God & Free Will

cvanwey · Feb 12, 2021

com7fy8 said:
I think all of us have wills. How free each person's will is is the question.

A person in pride is not free but a slave of sin, I understand through Romans 6:17, plus through the fact that "God resists the proud" (in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5).

And the person of selfishness-infected nature is not free to love like a child of God loves. A person's character has a lot to do with if he or she can genuinely love. With Satan, I did not even know there was such a thing as how God has a person love; so how could I a selfish person in denial know that was a choice? My choices were limited to how I was in my foolish and self-dictating personality; so my will was not free, to say the least.

Only God is almighty to change our character. His grace does this, by means of the correction which I understand is meant by Hebrews 12:4-14. And this starts with being turned "from the power of Satan to God" (Acts 26:18), and trusting in Jesus for salvation and all He desires to do with us > Ephesians 1:2. God makes this change; so this is in sharing with God.

You appear to have already conceded that God controls some, and not others. But if God decides to do this, then why not just control all, instead of some? Please address what I stated to you in post #12:

"If their will is taken away by God, then it should not matter if they were humble prior. God is now controlling them regardless. Whomever God chooses, are now all under His control regardless. These folks are now drawn inexorably."

Jesse Dornfeld · Feb 12, 2021

cvanwey said:
Well, you chose option B). Can you choose to love Him, as well as also being made to be inexorably drawn to Him, both at the same time?

I would say His drawing allows us to love Him, so yes.

We are taking about free will, specifically as it pertains to your love for God. That's all. Nothing else here. You either have free will to love Him, or, you do not have free will to choose to love Him. It looks to be either/or...

It is not either or. At least that is what the theology I ascribe to teaches. You would have to be saying the theology I ascribe to does not have the capacity to have a coherent view of God and His relationship to humans. To me, this seems to paint Christian thinkers in a bad light unnecessarily.

I'm asking if you can freely choose to love Him, along side also being made to be inexorably drawn to Him, both at the same time?

And the answer is that, yes, you can. It's being drawn to Him that causes you to love Him.

Here is a video on the subject.

The problem is you do not seem to get my simple line of questioning.

A) I freely choose to love God, or not
B) I do not freely choose to love God, or not.

No, it's not that I don't understand what you are saying. What you are saying is actually very simple, right? But the problem is that the answer is more complex than an either/or. It is that the answer does not fit into that narrative.

In this case, contradictory propositions cannot both be true at the same time and in the same sense. We are speaking specifically about your love for God, and if you can freely choose to do so, or not?

I really hate to say this, but what you are advocating is a false dilemma.

Great. I'm presenting basic logic. I trust you HAVE to believe in basic logic, don't you?

When I try and tell you your categories and the assumptions they carry do not accurately depict another perfectly logical conclusion that you have not considered because it doesn't fit a particular dichotomy you have set up, I am not sure what to tell you.

Haha I'd venture to state the cards are always stacked in the Christian's favor; here in these parts

Try me. What's your reasoning for this?

Halbhh · Feb 12, 2021

Moral Orel said:
The claim generally goes that God can't make a world with free will and without evil. If He had made us all in such a way that we wouldn't ever do evil, then we would be robots. This would mean that free will inevitably leads to evil.

Since this is a statement I've made here on CF maybe 2 dozen or more times, let me point out a thing that may matter: it's not like a claim when I'm saying it, where it comes from --

Since a "claim" is an assertion that something is fact, real or true -- and therefore subject to possibly be proven or supported with evidence, or possibly can be shown false.

But I arrived at this statement from logic based on definitions.

If we define that there are good and evil actions, such as this way which Christians have: Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets. (good being to intentionally follow the rule, and evil being to intentionally and knowingly break it)

And noticing the reality that sometimes people do good actions and sometimes people do evil actions and that most everyone has done both kinds, then an observation is that we have ability and freedom of action to do good and evil, as observed.

Now, a freedom of action to do good or evil isn't automatically going to then cause that one will definitely do good or evil, or both, but only the potentiality: an ability. One might refrain from either.

Thus:

Moral Orel said:
So either God does evil, or God doesn't have free will

doesn't follow from that definition, then. Since it's about an ability, not a requirement. God might be able to do evil, but generally (normally) chose not to, and could of course in an ultimate sense, basically never do so (considering the note at the end below regarding characterization), by choice, while retaining all the time, constantly, the ability to do so, and could do so at any moment.

