Law and Prophets until John

Mercy74 · Feb 11, 2021

Laureate said:
נביאי ותורת Prophets OF the Toruth v.s. נביאי ותורת Prophets AND the Toruth.

Carefully note how the word Toruth Law(s) is used in the following contexts, and how a clear distinction is made between the Toruth of the Prophets, and the Toruth of Môsʰé.

• Neither have we obeyed the Voice of Yᵊhûʷəh our Alôhâ, to walk in his Toruth, which he set before us by his Servants the Prophets.

Yea, all Îsʰrəél have transgressed your Toruth, even by departing, that they might not obey your Voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the Toruth of Môsʰé the servant of Alôʰhéyîm, because we have sinned against him. [ref., Daniel 9:10-11]

In the following passage Yᵊsʰûʷəʰ quotes Psalms 82:6 saying, is it not written in your Toruth....

• Yᵊsʰûʷəʰ answered them, Is it not written in your Toruth, I said, You are Alôʰhéyîm? [ref., John 10:34]

Establishing all things by two or three, we can conclude that the term Torah-Toruth does not pertain exclusively to the writings of Môsʰé.

And we should also recognize the example and clarification provided by Daniel, where an ascription accompanies the term Toruth, to let one know whether a text pertains unto the entire Toruth, or a particular segment of the Toruth.

Because the name, Môsʰé, is not mentioned in the following passage, whereas the title, 'Prophets', is clearly specified, the passage should read, '...all of the Prophets of the Toruth Prophesied until John.', and not, '...all of the Prophets, and the Toruth Prophesied until John. [Matthew 11:13]

Thus (with this clarification) one can see that Yᵊsʰûʷəʰ was not declaring John to be the last prophet, he was declaring John to be Malachi [the Angel-Messenger of Yah], who indeed was the Last Prophet of the Toruth.

• For all of the Prophets of the Toruth Prophesied until John. [Matthew 11:13]

This was stated to recognize the extent of the written Toruth being from the First Prophet unto John, and thereby signify the Last of Toruth writings;

This was also stated to reiterate what Yᵊsʰûʷəʰ had already declared, that John was Malachi, and thirdly this was stated to reveal unto those who have an ear to hear that, John was Father Abvrᵊhəm, for the First person Called to work in the Vineyard, is also the Last person Called to work in the Vineyard.

Now we know what the preceding verse says (Matthew 11:12);

From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it.

From the "days of John" until John ended his ministry; John was beheaded; Yeshua was crucified; the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence. From the days or birth of Yeshua, little boys were being murdered (Matthew 2:16), even during the time or birth of Moses; little boys were being murdered (Exodus 1:16).

The kingdom of heaven has suffered much violence and violent people have been raiding it.

Matthew 23:35
And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

Moses the priest, John the priest & Yeshua the Messiah were hidden or rescued from the violence and they preached that the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Moses the priest lead the children of Israel to the promise land where the kingdom of heaven would be established on earth.

visionary · Feb 11, 2021

The Prophets and the Law have not changed. The violence has not stopped. The days of John has historically not even made a blimp, other than his baptism of Yeshua. That is the only significance in the web of history. I too, am puzzled by the choice of words, the significance, the meaning, and the why?

chunkofcoal · Feb 12, 2021

visionary said:
The Prophets and the Law have not changed. The violence has not stopped. The days of John has historically not even made a blimp, other than his baptism of Yeshua. That is the only significance in the web of history. I too, am puzzled by the choice of words, the significance, the meaning, and the why?

This may not help either, but there is something I believe is connected to what Yeshua said. It's something to look into, anyway:

“Rabbi Yehoshua said: I have a tradition from Rabbi Yochanan, the son of Zakkai, who heard it from his teacher, and his teacher from his teacher—a law to Moses from Sinai—that Eliyahu will not come to declare people pure or impure, to distance people or to bring into purity those who are declared impure, but rather to distance those who were brought near by force, and to bring close those who were distanced by force…Rabbi Yehudah says: to bring [people] close, but not to [make people] distant. Rabbi Shimon says: to resolve arguments. The Sages say: He will not come to make distant or to bring close, but to make peace in the world, as it says (Malachi 3:23-24), 'Behold, I will send you Eliyahu the prophet before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord. And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers'" (Eduyot 8:7)."

Joyous Song · Feb 12, 2021

visionary said:
"The law and the prophets were until John, any other prophets after are false." This was a quote I have taken from another thread. I think it deserves its own thread, for us to mull further.

If it is true, then what are the two witnesses of Revelation? If it is true, the what about all the other "prophets" that have come forward with their prophetic word?

If it is not true, then how should we read and understand this verse to mean? Your thoughts and comments appreciated.

The two witnesses are not prophets, their are witnesses or even martyrs.

HARK! · Feb 12, 2021

Joyous Song said:
The two witnesses are not prophets, their are witnesses or even martyrs.

What about the Book of Revelation, in where of they are written? Is that book prophetic?

