Systematic Theology? (Please Read Thoroughly)

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Fervent

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That works real well in Cartesian analytical geometry also.

Your discrediting of it demonstrates your lack of knowledge regarding it. . .explaining a lot. . . .a. t., where are you?
And in real world applications that sort of abstract analytic geometry takes a back seat to analysis that establishes a context sensitive framework. I'm not discarding systematic theology, simply pointing out that it must be part of a feedback loop otherwise its dominated by external concerns. Proper contextual exegesis must be done on passages in order to ensure that the impression given on a stripped down reading is accurate. Naked systematic theology is nothing more than an excuse to introduce human philosophies into the mix and elevate them to the level of Scripture by making them unassailable doctrine.
 
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Clare73

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And in real world applications that sort of abstract analytic geometry takes a back seat to analysis that establishes a context sensitive framework. I'm not discarding systematic theology, simply pointing out that it must be part of a feedback loop otherwise its dominated by external concerns. Proper contextual exegesis must be done on passages in order to ensure that the impression given on a stripped down reading is accurate. Naked systematic theology is nothing more than an excuse to introduce human philosophies into the mix and elevate them to the level of Scripture by making them unassailable doctrine.
So you think systematic theology pays no attention to the context of a text, knows nothing of the context of the whole counsel of God, and is just an excuse to introduce human philosophies into Scripture. . .

Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black. . .and I repeat:

God forbid! . . .that we should try to organize the parts so we can understand the whole!

Much better just to have a vague awareness of it all, not really knowing what the truth of it is. . .leaves you free to believe your own truth because Biblical truth is just all so vague. . .you know, poor God, he designed us, but he doesn't know how to communicate to us in a way we can truly understand. . .its just all so regrettable. . .his arm being too short and all. . .so sad.

Their God is too small, their theology too human and their wisdom too finite.

But then, what else would you expect from a methodology that handles the God-breathed Holy Scriptures as though
they were mere human literature.

The divines of old would turn over in their graves at such a notion.
 
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Fervent

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So you think systematic theology pays no attention to the context of a text, knows nothing of the context of the whole counsel of God, and is just an excuse to introduce human philosophies into Scripture. . .

Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black. . .and I repeat:

God forbid! . . .that we should try to organize the parts so we can understand the whole!

Much better just to have a vague awareness of it all, not really knowing what the truth of it is. . .leaves you free to believe your own truth because Biblical truth is just all so vague. . .you know, poor God, he designed us, but he doesn't know how to communicate to us in a way we can truly understand. . .its just all so regrettable. . .his arm being too short and all. . .so sad.

Their God is too small, their theology too human and their wisdom too finite.

But then, what else would you expect from a methodology that handles the God-breathed Holy Scriptures as though
they were mere human literature.

The divines of old would turn over in their graves at such a notion.
There are multiple things known as "systematic theology" so I should be clear what I am speaking to is the technical version where it is a method of taking verses that appear to be commenting on a particular topic and then weighing them against each other without regard for their context. This methodology is rife to insert human philosophies especially as they build on themselves. It ignores that the Bible was given as a contextual document, its method of communication for each aspect unique and has and continues to insert theological discourse to the level of Scripture. Your characterization which excludes any notion of nuanced positions making it either black or white or too vague to be worthwhile is nothing more than a strawman. The Bible was revealed with a specific context, both literary and historic, and failing to account for that context is inviting external influences to override the authentic voice of Scripture. Which is exactly what many who cling to systems unwaiveringly do through their human philosophies masquerading with Biblical dress.
 
