How could we survive the horrors of heaven?

JohnClay

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Sorry, John, I missed that.
No worries.

I'm afraid I can't see the videos.
YouTube - The Glory of the Punishment

YouTube - My Christian Grandmother Went to Hell (try the first 9 minutes)

Reading the transcript of the video in post #12, my first thought is that the preacher is not very coherent. Can you clarify? What exactly he is trying to say?
I think it makes more sense if you listen to his voice. I don't think he usually plans his sermons much. Let me know if you still don't understand.

Frankly, from what I can see, his ideas disturb me, and I want to make sure I understand them properly before I respond.
Yes it disturbs me too. But it seems he wouldn't have much of a problem with hell if he was in heaven.
 
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No worries.
YouTube - The Glory of the Punishment
YouTube - My Christian Grandmother Went to Hell (try the first 9 minutes)

I think it makes more sense if you listen to his voice. I don't think he usually plans his sermons much. Let me know if you still don't understand.

Yes it disturbs me too. But it seems he wouldn't have much of a problem with hell if he was in heaven.
I'm sorry - what I meant is, I live in China and can't access youtube.
I can see that he wouldn't have much of a problem. It's just, I think he is not a good person for thinking like that. I would like to understand his point of view before I comment further, though.
 
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mmksparbud

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A good point! But at least while you are on earth you do not know that the loved one is in hell. But what if, once you are in heaven, you could actually look down, and see your wife, your mother, your little son, being tortured in horrible agony, FOREVER.
Would you feel okay with that? Would just shrug your shoulders and say, "Well, they must have deserved it, otherwise they wouldn't be there," and enjoy the delights of heaven without giving them another thought?

I already answered that. No, nobody would be happy. that is not going to happen. There is no forever burning hell. The wicked are punished according to their works, then they die. There will be no pain, no sorrow, no sin. As long as there is one sinner burning in hell, there is pain and sorrow and sin. There is justice for the sinner, they must pay for their sins--- but it is not forever. That was taught by the early church in order to keep people under their thumb, plus to make money off of selling indulgences for those people they taught were in pjurgatory. There is no purgatory.
 
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I already answered that. No, nobody would be happy. that is not going to happen. There is no forever burning hell. The wicked are punished according to their works, then they die. There will be no pain, no sorrow, no sin. As long as there is one sinner burning in hell, there is pain and sorrow and sin. There is justice for the sinner, they must pay for their sins--- but it is not forever. That was taught by the early church in order to keep people under their thumb, plus to make money off of selling indulgences for those people they taught were in pjurgatory. There is no purgatory.
If you do not believe in a literal eternal hell, then this question is not really directed at you. I'm glad to hear that you subscribe to a more humane version of Christianity.
 
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Another quote from Seidenstecker, on the horrors of heaven:

"Let’s return to Christian rationalizations for hell. From Eternal Perspective Ministries:

"In a sense, none of our loved ones will be in Hell—only some whom we once loved. . . . I cannot prove biblically what I’ve just stated, but I think it rings true, even if the thought is horrifying."

I know we’ve seen it many times already, but I must again highlight what this author admits. This is a Christian saying that heaven is horrifying. You can sense the strain of cognitive dissonance as they justify two opposing ideas—God is good and yet he invented hell. It’s like holding the tails of two angry bulls.

So what have we learned? Getting a ticket to heaven is unmerited, so there’s no good reason for you to be there. You must to be changed into someone else to endure heaven. Human free will is vital to God and yet he must suppress it in heaven. And the need for people to be changed—that is, for their natural instincts to be overridden so they can tolerate heaven—undercuts one of Christian apologists’ favorite arguments, that only God can ground free will."
 
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com7fy8

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Perhaps we can assume that Satan was dissatisfied with the state of affairs in heaven while he was there, but that does not mean he experienced torment while he was there.
Isn't dissatisfaction a sort of torment? And if people are dissatisfied, can't they be deeply tormented about what is dissatisfying them?

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment." (in 1 John 4:18)

Possibly, Satan had fear of not being above all others. Right now, maybe we are seeing how certain politicians are in torment of fear of not having their own way. And "fear of death" is Satan's way of keeping people in slavery to him > Hebrews 2:14-15. So, I see a connection between Satan and his torment about not having his own way, and sharing this with humans . . . so humans have fear and torment about not having the lives they dictate they have to have.

The problem is not what to do with those who are unable to enter heaven, but how those who do get into heaven could bear the thought of their loved ones in hell.
We bear that fact that they made their own choices; we don't like it, to say the least. We offered them our example, and they rejected us; no, we do not like being rejected by our own family and ones who were supposed to be our close friends. But certainly we are not going to let their choices decide if we enjoy God and Heaven.

Evil is very clever and cruelly stupid; so it is not wise to allow evil and selfish people to decide if we believe in God and love the way He has us loving any and all people.