Of course, generally we understand that God does good, over and over and over, so consistently that we make the entirely reasonable characterization 'God is good' and the like. And we have learned over time, most of us, that some things that didn't look good at first turned out in a more subtle and ultimate way to be for the best. That's pretty key.

To realize that as you gain more understanding, your viewpoints of some things will change.

com7fy8 · Feb 12, 2021

cvanwey said:
You appear to have already conceded that God controls some, and not others.

Every person is controlled . . . in one way or another >

"God resists the proud,
.But gives grace to the humble."
. . . . . . . . .(in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5)

Either I am controlled by God's resistance, or by His grace. But, of course, the control of resistance is not the same as the control of grace. May be it is kind of like how you control your pet dog with a leash and treats, but your relationship with your child can bring a more beneficial and intimate way of controlling your child . . . by winning your child with your good example for your child's own good.

You can consider what became of ones who refused God . . . the ones mentioned in Romans 1:18-32 > how God in His control turned them over to their evil nonsense so they could not function in a good way. They refused them, He let them get away from Him so they got "worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived." (in 2 Timothy 3:13)

And I think part of your question is, were they able to get themselves to change to love God . . . genuinely and not for selfish reasons? I understand the word of God says, no they were not, going by Romans chapter nine. Only God could have changed them from their evil stuff.

So, for me, a point is I need to totally depend on God to change myself and other people for their real good. And so this is what I pray; I do not pray to people to change their own selves!

Only God can change any person so it is really right.

cvanwey said:
"If their will is taken away by God, then it should not matter if they were humble prior. God is now controlling them regardless. Whomever God chooses, are now all under His control regardless. These folks are now drawn inexorably."

I do not think there is such a thing as a person being genuinely humble before God takes away that person's will. God can take away a person's selfish and un-subject will, and then change the person to become humble. And we are so glad, as much as we have become unable to choose to do evil, but are in the kingdom of God's love, instead.

There is a major difference between being controlled in God's resistance while a person lives in one's pride, and being controlled while a person is submissive to how God rules him or her in God's own peace (Colossians 3:15). Both ways, God is controlling, but it is bad for one and so good for the other

They are not just inexorably drawn, but transformed in their character so they are capable of being submissive to our Father in His peace while they . . . we . . . grow in His love and being pleasing to our Father like Jesus is. This is not what we get ourselves to do . . . to choose . . . on our own, but >

"it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (in Philippians 2:13)

Moral Orel · Feb 12, 2021

Halbhh said:
If we define that there are good and evil actions, such as this way which Christians have: Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets. (good being to intentionally follow the rule, and evil being to intentionally and knowingly break it)

And noticing the reality that sometimes people do good actions and sometimes people do evil actions and that most everyone has done both kinds, then an observation is that we have ability and freedom of action to do good and evil, as observed.

Now, a freedom of action to do good or evil isn't automatically going to then cause that one will definitely do good or evil, or both, but only the potentiality: an ability. One might refrain from either.

Then it seems you don't make the free will argument at all, so my post doesn't apply to you, and we have to go back to the Problem of Evil and ask, "Why didn't God create people with the ability to do evil, but that won't ever actually do it?"

Halbhh · Feb 12, 2021

com7fy8 said:
Every person is controlled . . . in one way or another >

"God resists the proud,
.But gives grace to the humble."
. . . . . . . . .(in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5)

Either I am controlled by God's resistance, or by His grace. But, of course, the control of resistance is not the same as the control of grace. May be it is kind of like how you control your pet dog with a leash and treats, but your relationship with your child can bring a more beneficial and intimate way of controlling your child . . . by winning your child with your good example for your child's own good.

You can consider what became of ones who refused God . . . the ones mentioned in Romans 1:18-32 > how God in His control turned them over to their evil nonsense so they could not function in a good way. They refused them, He let them get away from Him so they got "worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived." (in 2 Timothy 3:13)

And I think part of your question is, were they able to get themselves to change to love God . . . genuinely and not for selfish reasons? I understand the word of God says, no they were not, going by Romans chapter nine. Only God could have changed them from their evil stuff.

So, for me, a point is I need to totally depend on God to change myself and other people for their real good. And so this is what I pray; I do not pray to people to change their own selves! Only God can change any person so it is really right.

I do not think there is such a thing as a person being genuinely humble before God takes away that person's will. God can take away a person's selfish and un-subject will, and then change the person to become humble. And we are so glad, as much as we have become unable to choose to do evil, but are in the kingdom of God's love, instead.

