Revelation 20:9 - Are we nearly there?

Spiritual Jew said:

In what sense is it the first resurrection then, keeping in mind that it's not the first resurrection unto bodily immortality?

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The first resurrection of Revelation 20:4-6 for the martyred great tribulation saints is for bodily immortality.

Douggg said:

The first resurrection of Revelation 20:4-6 for the martyred great tribulation saints is for bodily immortality.

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No it isn't. Rev 20:4 just says: they will be brought back to life......
The same as Lazarus was and over his too, their second death has no power, because all their names are in the Book of Life so they will receive immortality at the GWT Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.

Pauls prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:23, only applies to those Trib martyrs.
Any beliefs that ALL Christians will be raised at the Return, is wrong and contradicts Revelation 20:4-5.

keras said:

No it isn't. Rev 20:4 just says: they will be brought back to life......
The same as Lazarus was and over his too, their second death has no power, because all their names are in the Book of Life so they will receive immortality at the GWT Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.

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Lazarus was before Jesus became the firstfruits - and certainly did not live a thousand years afterward.

The martyred great tribulation saints rule and reign with Jesus a thousand years and don't have to worry about the second death (Revelation 20:6). Therefore, they are resurrected in eternal immortal bodies.

Douggg said:

Lazarus was before Jesus became the firstfruits - and certainly did not live a thousand years afterward.

The martyred great tribulation saints rule and reign with Jesus a thousand years and don't have to worry about the second death (Revelation 20:6). Therefore, they are resurrected in eternal immortal bodies.

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Sorry Douggg, but in this belief you are quite wrong.
Revelation 20:6 DOES mean those resurrected martyrs may die again, but their second death will not affect their receipt of an immortal body when their names are found in the Book of Life at the Great White Throne Judgment.
Some may live for all the Millennium, therefore they will be in the group of those who are alive at that time. As explained in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56

keras said:

Sorry Douggg, but in this belief you are quite wrong.
Revelation 20:6 DOES mean those resurrected martyrs may die again, but their second death will not affect their receipt of an immortal body when their names are found in the Book of Life at the Great White Throne Judgment.
Some may live for all the Millennium, therefore they will be in the group of those who are alive at that time. As explained in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56

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The Great White Throne Judgement is for the rest of the dead - not the resurrected great tribulation martyred saints.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Douggg said:

The Great White Throne Judgement is for the rest of the dead - not the resurrected great tribulation martyred saints.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

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Correct!
But the question was: Do those resurrected martyrs die again?
AS they do not receive immortality when Jesus Returns, they can die again. Just as Lazarus did and as Martha says: I know that in the last day, [after the Millennium] he will rise to eternal life.
There names will be found in the Book of Life and then they will go into Eternity.

Ed Parenteau said:

--In the following you will notice that the reign is both in the past tense and in the future tense.

Rev: 20:4And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

--First resurrection:
John 5:25
Matthew Poole's Commentary
The dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: some understand this concerning the special resurrection of such bodies as Christ raised while he was upon the earth from death to life, of which number was Lazarus and the daughter of Jairus, &c. Others understand it of the general resurrection, spoken of John 5:28,29. That which favoureth this sense is, because here is no mention of believing, but only hearing a voice. But the most and best interpreters rather understand these words of those who are dead in trespasses and sins, and the quickening and life mentioned Ephesians 2:1, which is called the first resurrection, Revelation 20:5, because of what was said immediately before, that such a one is passed from death to life; and what was said before, He that heareth my word, agreeth with what is said here of hearing the voice of Christ; and what followeth seemeth better to agree with this sense. And John 5:28,29 speak plainly of the second and general resurrection of the body.

They that hear shall live; those who so hear the voice of Christ in the gospel, as to give a firm and steady assent to it, and, upon the credit of it, shall receive Christ as their Mediator and Saviour, shall live eternally; they do live the life of grace, and shall live the life of glory.

--Reign with Christ:
Matthew 19: 28And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

--So, when is the regeneration? Clearly when He ascended on to His glorious throne and poured out the Spirit at Pentecost expressed in the following.

Titus 3: 5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we did in righteousness, but in accordance with His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6whom He richly poured out upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior,

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The regeneration as spiritual has not happened yet. Most reject the physical change has happened to those in Paradise. You have to have the physical regeneration first, because the physical comes first. Living humans have the Holy Spirit, at least those willing. That is not regeneration, that is living on borrowed credit.

John witnessed and lived through the millennium up until the NHNE. It was past tense to him. The Second Coming has to happen first, then the regeneration. That is still future.

Timtofly said:

The regeneration as spiritual has not happened yet. Most reject the physical change has happened to those in Paradise. You have to have the physical regeneration first, because the physical comes first. Living humans have the Holy Spirit, at least those willing. That is not regeneration, that is living on borrowed credit.

John witnessed and lived through the millennium up until the NHNE. It was past tense to him. The Second Coming has to happen first, then the regeneration. That is still future.

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You don't believe that people are spiritually born again when they receive Jesus?

claninja said:

Doesn’t answer my question. you agree that Christ is the 1st to rise from the grave. Do you then disagree that those who partake in Christ’s resurrection are already raised with him to sit in the heavenly realms (Ephesians 2:6), cannot be hurt by the 2nd death (john 11:25-27), and are a kingdom of priests (1 Peter 2:9)?

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The first resurrection is a physical bodily resurrection. Do you agree that all in Paradise currently have a permanent incorruptible physical body, just like Christ? If not, then you deny the first resurrection to the whole church.