Joyous Song · Feb 12, 2021

HARK! said:
What about the Book of Revelation, in where of they are written? Is that book prophetic?

Yes, but the reason their are no prophets is John was under the Church leadership who read and affirmed his vision. So was it prophecy, yes, its in canon but after john all "prophets" must be tested by leadership first. This is what is different. see my post Prophets in the New Covenant

My husband and I also did a study on those two witnesses based on what Zechariah states about them you can find those here:

Y'hoshua: Zechariah 3

Zerub'babel: Zechariah 4

visionary · Feb 12, 2021

Joyous Song said:
Yes, but the reason their are no prophets is John was under the Church leadership who read and affirmed his vision. So was it prophecy, yes, its in canon but after john all "prophets" must be tested by leadership first. This is what is different. see my post Prophets in the New Covenant

My husband and I also did a study on those two witnesses based on what Zechariah states about them you can find those here:

Y'hoshua: Zechariah 3

Zerub'babel: Zechariah 4

They are prophetic in their words they speak, they say and it happens. Prophets say first and time goes on before fulfillment, and in some cases have yet to be fulfilled....but the witnesses' time frame from spoken to actually is almost on top of each other. Does that make them less of a prophet?

Laureate · Feb 12, 2021

Joyous Song said:
The two witnesses are not prophets, their are witnesses or even martyrs.

In the first Advent both John and Yᵊsʰûʷəʰ were (amongst other things) both deemed to be a Prophet, and an Angel, each came to bear Witness, of one another, and they both also happened to be Martyrs.

One primary difference between a Prophet and an Angel is that, though both Speak the Word of Alôʰhéyîm, an Angel is (specifically) One who is Sent.

Laureate · Feb 12, 2021

visionary said:
The Prophets and the Law have not changed. The violence has not stopped. The days of John has historically not even made a blimp, other than his baptism of Yeshua. That is the only significance in the web of history. I too, am puzzled by the choice of words, the significance, the meaning, and the why?

Sin has a Quota, and until all of our ill propensities have been fished out, exposed, and dealt with, it would be catastrophic to enter into Eternity with one ill propensity.

So many presuming they are worthy to enter into Eternity, think to themselves, Why does Heaven wait any longer, Wipe out the Wicked already, and lets get on with this...., and I assure you, that if the Quota of 144,000 were met, and the Quota for Sin has been met, then there would not be much left in the way to prevent the ushering in of D Day.

Laureate · Feb 12, 2021

When Lot refused to go to the Mountain as instructed, a town called Zoar was Spared, When the Children of Îsʰrəél refused to enter the Mountain of Alôʰhéyîm (when the trumpet sounded Long), the Earth was spared from the infernal Global D Day, which is yet pending to this very day.

visionary · Feb 14, 2021

Laureate said:
Sin has a Quota, and until all of our ill propensities have been fished out, exposed, and dealt with, it would be catastrophic to enter into Eternity with one ill propensity.

So many presuming they are worthy to enter into Eternity, think to themselves, Why does Heaven wait any longer, Wipe out the Wicked already, and lets get on with this...., and I assure you, that if the Quota of 144,000 were met, and the Quota for Sin has been met, then there would not be much left in the way to prevent the ushering in of D Day.

Quota met will definitely be the at the closing of the book.

Joyous Song · Feb 19, 2021

visionary said:
They are prophetic in their words they speak, they say and it happens. Prophets say first and time goes on before fulfillment, and in some cases have yet to be fulfilled....but the witnesses' time frame from spoken to actually is almost on top of each other. Does that make them less of a prophet?

JS: yet in Scripture they are never called prophets, just witnesses or martyrs. And Zechariah 13 clearly states that anyone who says, “I’m a prophet” will be struck down by Mother and father, 3. It also states that henceforth there will be only no-prophets, 4-5. And John’s visions where tested by the Church and found worthy when they included them in canon. Martin Luther wanted to remove John visions, but being a priest he lacked the authority.

Likewise, Zeru’babel being a pope, Zech.4.9, means he is anointed through his office to prophecy. Zech.4 clearly shows Zeru’babel lifting up the stone, 7, that sits beneath Y’hoshua, 3.9, which is those men of good omen, 8. This in turn implies Y’hoshua is anointed by Zeru’babel. This act is tied to HaShem, praise be He, bring the Branch, or HaMoshiach Ben Dovid also 8.

This is the difference between prophets of the Hebrew Scriptures and those that came after the Gospel message went out. John the Baptist was the last prophet and hence forth all who prophecy must be tested as John the Evangelist was when his vision was accepted and anointed as canon.

visionary · Feb 20, 2021

I love it when leaders are the judge other men trust. Many a humble man never in any position of authority within any religious organization was in visionary presence of God and came to tell others of their experience and what they leaned like John the revelator.

Law and Prophets until John

Mercy Messianic Judaism

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Messianic Christian

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שמע

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Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?

whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?

whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Well-Known Member

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

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