There is a major difference between being controlled in God's resistance while a person lives in one's pride, and being controlled while a person is submissive to how God rules him or her in God's own peace (Colossians 3:15). Both ways, God is controlling, but it is bad for one and so good for the other

They are not just inexorably drawn, but transformed in their character so they are capable of being submissive to our Father in His peace while they . . . we . . . grow in His love and being pleasing to our Father like Jesus is. This is not what we get ourselves to do . . . to choose . . . on our own, but >

"it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (in Philippians 2:13)

Hi friend, I think you are using the word "controlled" in a such a different way than most people think of it, that it will cause at least some people (probably) to misunderstand, and wrongly think you meant a different thing than you mean to say. Since they would just assume the more typical meaning of the word "control", as often used by Americans typically:

A typical American usage:
Control: "the power to restrain something, especially one's own emotions or actions."
Oxford Languages

It seems to me you don't mean restrained (bound, chained), exactly, or at all even, but instead a very different sense of meaning.

Like this(?) -- influenced and/or aided/facilitated.

That's so very different than restrained against one's will.

For instance, when I think of restrained, I think of someone handcuffed by police, their hands bound behind their back, unable to use their hands.

So, basically, as I see it, you need a different word here than "controlled", so that more people understand what you mean to say the way you meant it.

Halbhh · Feb 12, 2021

Moral Orel said:
Then it seems you don't make the free will argument at all, so my post doesn't apply to you, and we have to go back to the Problem of Evil and ask, "Why didn't God create people with the ability to do evil, but that won't ever actually do it?"

Because evil is merely action that knowingly takes advantage of others to their harm, for one's own seeming gain, for example. It's merely inevitable as soon as independent beings exists that have autonomy of action.

Both good actions and evil actions are merely the natural inevitability of actions being freely possible.

If you can only turn left 90 degrees, and never right 90 degrees, then you'd not have a real freedom of turning in a direction you choose.

Moral Orel · Feb 12, 2021

Halbhh said:
Both good actions and evil actions are merely the natural inevitability of actions being freely possible.

It seems like you're stuck in a loop, so I must be misunderstanding you.

Halbhh said:
Now, a freedom of action to do good or evil isn't automatically going to then cause that one will definitely do good or evil, or both, but only the potentiality: an ability. One might refrain from either.

This would mean that doing evil is not inevitable. And going back to my previous point in all of this, you said:

Halbhh said:
It's merely inevitable as soon as independent beings exists that have autonomy of action.

So god is not an independent being that has autonomy of action (God doesn't have free will) because He can't do evil.

com7fy8 · Feb 12, 2021

Halbhh said:
So, basically, as I see it, you need a different word here than "controlled", so that more people understand what you mean to say the way you meant it.

There is self-control, which can be good for managing our emotions . . . and our attention. And this works the best in the Holy Spirit.

There is restraint, like being in handcuffs. This can be good, of course

And ones say, "God is in control." And we can mean like how God has things working for His good, in the case of Joseph, in Genesis 37-50. So, in such control, He was managing wrong people for His good outcome, while also taking care of Joseph who was faithful to Him. But, also, God blessed others, even undeserving people > so, His control is all-loving.

So, yes there are people who understand control more with a negative meaning.

Control can be an ego issue . . . an idol for selfish people who want control so they can get the pleasures they want. So, indeed if you tell an egotistical person that God is in control, this can seem threatening to a person who wants one's own control of his or her life. And, of course, if someone has been abused, control can be very threatening and even a painful thing to think about.

But if I threw out every word and name which has a bad meaning for people of this world . . .

Halbhh · Feb 12, 2021

Moral Orel said:
This would mean that doing evil is not inevitable.

Yes.

In humans, we can observe, just factually, that everyone does some wrongs, sooner or later.

But we cannot necessarily generalize that onto God, to assert He would.

And then we have factually the communication to us from one Who would know, and He said:

Mark 10:18 "Why do you call Me good?" Jesus replied. "No one is good except God alone.

I've learned first hand, by hundreds of instances, repeated experiences and even testing, that when Jesus says something (in the gospel accounts) that it turns out He knows what He is talking about, and it works or is just exactly what He says. It's like the sun rising in the east, over and over -- after 1,000 times or more of seeing something work consistently, you start to realize, in your bones, that it's going to rise in the east, and never in the west.

Moral Orel · Feb 12, 2021

Halbhh said:
Yes.

