Women Priests.

Lawrence87

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All knowledge is filtered through the golden rule book. It's a book Paul didn't have.
What Does the Bible Say About The Golden Rule?

Its not clear to me how not allowing women to speak in Church violates the golden rule, nor is it clear to me that the golden rule is a universal lens for looking at scripture.

If I was a woman I would not expect to be allowed to speak in Church.

Any unconfirmed ideology is like sitting on the tip end
of a dead tree limb that hasn't been shaken.

The writings of St. Paul are in the Bible because they are divinely inspired. We don't get to hack away at scriptures and just get rid of the ones we dislike, or that do not conform to modern sensibilities.


But we're not using this world to justify scripture.
We are using scripture to justify what we should be doing in this world.

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Luke 6:31
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

Ephesians 4
Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

Romans 13:9
For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment,
are summed up in this word:
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Mark 12:31
The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Matthew 22:39
And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Matthew 19:19
Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Matthew 5:44
But I say to you, Love your enemies...

James 2:8
If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.

Romans 13:8-10
Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment,
are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Luke 10:27
And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”

Mark 12:33
And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

Matthew 22:37-40
And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

Ephesians 4:32
Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

Again you are making the assumption that not allowing women to speak in Church is an act of hatred. You are reading that into it based on modern assumptions about equality. Not all differential treatment is indicative of hatred. So I don't know what you are trying to prove.
 
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SkyWriting

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Its not clear to me how not allowing women to speak in Church violates the golden rule, nor is it clear to me that the golden rule is a universal lens for looking at scripture.

I understand that. It's from scripture, not any church speeches.

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Luke 6:31
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

Ephesians 4
Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

Romans 13:9
For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment,
are summed up in this word:
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Mark 12:31
The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Matthew 22:39
And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Matthew 19:19
Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Matthew 5:44
But I say to you, Love your enemies...

James 2:8
If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.

Romans 13:8-10
Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment,
are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Luke 10:27
And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”

Mark 12:33
And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

Matthew 22:37-40
And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

Ephesians 4:32
Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
 
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Lawrence87

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I really don't think that modern, confident women need the protection of "gracious" men telling them what they can and can't do.

Well, they can certainly go and speak in many of the Churches that don't follow what the Bible teaches, or they are free to go and follow whatever other religion they please.

But they aren't allowed to become preists in the Orthodox Church, and I am defending that position. We would say that it is gracious not to allow people to blunder into things that might affect the Lord's judgement of them. It's also worth noting that we do not allow children to be preists or anyone that is not sanctioned by the Church, so its not like the priesthood is a boys club, its pretty exclusive even among men.
 
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SkyWriting

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If I was a woman I would not expect to be allowed to speak in Church.

"If I was a them" is not in the passages.

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you
wish that others would do to you,
do also to them,
for this is the Law and the Prophets.
 
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Lawrence87

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I understand that. It's from scripture, not any church speeches.

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Luke 6:31
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

Ephesians 4
Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

Romans 13:9
For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment,
are summed up in this word:
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Mark 12:31
The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Matthew 22:39
And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Matthew 19:19
Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Matthew 5:44
But I say to you, Love your enemies...

James 2:8
If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.

Romans 13:8-10
Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment,
are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Luke 10:27
And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”

Mark 12:33
And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

Matthew 22:37-40
And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

Ephesians 4:32
Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

Again, you are still putting the assumption behind all this copy pasta that denying women entry into the priesthood is because the Church hates them. That is not so.
 
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SkyWriting

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If I was a woman I would not expect to be allowed to speak in Church.

Then for you, individually you might keep a woman a pregnant year after year. You would be justified in doing that to others, if that is how you'd want to be treated.

It's the moral framework for every aspect of life and love and law.
Treat the other person, just as you wish to be treated.
 
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SkyWriting

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Again, you are still putting the assumption behind all this copy pasta that denying women entry into the priesthood is because the Church hates them. That is not so.

Love is - Treating others the way you'd want them to treat you.
The opposite of Love is Apathy, not hate.

John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.

The opposite of love is ignoring others. And yes, that is exactly the problem.
 
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Hmm

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Well, they can certainly go and speak in many of the Churches that don't follow what the Bible teaches

But they aren't allowed to become preists in the Orthodox Church, and I am defending that position.

I'm sure you can do that without saying that churches like the Church of England do not follow the Bible.
 
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Lawrence87

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"If I was a them" is not in the passages.

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you
wish that others would do to you,
do also to them,
for this is the Law and the Prophets.

If I was a woman I would not expect to be allowed to join the priesthood (at least not in the Orthodox church, which is what I am defending here).

If I had no arms I would not expect to be allowed to do certain things an able bodied person can do.

If I was mute, I would not expect to give speeches.

