Adam's Flesh Could Not Be Saved

Davy · Feb 12, 2021

prodromos said:
No, they were created with the potential to become perfect. If they had remained obedient they would eventually have been mature enough to eat of the fruit which they were initially forbidden. Free will is not corruption. Man cannot truly love God without free will.

No, flesh cannot... ever... become perfect. That idea is what the occultists believe. They believe in the immortality of the flesh, which is not possible, nor ever will be possible.

1 Cor 15:45-54
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
KJV

mmksparbud · Feb 12, 2021

Davy said:
Sorry, but yes, Adam and Eve were created with the corruption of flesh that was possible for it to sin and die. If it represented a state of perfection comparable to Christ's future Salvation, then it would not have been possible for Adam and Eve to have sinned in the first place. That's easy to understand, so why are you fighting against it? Just so you can keep men's false tradition that thinks our flesh body is what is resurrected? No, there are no folks laying literally asleep dead in the casket in the ground.

Well this coulod go on until Jesus returns!! Yes, no, yes, no. You are free to believe whatever you want. My final word is that God did not create corrupted flesh, He created perfection, sin brought in the corruption. God gave them a perfect free will and they used it to rebel. You are just spreading the lie that this is God's fault. We will all have to face Him one day---I certainly do not wish to face Him having spread a lie about Him. I will not respond further to your false characterization of God.

prodromos · Feb 12, 2021

Davy said:
No, flesh cannot... ever... become perfect.

It can and has, in the person of Christ Jesus.

SkyWriting · Feb 12, 2021

Aussie Pete said:
Your argument is absurd. That means that Lord Jesus had the seed of sin in Him also. I've created a post to answer your argument.

Yes. You can't have faith without the need for it. Just because Jesus was sinless doesn't mean he wasn't tempted. Faith requires testing. Jesus would have been the happiest man ever without faith. Just giggling all the time.

Davy · Feb 12, 2021

prodromos said:
It can and has, in the person of Christ Jesus.

If you believe Lord Jesus is now in Heaven with a flesh body, then it means you don't believe what Paul said here...

1 Cor 15:42-50
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

prodromos · Feb 12, 2021

Davy said:
If you believe Lord Jesus is now in Heaven with a flesh body, then it means you don't believe what Paul said here...

It means I don't misunderstand Paul as you do. It means I believe what the rest of the Scriptures say and know that Paul does not contradict what they say.

One Son · Feb 12, 2021

mmksparbud said:
Well this coulod go on until Jesus returns!! Yes, no, yes, no. You are free to believe whatever you want. My final word is that God did not create corrupted flesh, He created perfection, sin brought in the corruption. God gave them a perfect free will and they used it to rebel. You are just spreading the lie that this is God's fault. We will all have to face Him one day---I certainly do not wish to face Him having spread a lie about Him. I will not respond further to your false characterization of God.

Ps.51:5(ASV) Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.

Heb.2:1-13.

Heb.2:14Since then the children are sharers in flesh and blood, he also himself in like manner partook of the same; that through death he might bring to nought him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15and might deliver all them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16For verily not to angels doth he give help, but he giveth help to the seed of Abraham.

17Wherefore it behooved him in all things to be made like unto his brethren, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted.

2Cor.5:17 Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new. 18But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave unto us the ministry of reconciliation; 19to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20We are ambassadors therefore on behalf of Christ, as though God were entreating by us: we beseech you on behalf of Christ, be ye reconciled to God.

21 Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.

Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf

Ps.51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.

mmksparbud · Feb 12, 2021

One Son said:
Ps.51:5(ASV) Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.

Heb.2:1-13.

Heb.2:14Since then the children are sharers in flesh and blood, he also himself in like manner partook of the same; that through death he might bring to nought him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15and might deliver all them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16For verily not to angels doth he give help, but he giveth help to the seed of Abraham.

17Wherefore it behooved him in all things to be made like unto his brethren, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted.

2Cor.5:17 Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new. 18But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave unto us the ministry of reconciliation; 19to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20We are ambassadors therefore on behalf of Christ, as though God were entreating by us: we beseech you on behalf of Christ, be ye reconciled to God.

21 Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.

Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf

Ps.51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.

