Where we differ is what was obeyed from the heart that made them become servants of righteousness. You seem to be heavily focused on water baptism instead of believing the gospel, which is typical in the church of Christ. I at one time had temporarily attended the church of Christ several years ago, so I understand how they try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith.
Romans 6 begins talking about baptism and being "dead" to be justified. It says NOTHING at all about faith obly in chpt 6 anywhere. Men have been commanded to be water baptized so it can be obeyed from the heart. No one has been commanded to have faith alone, no where is faith alone said to justify, in fact faith alone is said to NOT justify.
2 Thessalonians 1:8 says those who
OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL will be in flaiming fire hence the gospel is something to be OBEYED not just thought about (faith only). The gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Christ, 1 Corinthians 15:3-4. And in Romans 6 when one is water baptized the old man of sin
DIES, is literally
BURIED in a watery grave then "
RAISED UP from that watery grave"- resurrected to walk in newness of life. Only in water baptism can the gospel be OBEYED for there is no death burial or resurrection in faith obly or a sinners prayer, etc.
Since man is either obeying or disobeying (no 3rd option or middle ground) and those that do NOT OBEY will be in flaiming fire then simple logic, reason is that obedience saves. One who disobeys is lost and remains in that lost state until/unless he obeys.
Danthemailman said:
And we obey by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) in order to become servants of obedience unto righteousness. Water baptism follows. (Acts 10:43-47)
Paul spoke of OBEDIENC unto righteousness, that one first obeys then one is freed from sin. Again, Paul said those Romans obeyed from the heart he dd not say that had faith only from the heart.
Danthemailman said:
Saving faith in Christ goes beyond mere mental acknowledgment of certain facts. In James 2:19, we see that the demons "believe" mental assent that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. You cannot seem to grasp this deeper faith which trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation, which also explains why you have so much faith in water and works.
The devil's belief was dead for it would not move them to obey be repenting of sins, confession or submitting to baptism. Faith only is called faith only for it has faith by itself apart from obedience, tehrefore faith only is nothing more than mere "deep" thoughts about Christ and certain facts about Christ. WHat good is a faith one will not act upon? Nothing. You are in the window of the 3rd floor of a building on fire. The firemen yell for you to jump & they will catch you in a net. NO action in jumping shows lack of faith on your part while action in jumping shows, PROVES faith. Hence faith alone (mental acknowledgement they will catch you) is dead apart from obedient works (actually jumping).
Danthemailman said:
Abel's faith was evidenced in obedience to God's requirement for sacrifice by which he obtained witness that he was righteous. (Hebrews 11:4) His offering substantiated his faith. (James 2:18) Cain, who was of the evil one, demonstrated an evil heart by evil deeds, while Abel demonstrated a righteous heart by his righteous deeds (1 John 3:12) and that Abel offered his sacrifice by faith and Cain did not. Cain's sacrifice was evidence of his lack of faith. Abel's offering proved something about his faith that was not demonstrated by Cain's offering.
My point about Abel was he was righteous for he obeyed God in having actually going about doing the obedient work in offering the appropriate sacrifice. He did not just sit and think about offering sacrifices for that would be the same as disobeying...do nothing = disobey. You say
his offering substantiated his faith and without that obedience (substantiation) his faith would have been dead and remained dead until/unless he actually did offer the sacrifices. His obedience proved his faith, no obedience proves no faith.
Danthemailman said:
No, belief is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. Repentance is a change of mind which precedes faith and repentance and faith are two sides to the same coin. Confession is an expression of faith and water baptism follows saving faith in Christ.
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no evidential works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
Your false gospel is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics.
A free gift is not earned through multiple acts of obedience/works. See (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9)
You use the term "salvation by works" and that term gets thrown around a lot. I assume what you mean by that term is salvation by doing works of merit. You said you at one time attended the church of Christ then you know that idea is not taught. What is taught from the Bible is that salvation is a free
CONDITIONAL gift and meeting the preconditions upon a free gift does not earn/mert the free gift.
Unfortunately those who have allowed themselves to believe Luther's idea of faith only have put themselves in a position where they have to reject the common every day fact that free gifts can and do come with preconditions and meeting the preconditions NEVER earns/merits the free gift.
Religious groups as Baptists have the "
bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics" when they try and change the meaning of Greek words as '
eis' to mean "because" in a bad, flawed attempt to have one receive the free gift of salvation
BEFORE one even meets the necessary preconditions of repentance and baptism pe Acts 2:38.
To have one get the free gift
BEFORE meeting the necessary preconditions
creates illogical absurdities.
For example:
A local buisness on Saturday was giving away free hot dogs to customers who came to their store. They did not owe anyone a free hot dog so we can say they were giving them away out of their good grace. Since they were giving them away for free then there is nothing we can do to earn a hot dog. Yet that does
NOT mean there is nothing at all we can do. We can at least decide if we want a free hot dog or not. It we do not want one then we can simply do nothing and we will not get one. But if we desire one, we must meet the necessary preconditon in doing the work in going to the store. Even though going to the store is a work we do it does
not in anyway earn us the hot dog for it was still free, they gave it to for free, charged nothing. Even though we did a work that work did not take away from the freeness of the hot dogs.
Though God's gift of salvation is free and we cannot earn it that does not mean there is nothing we can do at all. Men must decide if they would like to receive that free gift or not. Those who do nothing (will not obey the gospel, 2 Thessalonians 1:8) will not get it. But those who meet the necessary preconditions in doing the obedient work of believing, repenting, confessing and submitting to baptism do receive the free gift and their work did not earn anything. As the work in going to the store did not earn the hot dog.
work in going to store-----------------------in order to receive>>>>>>>>>free gift of hot dog
Noah work building ark---------------------in order to receive>>>>>>>>>free gift of salvation of house
Israel did work of gathering manna-------in order to receive>>>>>>>>free gift of food/nutrition
Naaman dipped 7 times--------------------in order to receive>>>>>>>>free gift healing his disease
Israel marched around walls of Jericho>--in order to receive>>>>>>>>free gift of city
repent and be baptized---------------------in order to receive>>>>>>>>free gift of salvation
On the left is the
NECESSARY precondition that
FIRST MUST be met
IN ORDER to receive the free gift.
Faith onlyists claim you receive the free gift of salvation
BEFORE doing the necessary precondition of repenting and being baptized. But if we apply that idea to the other examples above it creates illogical aburdities. That is, if one receives the free gift of salvation
BEFORE repenting and being baptized then that means one somehow received a free hot dog
BEFORE he even went to the store....Noah's house was saved from the flood
BEFORE he even built the ark......Israel was eating the manna
BEFORE they even gathered it...... Naaman was healed
BEFORE he even did the work of dipping....Israel possessed the city
BEFORE they marched around it,
before the walls fell.
One is not baptized
BECAUSE he already has salvation no more than one goes to the store
BECAUSE he already has a free hot dog. Noah did not build the ark
BECAUSE he was already saved from the flood but built it
IN ORDER to be saved,
IN ORDER to receive the free gift of salvation of his house.
[I'll try and respond to the rest of your post as time permit.]