Douggg said:

Lazarus was before Jesus became the firstfruits - and certainly did not live a thousand years afterward.

The martyred great tribulation saints rule and reign with Jesus a thousand years and don't have to worry about the second death (Revelation 20:6). Therefore, they are resurrected in eternal immortal bodies.

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The church does not live on earth. The church is only in Paradise. Revelation 20:4 is the physical resurrection to live on earth, not in Paradise.

The thousand years cannot even start until after the Second Coming. There will be no more Adam flesh, but resurrection of the physical type in the manner of the first resurrection of Christ. Strictly physical, because the first resurrection is not spiritual at all. Not even now. Our spirit is put on like a robe of white in the 5th and 6th Seal, which is soon, but still future.

2 Corinthians 5:2-3

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

Revelation 6:11
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them.

Revelation 7:13-14
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

That is not the 70 weeks, 7th week, nor any of the periods of wrath. The great tribulation is the church age of the last 1990 years. These are the whole church complete and serving as priest in the Temple of God, Paradise. This priesthood started at the Cross and the removal of the OT church from Abraham's bosom. The robes were given to the church at the opening of the 5th and 6th Seals. The church is complete glorified and restored to the full image of God as sons of God before the 7th Seal is even opened.

Then the first Trumpet sounds and the sheep and wheat is harvested by God, the Lamb, the 144k, and the angels. Since the church is complete these souls are harvested and are directly resurrected in a physical (first resurrection) incorruptible body in Revelation 20. The sheep and wheat of those humans currently alive, not dead in sheol, reign on earth for 1000 years. No one in sheol or Death are resurrected until the GWT. Revelation 20:4 can never be about the church. It is the regeneration of the physical Jacob and physical nations on earth. It is not even a resurrection for those who are dead at this moment. God is not a God of the dead, who have already chosen in the past. God works with living souls prior to death.

What happens at the GWT is also no concern of the current living. God is a Sovereign God, and the Lamb's book of life will be opened. Not in judgment. It is there to remove names. The introduction of Death in the 4th Seal will change the paradigm of choice. Those who enter Death, after the opening of the 7th Seal are placed there, because each time they enter, they have already been removed from the Lamb's book of life. That is the indication in Revelation whenever the Lamb's book of life is mentioned in connection to having the mark of the beast. This phenomenon can only take place after the Second Coming when God and the Lamb are present on earth, and there is a clear choice between Death and Life.

Freedm said:

You said he would reign on earth during the thousand years. Without proof.

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Revelation 19 and 20 are proof the scene is on earth and never changed to heaven. The burden of proof can only change if you provide the details of a change from earth to heaven. My proof is the scene is on earth and never changes.

Douggg said:

You don't believe that people are spiritually born again when they receive Jesus?

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They are born of the Holy Spirit. They do not recieve a glorified return of their spirit that "died" when Adam disobeyed God. Those currently in Paradise are still waiting for that moment as well. Those in Paradise have partaken of the first resurrection, a physical incorruptible permanent body. The second resurrection (spiritual) does not happen until the 5th and 6th Seal. Using the word spiritual has too many connotations. Being born of the Holy Spirit is a fact. It is the constant crucification of the flesh, few care to engage in, in the current wealth of today's lifestyle.

Many in less technologically advanced areas where the comforts of life are less exhausting, may have a closer spiritual walk with God. Yes there are still humans of faith in God who put God first in a fast paced world. Most though tend to conflate physical blessings with being spiritual. That is not the case. Those completely consumed by the Holy Spirit care not for the physical at all.

There is really no difference though between spiritual and physical. Both are equally created by God. Sin and separation from God is the issue. So is conflating a physical reign of Christ which is still future. The majority of the church is in Paradise. But this time is still not the physical regeneration promised in the OT to Jacob, it is not even the spiritual regeneration. Only after the deception of Satan is removed will the physical and spiritual be united as one.

Timtofly said:

The church does not live on earth. The church is only in Paradise

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In Revelation, the messages are to the 7 church's located here on earth.

Timtofly said:

The regeneration as spiritual has not happened yet. Most reject the physical change has happened to those in Paradise. You have to have the physical regeneration first, because the physical comes first. Living humans have the Holy Spirit, at least those willing. That is not regeneration, that is living on borrowed credit.

John witnessed and lived through the millennium up until the NHNE. It was past tense to him. The Second Coming has to happen first, then the regeneration. That is still future.

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I believe your thinking of the "restoration" of all things.

Freedm said:

Obviously for anyone to believe we're almost there, they would have to believe that we're currently living in the millennium, which I realize many people do not, but even from those people I ask to consider what they believe this time will look like and contribute to the conversation on that level.

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Greetings in Christ JESUS

We are living in the beginning of this first century of the seventh and last millennium, or seventh and last Day. Six Day Creation? No Way! post #32

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one Day. - 2 Peter 3:v.8

Douggg said:

In Revelation, the messages are to the 7 church's located here on earth.

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I agree. They were to be faithful Stewards until the Second Coming.

Oseas said:

The tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. The tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on FIRE the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
James 3

Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Destruction and misery are in their ways:

And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Romans 3

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The post above #218 now quoted here, referred to an unclean, filthy or piggishy message posted by an UNCLEAN spirit, spirit of demon-Revelation 16:v.13-, and I see now the foul message was deleted, but it is not reported unfortunately, so the Word of God quoted above seems as I fought as one that beats or speak to the air.

The correct thing would be to register: message # ... was deleted.