Are you not aware that not one single human born since Adam and Eve were ever born with uncorrupted flesh?? Only Adam and Eve were created perfect, as were Lucifer and his angels---they all lost that perfection with sin. Of course these verses say we have corrupted flesh----because we do!!

throughfiierytrial · Feb 13, 2021

Davy said:
Sorry, but yes, Adam and Eve were created with the corruption of flesh that was possible for it to sin and die. If it represented a state of perfection comparable to Christ's future Salvation, then it would not have been possible for Adam and Eve to have sinned in the first place. That's easy to understand, so why are you fighting against it? Just so you can keep men's false tradition that thinks our flesh body is what is resurrected? No, there are no folks laying literally asleep dead in the casket in the ground.

If what you say is so...Adam and Eve were in corrupted flesh from time of creation...why did the curse of sin follow the eating of the apple from the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Why all the curses due to that first trespass?

Davy · Feb 13, 2021

prodromos said:
It means I don't misunderstand Paul as you do. It means I believe what the rest of the Scriptures say and know that Paul does not contradict what they say.

It means you refuse to heed what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15, because it is easily understood in simplicity. That's why Paul gave that 1 Cor.15 letter to the brethren, not to teach them silly riddles, but to give them real understanding about the kind of body the resurrection is. But those who instead wish to follow men's traditions instead of God's Word is nothing new.

Davy · Feb 13, 2021

throughfireytrial said:
If what you say is so...Adam and Eve were in corrupted flesh from time of creation...why did the curse of sin follow the eating of the apple from the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Why all the curses due to that first trespass?

I realize most Churches do not teach the very first sin against our Heavenly Father, which was not the sin of Adam and Eve. But even what took place in Eden will not be properly understood until it is understood what Satan's sin against God in that old world was about.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is also symbolic of Satan himself. That because God originally created Satan a good cherub, but then Satan became evil in coveting God's Place. That tree represents sin, and thus death.

In Revelation 21 we are told in final once Satan, the wicked, and the abode of hell all go into the future "lake of fire", that only then there will be no more... death.

Can you not believe that God and His creation can exist without the concept of 'death'? Many cannot, but that is exactly what that Scripture is revealing for the future...

Rev 21:4
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV

Therefore, that means the idea of 'death' did NOT... originate from GOD; He was not the cause of it. Satan was the cause because of Satan's rebellion in that old world before this 2nd world we are in today.

This is why Hebrews 2:14 reveals the power of death was assigned to Satan. Because Adam and Eve were made in the flesh, that placed them under the power of the lusts of the flesh. Otherwise, Eve could not have been deceived with lusting after the fruit.

And Genesis 3 with what Eve said about that tree shows her flesh lusted after it.

So God created the flesh for THIS 2nd world, a creation of imperfection and corruption to vanity (according to Apostle Paul in Romans 8:18-25). A creation that included the concept of DEATH.

There is no mystery about the state of degradation for this present world and thus today's creation, starting... from Genesis 1:2. Many do not understand that the present state of today's creation is in bondage which God placed it in for this 2nd world earth age that is preserved unto fire (2 Peter 3).

There was... a previous original, perfect creation in the beginning (Genesis 1:1). That was when Satan was perfect in his ways following God. Then Satan rebelled, and God ended that old world, the "world that then was" of 2 Peter 3. Without understanding this, one will not truly understand how this present creation came to be, and why it is reserved for destruction on the coming "day of the Lord".

Thusly, there will be NO UTOPIA for this present creation of today. That is the dream of Satan's servants who follow him instead of The Father and His Son. Instead this present 2nd world earth age is reserved for destruction by God, with man's works burned off the surface of the earth (2 Peter 3).

Even though a one-world UTOPIA for today is what the devil's servants are trying to setup on earth for this 2nd world earth age, God is not going to let it happen. Just when they thought they have succeeded, that is when Lord Jesus Christ is going to step in and show them what's up.

prodromos · Feb 13, 2021

Davy said:
It means you refuse to heed what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15, because it is easily understood in simplicity. That's why Paul gave that 1 Cor.15 letter to the brethren, not to teach them silly riddles, but to give them real understanding about the kind of body the resurrection is. But those who instead wish to follow men's traditions instead of God's Word is nothing new.