In humans, we can observe, just factually, that everyone does some wrongs, sooner or later.

But we cannot necessarily generalize that onto God, to assert He would.

Yes, we do choose to do evil, but why? If it is because we have free will, then any being with free will does evil. If a being can have free will and not do evil, then having free will is at most a prerequisite for having the ability, and not the cause.

Think about this. Punching someone in the nose is evil. I must have an arm to punch someone in the nose, but having an arm doesn't make it inevitable that I will punch someone in the nose.

So if God has free will and can't do evil, then He can make people that have free will and can't do evil.

Halbhh · Feb 12, 2021

com7fy8 said:
There is self-control, which can be good for managing our emotions . . . and our attention. And this works the best in the Holy Spirit.

There is restraint, like being in handcuffs. This can be good, of course

And ones say, "God is in control." And we can mean like how God has things working for His good, in the case of Joseph, in Genesis 37-50. So, in such control, He was managing wrong people for His good outcome, while also taking care of Joseph who was faithful to Him. But, also, God blessed others, even undeserving people > so, His control is all-loving.

So, yes there are people who understand control more with a negative meaning.

Control can be an ego issue . . . an idol for selfish people who want control so they can get the pleasures they want. So, indeed if you tell an egotistical person that God is in control, this can seem threatening to a person who wants one's own control of his or her life. And, of course, if someone has been abused, control can be very threatening and even a painful thing to think about.

But if I threw out every word and name which has a bad meaning for people of this world . . .

Mmmm, I think then you mean exactly what I mean by the words "influencing" and "guided".

And that wonderful state where "God is in control" means God is proactively helping us and guiding.

When we are not in that best state, we can choose to turn and follow, we can choose to "look to Christ" -- actually chose to pray, and look to Him. Then we get the amazing help that comes. I won't call that 'control', because it's really more like "aid" and "influence" and "help" and "guidance", and isn't what people mean (95% of us) when we use the word 'control.' Control would mean we don't have a way to go differently (could not even stumble even if we tried to) and that would be...unusual at least, and probably temporary, else Peter would never have stumbled. In reality we can choose and act, and are accountable for our actions.

Halbhh · Feb 12, 2021

Moral Orel said:
Yes, we do choose to do evil, but why? If it is because we have free will, then any being with free will does evil. If a being can have free will and not do evil, then having free will is at most a prerequisite for having the ability, and not the cause.

Think about this. Punching someone in the nose is evil. I must have an arm to punch someone in the nose, but having an arm doesn't make it inevitable that I will punch someone in the nose.

So if God has free will and can't do evil, then He can make people that have free will and can't do evil.

Good questions, and actually here even the lead in question is a moment when a significant answer, the most key answer, already is -- it's the situation of the.... ....(looking for a wording).... (maybe this wording is imperfect, but I'll try it) -- the natural urge of the growing/maturing organism/being/self to try to take the reins, not only for some things one has already mastered (that's so key, not just for what we are able!)...

...but to go well past that and try much more than we are able to do, even when explicitly warned. That's one aspect of the story in the Garden of Eden, see. It was like....warned that they were not ready, could 'die' (in a sense), Eve and then Adam went ahead, distrusting God, and took the reins even of judging for themselves what was good and evil, before they were ready (which would have taken so very long to mature into being read for, due to the deepness of many situations where good and evil are less obvious).

But, doing so, they specifically also distrusted God, which is pretty key. It's as if your own 5 year old child distrusted you that he wasn't old enough to drive the family car, even after being told he could die or kill someone, and took the keys anway, and went and drove it off (and then of course naturally had a bad outcome, whether running over a mailbox, or killing a dog, or a person)....

Jesse Dornfeld · Feb 12, 2021

Halbhh said:
Hi friend, I think you are using the word "controlled" in a such a different way than most people think of it, that it will cause at least some people (probably) to misunderstand, and wrongly think you meant a different thing than you mean to say. Since they would just assume the more typical meaning of the word "control", as often used by Americans typically:

A typical American usage:
Control: "the power to restrain something, especially one's own emotions or actions."
Oxford Languages

It seems to me you don't mean restrained (bound, chained), exactly, or at all even, but instead a very different sense of meaning.

Like this(?) -- influenced and/or aided/facilitated.

That's so very different than restrained against one's will.

For instance, when I think of restrained, I think of someone handcuffed by police, their hands bound behind their back, unable to use their hands.

So, basically, as I see it, you need a different word here than "controlled", so that more people understand what you mean to say the way you meant it.