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Clare73

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I'm not discarding systematic theology, simply pointing out that it must be part of a feedback loop otherwise its dominated by external concerns. Proper contextual exegesis must be done on passages in order to ensure that the impression given on a stripped down reading is accurate. Naked systematic theology is nothing more than an excuse to introduce human philosophies into the mix and elevate them to the level of Scripture by making them unassailable doctrine.
Clare73 said:
So you think systematic theology pays no attention to the context of a text, knows nothing of the context of the whole counsel of God, and is just an excuse to introduce human philosophies into Scripture. . .
There are multiple things known as "systematic theology" so I should be clear
what I am speaking to is the technical version
where it is a method of taking verses that appear to be commenting on a particular topic and then weighing them against each other without regard for their context.
Strawman. . .pray tell, what student of Scripture uses that method.
This methodology is rife to insert human philosophies especially as they build on themselves. It ignores that the Bible was given as a contextual document, its method of communication for each aspect unique and has and continues to insert theological discourse to the level of Scripture. Your characterization which excludes any notion of nuanced positions making it either black or white or too vague to be worthwhile is nothing more than a strawman.
The Bible was revealed with a specific context,
The Bible is 66 books, each with their own context. There is no "specific context for the Bible."
both literary and historic, and failing to account for that context
That's Bible 101. . .who doesn't know that?
All of that has been done for centuries without handling the God-breathed Scriptures as mere human literature.
You're laboring the obvious.
is inviting external influences to override the authentic voice of Scripture. Which is exactly what many who cling to systems unwaiveringly do through their human philosophies masquerading with Biblical dress.
Sounds like a rationale for a weak grasp of the whole counsel of God.
 
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Fervent

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Strawman. . .pray tell, what student of Scripture uses that method.The Bible is 66 books, each with their own context. There is no "specific context for the Bible."That's Bible 101. . .who doesn't know that?
All of that has been done for centuries without handling the God-breathed Scriptures as mere human literature.
You're laboring the obvious.Sounds like a rationale for a weak grasp of the whole counsel of God.

Systematic theology is about doing exactly that...drawing out individual verses and then weighing them to create a "total biblical picture" that ignores the individual context. You keep throwing a strawman by saying "human literature" when I've simply pushed taking into account the literary context by treating each book as it is. Like you said, every book of the Bible has a unique context but we can moderate our expectations and understandings depending on the particular genre. It's no strawman to describe systematic theology for exactly what it is, which is taking verses in isolation as proof texts for a given doctrinal position. Devoid of proper exegesis it is nothing more than an excuse to elevate human philosophies to the level of Scripture and enshrine them so they are unasailable. Real theology is a messy thing, with lots of nuance because theology is about practical living in relationship with God not simply answering academic questions in a black-or-white fashion.
 
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Clare73

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Systematic theology is about doing exactly that

It's no strawman to describe systematic theology for exactly what it is,
Not in my neck of the woods.

Now that's a strawman!
]drawing out individual verses and then weighing them to create a "total biblical picture" that ignores the individual context. You keep throwing a strawman by saying "human literature" when I've simply pushed taking into account the literary context by treating each book as it is. Like you said, every book of the Bible has a unique context but we can moderate our expectations and understandings depending on the particular genre. It's no strawman to describe systematic theology for exactly what it is, which is taking verses in isolation as proof texts for a given doctrinal position. Devoid of proper exegesis it is nothing more than an excuse to elevate human philosophies to the level of Scripture and enshrine them so they are unasailable. Real theology is a messy thing, with lots of nuance because theology is about practical living in relationship with God not simply answering academic questions in a black-or-white fashion.
 
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Fervent

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Not in my neck of the woods.

Now that's a strawman!

Try this on for size: THE GLORY OF CHRIST JESUS

Perhaps a study of Leviticus would be helpful, so here's a tool for its study, chapter by chapter, up to 16 chapters.

It will be notes of explanation which depend on first reading the chapter,
then consulting the notes given on relevant verses for more in-depth meaning.

Leviticus is extremely rich in meaning, and should not be gobbled down, but digested slowly.
Just skimming such rich material in curiousity is not the way to handle the word of God.

It is for storing up your heart, not just your head.

Introduction to Leviticus:

1. Leviticus can be called the seedbed and plumb line of NT theology,
because in it can be seen so many "patterns of the things to come" (Heb 10:1) in Christ.
But the seeds are buried in the details, so it is the details that will be examined.