If you understand it as you have, then you have Paul contradicting what is understood in simplicity throughout the Scriptures. Thus, it is clear you misinterpret Paul.

Alter2Ego · Feb 14, 2021

Davy said:
It appears some brethren on the forum need a Bible lesson on the fact that Jesus did not come to save our flesh, He came to save our spirit/soul, as Apostle Paul was emphatic that flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God, neither does corruption inherit incorruption...
1 Cor 15:45-54

Davy:

The Apostle Paul was applying 1 Corinthians 15:45-54 to those that will rule with Christ in the heavens--a relatively small number from among mankind, based on what is stated in the book of Revelation. Below is one such verse.

"Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads." (Revelation 14:1 -- New International Version (NIV))

So you are wrong when you say Jesus did not come to resurrect persons in the flesh. Scripture makes it clear that the vast majority of humanity will attain a fleshly resurrection, for obvious reasons: They will reside right here on the earth.

Alter2Ego

Alter2Ego · Feb 14, 2021

Davy said:
This is elementary Bible 101 stuff, because our flesh was not made to live forever. It's the atheists which don't believe in God that want to somehow think their flesh can be immortal. It cannot. Even in Romans 7 Apostle Paul showed that in his fleshy members he served the law of sin. And sin = death. Our flesh is ordained to perish at the end of this world.
Rom 7:21-25

Davy:

What you claim is "elementary Bible 101 stuff," that "our flesh was not made to live forever," is patently false. Your reliance on the Apostle Paul's writings at Corinthians and Romans is the root of your confusion: Paul was speaking to people who were part of the heavenly class. And that class, according to Revelation 14:1-4, only consists of 144,000 persons that would be taken from among mankind.

Simply put, Paul's words do not apply to the billions of humankind that will attain a fleshly resurrection right here on earth.

Alter2Ego

Alter2Ego · Feb 14, 2021

Davy said:
This means of course, that the seed of sin was already present in Adam and Eve's flesh, even before they sinned. Corruption cannot inherit incorruption, like Apostle Paul said. The flesh body is for this present world; the spiritual body is for the world to come.

Davy:

Scripture says of Adam and Eve following their being created:

"And God saw EVERYTHING that he had made, and behold, it was VERY GOOD. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day." (Genesis 1:31 -- English Standard Version)

QUESTION #1 TO DAVY: Since your position is that Almighty God created Adam and Eve as sinners who were created to die, is this forum to believe that Genesis 1:31 is not correct when it says EVERYTHING that was made by the Almighty during the Genesis Creation account was VERY GOOD? In otherwords, scripture is contradicting itself?

Alter2Ego

Davy · Feb 15, 2021

Alter2Ego said:
Davy:

The Apostle Paul was applying 1 Corinthians 15:45-54 to those that will rule with Christ in the heavens--a relatively small number from among mankind, based on what is stated in the book of Revelation. Below is one such verse.

"Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads." (Revelation 14:1 -- New International Version (NIV))

So you are wrong when you say Jesus did not come to resurrect persons in the flesh. Scripture makes it clear that the vast majority of humanity will attain a fleshly resurrection, for obvious reasons: They will reside right here on the earth.

Alter2Ego

Study Revelation 7 about the "great multitude", and also Isaiah 25:5-9, and tell me that.

The 144,000 of Rev.7 only represent the very elect servants of Christ from among the children of Israel. It's not about the Gentiles. The "great multitude" that is saved in Rev.7 is about the Gentiles.

Isaiah 25:5-9 is where Apostle Paul was pulling from in 1 Corinthians 15 with the idea of death 'swallowed up in victory'. On the last day of this world, on the "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns, ALL peoples alive on earth will be changed at the twinkling of an eye, not just us in Christ Jesus. This is what Isaiah 25 reveals.

The world to come on earth will not be another flesh world like today. That's why there will then be such a thing called a "second death", which is the casting into the future "lake of fire" after Christ's future "thousand years" reign. The concept of a 1st death will not exist then.

Davy · Feb 15, 2021

Alter2Ego said:
Davy:

What you claim is "elementary Bible 101 stuff," that "our flesh was not made to live forever," is patently false. Your reliance on the Apostle Paul's writings at Corinthians and Romans is the root of your confusion: Paul was speaking to people who were part of the heavenly class. And that class, according to Revelation 14:1-4, only consists of 144,000 persons that would be taken from among mankind.