I agree "controlled" might come with negative connotations, but I also think it's apparent what they mean.

Jesse Dornfeld · Feb 12, 2021

Moral Orel said:
Yes, we do choose to do evil, but why? If it is because we have free will, then any being with free will does evil. If a being can have free will and not do evil, then having free will is at most a prerequisite for having the ability, and not the cause.

Think about this. Punching someone in the nose is evil. I must have an arm to punch someone in the nose, but having an arm doesn't make it inevitable that I will punch someone in the nose.

So if God has free will and can't do evil, then He can make people that have free will and can't do evil.

I encourage you to look at this thread I made earlier today because based on the way I see things, God doesn't really NEED to have Free Will for Him to accomplish his purposes.
Providence and Free Will

cvanwey · Feb 12, 2021

True Counterphobia said:
I would say His drawing allows us to love Him, so yes.

Okay, now we might be getting somewhere. Please stay with me. And no, I'm not trying to be condescending

1. Do you freely choose Him, or are you inexorably drawn to Him? It cannot be both, by definition.

To make things clear, let's define inexorably as "in a way that is impossible to stop or prevent".

The reason I ask this, is you state "His drawing allows us to love Him".

2. If He does not draw you, will you choose to love Him?

3. Does He draw all, or just some?

4. Many do not think He is real. Is it logical to truly have 'love' for YHWH, in the way He expects or expresses in the Bible, without first being inexorably drawn to Him? According to what you stated above, maybe not?

True Counterphobia said:
It is not either or. At least that is what the theology I ascribe to teaches. You would have to be saying the theology I ascribe to does not have the capacity to have a coherent view of God and His relationship to humans. To me, this seems to paint Christian thinkers in a bad light unnecessarily.

I have debated many Christian thinkers. You would have to pick one. Many/most do not completely agree with one another, on many 'important' topics.

Can you choose whom you love? It's an either/or question. I say you cannot choose whom you love. And to add another layer, even if you could 'choose', how much harder would it be to choose to truly love a deity you doubt exists?

True Counterphobia said:
It's being drawn to Him that causes you to love Him.

Please take careful note of what you said above. You stated, "It's being drawn to Him that causes you to love Him." According to you, being inexorably drawn to Him is the reason that causes love for Him.

If He does this for some, why not all - (as I asked in the OP)?

True Counterphobia said:
I really hate to say this, but what you are advocating is a false dilemma.

Sure, a false dichotomy can be... (A) and (not A). And in this case:

A) freely choose
B) not freely choose

To say you can simultaneously do both, would also be a contradiction, yes?

True Counterphobia said:
Try me. What's your reasoning for this?

I really do not want to derail this topic. All I will say here is the rules are stacked in the Christian's favor

Jesse Dornfeld · Feb 12, 2021

cvanwey said:
Okay, now we might be getting somewhere. Please stay with me. And no, I'm not trying to be condescending

Well that's good.

1. God draws those to himself who are saved. I have a more fleshed out view I will give.

Also, there are some people who do not react to God automatically in my view.

2. No.

3. God draws some in hopes more will come to know Him.

4. The answer is a pretty clear "No."

If you want me to flesh out 3 more, I'd be happy to.

I have debated many Christian thinkers. You would have to pick one. Many/most do not completely agree with one another, on many 'important' topics.

We are not talking about any and all beliefs of Christinity, but mine. I can't answer for every Christian; I can only answer for myself.

Can you choose whom you love? It's an either/or question. I say you cannot choose whom you love. And to add another layer, even if you could 'choose', how much harder would it be to choose to truly love a deity you doubt exists?

There are some instances where you can choose to love someone else, but you cannot choose to love God. And, for me personally, God is the easiest being in the world to love because God is love.

Please take careful note of what you said above. You stated,

"It's being drawn to Him that causes you to love Him." According to you, being inexorably drawn to Him is the reason that causes love for Him.

Correct.

If He does this for some, why not all - (as I asked in the OP)?

Because the default is that we don't love God and God chooses to save some as vessels of mercy. This is what I believe currently.

Sure, a false dichotomy can be... (A) and (not A). And in this case:

A) freely choose
B) not freely choose

To say you can simultaneously do both, would also be a contradiction, yes?

Pre-Salvation, yes. Post-Salvation, no.

I really do not want to derail this topic. All I will say here is the rules are stacked in the Christian's favor

No problem.

cvanwey · Feb 12, 2021

True Counterphobia said:
Well that's good.