2. Problem presented and addressed by Leviticus:
  • to come into the presence of God is to come before the holiness and justice of God
  • sin defiles the purity of God's presence
  • sin is to God, as infection is to an operating room
  • God cannot tolerate sin, it is an affront to his holiness; therefore to come into his presence defiled by sin is to invoke the wrath of divine justice on sin (Ex 19:21-24)
  • Leviticus addresses the problem of how sinful man can come into the presence of a holy God
  • Leviticus reveals there is only one way to be received by God in mercy instead of wrath--the blood of sacrifice, offered by the priest
  • all other ways of approaching God leave you exposed to divine justice and eternal death (Jn 14:6) because of sin
  • Leviticus also reveals there is no sacrifice for deliberate (defiant) sin (type of NT unforgiveable sin--unbelief)
3. Leviticus drives home
  • the holiness of God
  • the nature of sin
  • how an unholy people can approach a holy God; i.e., first, sin must be dealt with.
The patterns which can be seen in the ceremonies in Leviticus teach important
a) spiritual truth
  • nature and character of God
  • nature and work of Christ
  • nature of grace
b) principles - of holiness (set apart--from sin, and to God)

(con't in following link)

Leviticus: Seedbed of NT Theology
That "study" speaks exactly to my point. It's front loaded with the system and then tears into leviticus with the system in mind. Claiming the 'olah was a voluntary offering "not for sin" is entirely false as it is intimately linked with "soothing" God's wrath through the smoke...in fact, it is the ONLY offering that the text itself links with wrath both here and in Genesis. There's no investigation of the words of the text, no careful contextual exegesis just theological statements made to force-fit the data into the preferred system.
 
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Clare73

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That "study" speaks exactly to my point. It's front loaded with the system and then tears into leviticus with the system in mind.
Claiming the 'olah was a voluntary offering "not for sin" is entirely false
Please demonstrate from the Biblical text.
as it is intimately linked with "soothing" God's wrath through the smoke...in fact, it is the ONLY offering that the text itself links with wrath both here and in Genesis. There's no investigation of the words of the text, no careful contextual exegesis just theological statements made to force-fit the data into the preferred system.
 
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Fervent

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Suffice it to say I am in agreement with the Reformers' approach to Scripture.

Do you even know what was voluntary about it?
The daily burnt offering by the temple wasn't voluntary, that's exactly one of the system errors. The only major offering that is explicitly voluntary is the peace offering. All others were required at prescribed times and places, with the burnt offering needing to be offered twice daily. So where do you get it was voluntary and what do you claim is voluntary about it?
 
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Clare73

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Do you even know what was voluntary about it?

Please demonstrate from the Biblical text.
The daily burnt offering by the temple wasn't voluntary, that's exactly one of the system errors.
Oh, really now. . .sorry. . .you're out of your league. . .back to the well. . .

"When any of you brings as your offering an animal from either the flock or herd. . .if the offering is a burnt offering. . ."

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Enough!

Q.E.D.
The only major offering that is explicitly voluntary is the peace offering. All others were required at prescribed times and places, with the burnt offering needing to be offered twice daily. So where do you get it was voluntary and what do you claim is voluntary about it?
WRONG!

Major? Where is that in text? That your disqualifier when you're wrong?
 
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hedrick

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Would you say Systematic Theology is helpful to the faith, or harmful to the faith?
It can be helpful. There is more than one definition of systematic theology. A narrow definition says that it derives theology from a few basic principles. But I'd use a broader definition that says it's an attempt to present the major questions that Christians have about the faith. Normally it is based on Scripture, but also informed by historical thought.

The advantage is that it requires us to look not just at individual issues. That tends to lead to looking at individual Bible passages in isolation. Systematic theology requires us to look at Scripture as a whole, and to take account of insights of other Christians.

But there are still varying approaches. Calvin's Institutes are specifically an attempt to look at Biblical themes broadly, to provide a background for doing detailed studies of specific passages. But there are other ways to organize it.
 
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Fervent

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Oh, really now. . .sorry. . .you're out of your league. . .back to the well. . .