Simply put, Paul's words do not apply to the billions of humankind that will attain a fleshly resurrection right here on earth.

Alter2Ego

You are right, I DO RELY on Apostle Paul's Epistles. I believe what he said here...

1 Cor 15:48-50
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

If your stand is with Jesus Christ, then you should believe what Apostle Paul said above too. If you don't, then why are you here on a Christian site?

Davy · Feb 15, 2021

Alter2Ego said:
Davy:

Scripture says of Adam and Eve following their being created:

"And God saw EVERYTHING that he had made, and behold, it was VERY GOOD. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day." (Genesis 1:31 -- English Standard Version)

QUESTION #1 TO DAVY: Since your position is that Almighty God created Adam and Eve as sinners who were created to die, is this forum to believe that Genesis 1:31 is not correct when it says EVERYTHING that was made by the Almighty during the Genesis Creation account was VERY GOOD? In otherwords, scripture is contradicting itself?

Alter2Ego

Read the Romans 8:18-25 Scripture and try to say this present creation that is reserved unto fire (2 Peter 3) is a 'perfect' creation.

Rom 8:19-22
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
KJV

And no, God did not suddenly place His creation in that "bondage of corruption" because of Adam and Eve's sin.

God placed this 2nd world earth age into corruption because of Satan's sin, which was the original first sin. That all happened prior to Adam being formed in God's Garden of Eden.

Davy · Feb 15, 2021

mmksparbud said:
Well this coulod go on until Jesus returns!! Yes, no, yes, no. You are free to believe whatever you want. My final word is that God did not create corrupted flesh, He created perfection, sin brought in the corruption. God gave them a perfect free will and they used it to rebel. You are just spreading the lie that this is God's fault. We will all have to face Him one day---I certainly do not wish to face Him having spread a lie about Him. I will not respond further to your false characterization of God.

You're free to believe men's doctrines about an imaginary flesh perfection if you want, but I'll stay with God's Word as written (1 Corinthians 15:49-50).

God created Adam and Eve 'sinless', but in a body of corruption, i.e., flesh, which was subject to sin.

If that were not so, then that old serpent's tempting Eve would have never worked. This is not just Bible 101, but it is common sense 101.

Thus men's leaven doctrines ADDED to God's Word, suggesting that Adam and Eve's flesh represented the perfection of Christ's future Salvation state is a FALSEHOOD! It is only an idea drummed up by men's leaven doctrines to try... and support the old false Jewish tradition that our dead loved ones are still out in a casket in the ground waiting for their 'flesh' to be resurrected! That dead in the ground theory goes directly against Apostle Paul's Epistles that show it is our 'spirit' that is saved by Christ, not our flesh body.

Jesus is YHWH · Feb 15, 2021

Davy said:
Prior to Adam and Eve disobeying God, and committing the first sin in the flesh, that in no way represented Christ's Salvation. It's truly absurd to think so, since if that was so it would have been impossible for Adam and Eve to sin in that state.

What some men have wrongly believed on is the false theory that Christ's Salvation is about a resurrection of one's literal flesh, like a fleshy salvation. Apostle Paul was specific in 1 Corinthians 15:50 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption inherit incorruption. He showed that the resurrection body type is a "spiritual body", not a flesh body.

But those stuck in Old Testament traditions think man's soul requires flesh to exist, and thus they wrongly think the resurrection is about flesh in the casket being raised. The New Testament shows different, especially with what Apostle Paul taught. And since Apostle Paul had been trained under the best Hebrew scholar of his day, Gamaliel, that means Paul well understood the Old Testament too.

same argument JW's make to deny Jesus is still a man with a glorified human body of flesh and bones. Jesus said a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.

1 Cor 15 makes it clear the Resurrection body is physical in nature just no longer corrupted and is immoral and imperishable.

Soma the Greek word for body is always physical in nature never immaterial. You are espousing heresy. The bodily Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus is at the heart of the gospel. So you are denying the bodily Resurrection of Jesus and the gospel. Jesus is forever God manifest in the flesh. The Incarnation was permanent. You are espousing gnosticism,

hope this helps !!!

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