1. God draws those to himself who are saved. I have a more fleshed out view I will give.

Also, there are some people who do not react to God automatically in my view.

2. No.

3. God draws some in hopes more will come to know Him.

4. The answer is a pretty clear "No."

If you want me to flesh out 3 more, I'd be happy to.

We are not talking about any and all beliefs of Christinity, but mine. I can't answer for every Christian; I can only answer for myself.

There are some instances where you can choose to love someone else, but you cannot choose to love God. And, for me personally, God is the easiest being in the world to love because God is love.

Correct.

Because the default is that we don't love God and God chooses to save some as vessels of mercy. This is what I believe currently.

Pre-Salvation, yes. Post-Salvation, no.

No problem.

It sounds like we are virtually on the exact same page. Hence, now we are up to speed, with what I asked another interlocutor - (with a slight twist for your specific case):

If one's will is taken away by God, as God causes the chosen to be inexorably drawn to Him, which-in-turn, is "the cause" for loving Him, why does it matter of their prior status? In such a case, all can be chosen.

[EDIT]

A) God chooses whom will be inexorably drawn to Him
B) Being inexorably drawn to God is the cause for truly loving God
C) Truly loving God is the criteria for salvation by God
D) Therefore, God decides whom will truly love Him

cvanwey · Feb 12, 2021

com7fy8 said:
Every person is controlled . . . in one way or another >

"God resists the proud,
.But gives grace to the humble."
. . . . . . . . .(in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5)

Either I am controlled by God's resistance, or by His grace. But, of course, the control of resistance is not the same as the control of grace. May be it is kind of like how you control your pet dog with a leash and treats, but your relationship with your child can bring a more beneficial and intimate way of controlling your child . . . by winning your child with your good example for your child's own good.

You can consider what became of ones who refused God . . . the ones mentioned in Romans 1:18-32 > how God in His control turned them over to their evil nonsense so they could not function in a good way. They refused them, He let them get away from Him so they got "worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived." (in 2 Timothy 3:13)

And I think part of your question is, were they able to get themselves to change to love God . . . genuinely and not for selfish reasons? I understand the word of God says, no they were not, going by Romans chapter nine. Only God could have changed them from their evil stuff.

So, for me, a point is I need to totally depend on God to change myself and other people for their real good. And so this is what I pray; I do not pray to people to change their own selves! Only God can change any person so it is really right.

I do not think there is such a thing as a person being genuinely humble before God takes away that person's will. God can take away a person's selfish and un-subject will, and then change the person to become humble. And we are so glad, as much as we have become unable to choose to do evil, but are in the kingdom of God's love, instead.

There is a major difference between being controlled in God's resistance while a person lives in one's pride, and being controlled while a person is submissive to how God rules him or her in God's own peace (Colossians 3:15). Both ways, God is controlling, but it is bad for one and so good for the other

They are not just inexorably drawn, but transformed in their character so they are capable of being submissive to our Father in His peace while they . . . we . . . grow in His love and being pleasing to our Father like Jesus is. This is not what we get ourselves to do . . . to choose . . . on our own, but >

"it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (in Philippians 2:13)

Seems as though God decides who will truly love Him. And apparently, truly loving Him is the criteria for salvation. This begs a follow up question...

Does God ever select any doubters, agnostics, atheists, Hindus, and others? I seem to have seen testimonials of people whom were overcome by the Christian God.

Thus, I ask again - (as asked in my OP, for option B)...

Why doesn't God just select everyone to love Him?

cvanwey · Feb 13, 2021

Halbhh said:
God doesn't take away our will/freedom. He doesn't control us like puppets (which would extensively contradict the bible if it were so).

For example the wording in prayer "not my will but thine" means one is asking things go according to the superior insight and wisdom from God. It doesn't mean we don't have will or freedom.

In post #58, the interlocutor essentially looks to concede that God decides who will love Him. I'm now waiting for him to tell me why He only does this for some, and not just all?

In post #59, the interlocutor essentially states God decides whom will love Him. This interlocutor then goes on further to state He only selects the 'humble'. I'm now waiting for this person to respond, as to why we have human testimonials of conversion, from some whom were not humble prior to their feelings of being inexorably drawn to Him?

And to respond to what you are stating, when you state "one is asking things go according to the superior insight and wisdom from God", looks to only apply to the believers. -- Which looks to ultimately be another topic, as they already believe and worship Him.

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