Jesus says, "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" in Matthew 5:46. So, in case certain ones have refused to love any and all people and have perished, instead . . . we offered our example. But if evil people keep choosing to love selfishly, I would be stupid to let them have power over me to keep me suffering about them. But of course we love them and care about them, and keep offering our example with hope for them . . . like Jesus on the cross so suffered and died with hope for any and all evil people, including selfishly loving ones who pick and choose whom they consider to be good enough to love and worth loving.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but reading your post, your answer seems to be that since God decided on this, you just wouldn't care about them, as they deserved it.
Well, I do not think hell is what any evil person deserves. But sin is not fair. We reap so much more than our little seeds that we sow. We can get a harvest of thorns and torment, or a harvest of feeding on love.

Hell is the reaping, then, of more than ones deserve, I consider. And sharing with Jesus for eternity is so more and better than our little deeds here deserve, I would say.

In any case, I would be quite stupid to keep on suffering about people who have invested seeds of selfish loving and living . . . including after rejecting the people and their example, of how we can share with God, instead.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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This post is based on an interesting article I read at the Cross Examined blog by Patheos blogger Bob Seidenstecker. I thought it made a good point worth discussing. My post is mostly quoting it.
NB - this post is primarily directed to Christians who believe that a literal hell exists. If you have some other view on hell, you may feel that this argument does not affect you.

The post begins:


"Could you enjoy heaven knowing of the agony of those in hell? What if those in hell are your loved ones?

Medieval Christian theologian Thomas Aquinas turned the problem around by embracing that torment:
In order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned.
Many Christians have seized this lemons-to-lemonade opportunity. Thinkers from the early church such as Tertullian and Augustine down to Jonathan Edwards in his famous 1741 sermon “Sinners in the hands of an angry god” and beyond have not avoided but celebrated the pain of hell, imagining those in heaven looking over the ramparts and delighting in the anguish of those far below (more).
That doesn’t provide much support for C.S. Lewis’s famous claim, “The gates of hell are locked from the inside.”
...
Such thinking continues today. Popular Christian theologian R.C. Sproul told of one of his teachers saying, "In heaven, you will be so sanctified that you will be able to see your own mother in hell and rejoice in that, knowing that God’s perfect justice is being carried out." (video @19:35).

Who’d want to go to heaven if you’ll turn into that?
Christians often rationalize hell by pointing to Revelation 21:4, where “[God] will wipe every tear from their eyes . . . [and there will be] no more mourning or crying or pain.” If God will remove all sorrow in heaven, then somehow hell won’t bother us. It’s not clear how (the Bible doesn’t even admit the problem), but Christians have come up with various ideas to insulate those in heaven from hell.

Christianity StackExchange cites a popular though childish rationalization:
A common argument goes: There is no sadness in Heaven. If I knew that this person I loved was in Hell that would certainly make me very sad. Therefore it must be that I won’t remember them.
...
The Stand to Reason podcast (here @12:11) expands on this:
So we are not going to spend eternity reflecting on the anguish of our loved ones who have not received the mercy of God through the love of Christ. That would put a damper on things. But those things are going to be forgotten. . . . [Even if there were a fleeting memory of them,] it will be a reflection from God’s perspective, that they are getting judged justly, and that’s a good thing, and we have escaped justice and received mercy instead, and that’s a good thing, too.

Yeah, thinking of billions in torment in hell—or even just a handful of loved ones who didn’t make the cut—would put a damper on your pleasure in heaven, wouldn’t it? We certainly can’t have a loved one’s anguish ruining our picnic. But don’t imagine God would actually solve the problem and eliminate the injustice of perpetual conscious torment in hell. Instead, we either lose memories of those loved ones or smother any tender memory with the thought that, but for the grace of God, that could be us.

This is the “Sucks to be you” approach to justice. I got mine, and you’re burning in hell. God approved both placements, even though no human merits heaven. But of course if the tables were turned (you in heaven and me in hell), the justification would be equally valid—one of us is where justice demands they go, while the other subverted justice and lives in heaven.
...
William Lane Craig (WLC) has something to offer on this topic. He is quoted in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
[Craig hypothesizes] that God could simply “obliterate” from the minds of the redeemed “any knowledge of lost persons so that they experience no pangs of remorse for them.”
...
“Welcome to heaven! It won’t be so bad once we erase your memory.”
WLC tosses out another possibility.
The experience of being in Christ’s immediate presence will be so overwhelming for the redeemed that they will not think of the damned in hell (Source).

So where does that leave us? Christians themselves tell us that heaven is so hellish that to endure it, one’s memory of loved ones must be erased. Alternatively, one must be distracted, forever."

I wonder which side different members of Christian Forums fall on on this question?
This is a reasonable question for people that believe in a literal hell. If my mom, wife or kids are in heaven and they are truly happy knowing I am in hell, then they are no longer my mom, wife or kids as I know them. They have been changed into someone else.
 