If I couldn't write I would not expect to be able to become an author

If I was fat and unfit I would not expect to be able to compete against anyone who was

Because I am not those things I doesn't mean I should avoid doing those things in my current position of being able to. It doesn't violate the golden rule.
 
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Lawrence87

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I'm sure you can do that without saying that churches like the Church of England do not follow the Bible.

Well the Bible pretty unambigously says women should not speak in Church. So allowing them to become priests does not follow from that...

Of course they do follow it in some regard I am sure, but not in that regard
 
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SkyWriting

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The writings of St. Paul are in the Bible because they are divinely inspired. We don't get to hack away at scriptures and just get rid of the ones we dislike, or that do not conform to modern sensibilities.

We do get to hack away our mistakes about how to treat other people, women, prostitutes, priests etc.

John 14:15
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
 
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Hmm

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Well the Bible pretty unambigously says women should not speak in Church.

In your opinion. Many Christians and churches think otherwise and it is certainly not for you to pronounce them unbiblical. Judge not etc...
 
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SkyWriting

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If I was a woman I would not expect to be allowed to join the priesthood (at least not in the Orthodox church, which is what I am defending here).

If I had no arms I would not expect to be allowed to do certain things an able bodied person can do.

If I was mute, I would not expect to give speeches.

If I couldn't write I would not expect to be able to become an author

If I was fat and unfit I would not expect to be able to compete against anyone who was

Because I am not those things I doesn't mean I should avoid doing those things in my current position of being able to. It doesn't violate the golden rule.


We are to treat all others as equals.
Just as you'd like them to treat you as an equal.

This has nothing do with abilities or sex, the level or priesthood or cardinalship or presidential standing, or chosen gender.
It's about how we are to treat others identically to how we'd WISH to be treated.

Matthew 7:12
“1, So whatever you wish that others would do to you,
2.,do also to them,
3. for this is the Law and the Prophets.
 
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SkyWriting

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Well the Bible pretty unambiguously says women should not speak in Church.

If you read it carefully, it says that the local law requires that, so yes, they should do that.

ALL throughout scripture, scripture holds that local laws are to be followed.
It could be laws about women, about clothing, about hair....all local laws should be followed by believers.

There are other religions that say God's laws are first over local law.
Not Christianity.
 
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Lawrence87

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Still evading the point. You are to treat all others as equals.
Just as you'd like them to treat you as an equal.

This has nothing do with abilities or sex, or chosen gender.
It's about how we are to treat others identically to how we'd WISH to be treated.

Matthew 7:12
“1, So whatever you wish that others would do to you,
2.,do also to them,
3. for this is the Law and the Prophets.

You are imagining that the golden rule means treating others equally across the board without accounting for the differences that exist between people. It doesn't necessitate that.

I would wish for others to allow me to drive a car if I wanted to, but I would not allow a child to drive a car. That doesn't violate the golden rule, because the golden rule is not something that can be applied blindly to every situation regardless of any context.
 
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SkyWriting

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You are imagining that the golden rule means treating others equally across the board without accounting for the differences that exist between people. It doesn't necessitate that.

I would wish for others to allow me to drive a car if I wanted to, but I would not allow a child to drive a car. That doesn't violate the golden rule, because the golden rule is not something that can be applied blindly to every situation regardless of any context.

Yes, every situation, regardless of context. So it says so:

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Mark 12:31
The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Not even what you think Paul was saying. But he was simply saying that local law required women to be silent. If local laws could not be charged, then women still could not own property. Or vote. But local laws can be changed. This is God's will.

If "Women should not speak" was God's law, then we would have a note in our bibles referring to the "women not speaking law. "

But Paul was referring to local law written somewhere. Women get to speak now.
 
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SkyWriting

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I'll put it this way, if I wished to become a priest in the Orthodox Church, I would want them to apply their rules to me, and if that excluded me I'd accept it.

The rule is for you and how you treat others. The law is different for every person.
 
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SkyWriting

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You are imagining that the golden rule means treating others equally across the board without accounting for the differences that exist between people. It doesn't necessitate that.

I would wish for others to allow me to drive a car if I wanted to, but I would not allow a child to drive a car. That doesn't violate the golden rule, because the golden rule is not something that can be applied blindly to every situation regardless of any context.

Yes, every situation. Every context.

If you are a child who wants to drive a car, you are to treat other people as if they also wanted to be big enough to drive a car. So if you think you are old enough to drive, then you must offer other kids the ability to drive. YOU DON"T get special treatment over others.

If you get to drive, they get to drive. You treat others the same as you would want to be treated by them.



If a woman wants to be a priest, you should treat her just as if it was you wanting.
 
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The rule is for you and how you treat others. The law is different for every person.
If the rule is for "you," and is about how "you" treat other individuals, I have to assume that your conclusion is that we cannot fault any denomination for maintaining an all-male priesthood.
 
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