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dms1972

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No, and again, no. Advice is not conversion therapy as defined in this legislation.

Its a wee bit stronger than advice, its on the level of instruction or admonition. You might be better to put this to the test for yourself.
 
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Paidiske

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You appear to be quite ignorant of this law which captures "conversations ... that encourage change or suppression" (Explanatory Memorandum).

I've read the legislation very carefully.

There is a difference between changing someone's sexual orientation (which is where the law steps in), and counselling them against particular behaviours. That difference does not seem to be clear to many of the people scare-mongering with the suggestion that this bill will criminalise things like normal Bible study or pastoral care.

As for the repeated suggestion that I put this to the test myself, I have absolutely no intention of changing anything about the way I conduct my ministry, and I have not the least concern about legislation such as this, which I see as directed at practices which would be beyond the boundaries of ethical ministry.
 
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dms1972

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So Reparative therapy and Ex-gay ministries etc. are not banned under this bill, just the coercive therapies such as aversion therapy? Could those ministries and therapists be subject to any form of investigation? Listening to other opinions expressed including representatives of psychiatric bodies and leaders of faith groups they are saying there isn't the clarity needed it doesn't define it what is meant by "conversion therapy" narrowly enough.

Why can they not just make it clear that it is just about aversion therapy and behavioral therapies and not about bona-fide approaches such reparative therapy and other insight oriented therapies, and not about Addiction counselling and that its not about Ex-Gay ministries etc. That its not about ministers preaching about turning from sin.

I would not be surprised if this lack of clarity is going to result in it being scrapped before it comes into effect.
 
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ken777

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I've read the legislation very carefully.

There is a difference between changing someone's sexual orientation (which is where the law steps in), and counselling them against particular behaviours. That difference does not seem to be clear to many of the people scare-mongering with the suggestion that this bill will criminalise things like normal Bible study or pastoral care.

As for the repeated suggestion that I put this to the test myself, I have absolutely no intention of changing anything about the way I conduct my ministry, and I have not the least concern about legislation such as this, which I see as directed at practices which would be beyond the boundaries of ethical ministry.
Your last paragraph seems to be a flight of fancy which is completely bewildering.

I wonder why you are so keen to warp the clear meaning of "conversations ... that encourage change or suppression" in the Explanatory Memorandum.
 
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