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Petros2015

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While I love Star Trek, and kudos to you for thinking of the idea, it has no support from the Bible or any part of the Christian religion.

No support? 0.0%? Hmm. I wonder.

Romans 7

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.c]">[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Matthew 13

24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”

Most Christians do believe that there is a literal hell, and that many people will be sent there. But if they go to heaven, and their loved ones go to hell, how will they endure the pain?

This is true. I will leave them to speak for themselves.
 
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Kenny'sID

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"Could you enjoy heaven knowing of the agony of those in hell? What if those in hell are your loved ones?

It depends on what Hell is exactly. Will you please describe in detail the Hell you are referring to?
 
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Halbhh

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Christianity StackExchange cites a popular though childish rationalization:
A common argument goes: There is no sadness in Heaven. If I knew that this person I loved was in Hell that would certainly make me very sad. Therefore it must be that I won’t remember them.

Do you really think we'd just accept you trying to tell us to think this was only wishful or "childish"?

I'm really asking. Do you really imagine people would buy that?

As many here will already know, it's not wishful or hopefull guessing or imagining.

Rather, it's the surprising information given in scripture.

It would not be available to the superficial reader (who doesn't read through).

Isaiah 65:17 For behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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Well, @True Counterphobia and @mama2one , I think my answer to you would be the same. Yes, we're inconsistent; yes, perhaps we're hypocrites. Yes, there are people in other countries who are suffering and who, honestly, we don't much care about. All well and good.

But let's imagine a real scenario. When you are in heaven, and looking down and seeing your baby daughter, or the husband you loved, or your best friend since kindergarten, writhing in the flames - would you still be able to be happy in heaven?

That's kind of a loaded question, don't you think? Somethings we are not going to know this side of heaven. What we do know is that God is "righteous in all Your ways" ("Holy is the Lamb" by Sleeping Giant). Further, here on earth, it is said God, "makes the sun rise and fall on the just and the unjust" (Matthew 5:45). So it is not as though God is not enacting His mercies every moment. Of course, that is an alternative look at things from the Problem of evil. But who is to say how bad things really are on earth? I digress. The real answer is that we may not have an answer for this this side of heaven and it is possible Theologians don't actually know, in which case, you don't either.
 
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Halbhh

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To everyone, in response to the OP trying to paint us forgetting those that perish as just a "childish rationalization" ( the mistaken idea quoted in the OP) -- it is good to know or recall (as you may already know), why we will forget the evils of this current world in the afterlife because God chooses we will:

Isaiah 65:17 For behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

As I think of it, people that love will likely be saved -- God can find a way to turn them as needed:
1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

He already has His eyes on them.

But...people that do not love are rejecting Him in a very total way == 1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

And, honestly, we'd not really want people in heaven with us forever that just outright refused to love us without ever turning from that wrong and just continuing in that cruelty their whole life, who always rejected us --

and who caused those very tears that God will wipe away.

It will be for the best for those that just in the end always rejected Love to be allowed the second death, to "perish" in the "second death", if they won't even repent after all God does to pull at them.

We can't force others to accept love and grace. Think on what it means to reject love and grace one's whole life.

We do know that many who are first here will be last, and many who are last here will be first.

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Jesse Dornfeld

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Isaiah 65:17 For behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

Thanks for quoting this. I didn't realize this was in the Bible.
 
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JohnClay

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I'm sorry - what I meant is, I live in China and can't access youtube.
I can see that he wouldn't have much of a problem. It's just, I think he is not a good person for thinking like that. I would like to understand his point of view before I comment further, though.
Sorry the audio quality isn't so good....

My Christian Grandmother Went to Hell (you can listen to 9 minutes for a taste)

About Hell and The Lake of Fire (6 minutes)

Just the excerpts of this that are on YouTube: The Glory of the Punishment
 
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coffee4u

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It helps to know or recall (as you may already know), why we will forget the evils of this current world in the afterlife:

Isaiah 65:17 For behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

As I think of it, people that love will likely be saved -- God can find a way to turn them as needed:
1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

He already has His eyes on them.

But...people that do not love are rejecting Him in a very total way == 1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

And, honestly, we'd not really want people in heaven with us forever that just outright refused to love us without ever turning from that wrong and just continuing in that cruelty their whole life, who always rejected us --

and who caused those very tears that God will wipe away.

It will be for the best for those that just in the end always rejected Love to be allowed the second death, to "perish" in the "second death", if they won't even repent after all God does to pull at them.

We can't force others to accept love and grace. Think on what it means to reject love and grace one's whole life.

We do know that many who are first here will be last, and many who are last here will be first.

@HTacianas
@Under One King
@Pavel Mosko
@PloverWing
@Andrewn
@Petros2015
@com7fy8
@True Counterphobia
@JohnClay
@Kenny'sID
@mmksparbud
@coffee4u
@mama2one

I am being called? Why?
 
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