"When any of you brings as your offering an animal from either the flock or herd. . .if the offering is a burnt offering. . ."

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Enough!

Q.E.D.WRONG!

Major? Where is that in text? That your disqualifier when you're wrong?
Where is that quote from? In what context is it said? Bring out the entire passage it's found in so we can discuss it. As for the burnt offering it is commanded in both Leviticus 1 and in Exodus 29 to be a daily offering given on a regular schedule, it is not called a free will offering. The frequency which it was offered and the fact that it had to be given before the rest of the offerings could be given and again at the end of the daily offerings is what establishes it as a central offering.
 
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Clare73

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Where is that quote from? In what context is it said? Bring out the entire passage it's found in so we can discuss it. As for the burnt offering it is commanded in both Leviticus 1 and in Exodus 29 to be a daily offering given on a regular schedule, it is not called a free will offering. The frequency which it was offered and the fact that it had to be given before the rest of the offerings could be given and again at the end of the daily offerings is what establishes it as a central offering.
You've got the study, consult it. . .and from Hedrick's post #32:

"There is more than one definition of systematic theology. A narrow definition says that it derives theology from a few basic principles. But I'd use a broader definition that says it's an attempt to present the major questions that Christians have about the faith. Normally it is based on Scripture, but also informed by historical thought.

The advantage is that it requires us to look not just at individual issues. That tends to lead to looking at individual Bible passages in isolation. Systematic theology requires us to look at Scripture as a whole, and to take account of insights of other Christians.

But there are still varying approaches. Calvin's Institutes are specifically an attempt to look at Biblical themes broadly, to provide a background for doing detailed studies of specific passages. But there are other ways to organize it."
 
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Fervent

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You've got the study, consult it.
.
Looking at it again, it's a leap to call it voluntary since there were circumstances under which it is given voluntarily that are covered by the same instructions. Was it one that could be offered voluntarily? Yes and the language reflects that, but the burnt offerings were required offerings for atonement(which 1:4 makes clear and the interval commands are given in Exodus 29) rather than free will offerings as a pure act of worship. The only reason to highlight that they could be given voluntarily is to try to diminish their importance, especially since they have pride of place both within Leviticus and the temple offerings but are the least useful to the system.
 
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Clare73

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Looking at it again, it's a leap to call it voluntary since there were circumstances under which it is given voluntarily that are covered by the same instructions. Was it one that could be offered voluntarily? Yes and the language reflects that, but the burnt offerings were required offerings for atonement(which 1:4 makes clear and the interval commands are given in Exodus 29) rather than free will offerings as a pure act of worship. The only reason to highlight that they could be given voluntarily is to try to diminish their importance, especially since they have pride of place both within Leviticus and the temple offerings but are the least useful to the system.
Your issue is with Reformed Christianity, because it is so clear, where clarity, for what ever reason (and I think I know what it is) is your enemy,

particularly in: THE GLORY OF CHRIST JESUS

Preface:

Perhaps a study of Leviticus would be helpful, so here's a tool for its study, chapter by chapter, up to 16 chapters.

It will be notes of explanation which depend on first reading the chapter,
then consulting the notes given on relevant verses for more in-depth meaning.

Leviticus is extremely rich in meaning, and should not be gobbled down, but digested slowly.
Just skimming such rich material in curiosity is not the way to handle the word of God.

It is for storing up your heart, not just your head.

Introduction to Leviticus:

1. Leviticus can be called the seedbed and plumb line of NT theology,
because in it can be seen so many "patterns of the things to come" (Heb 10:1) in Christ.
But the seeds are buried in the details, so it is the details that will be examined.

2. Problem presented and addressed by Leviticus:
  • to come into the presence of God is to come before the holiness and justice of God
  • sin defiles the purity of God's presence
  • sin is to God, as infection is to an operating room
  • God cannot tolerate sin, it is an affront to his holiness; therefore to come into his presence defiled by sin is to invoke the wrath of divine justice on sin (Ex 19:21-24)
  • Leviticus addresses the problem of how sinful man can come into the presence of a holy God
  • Leviticus reveals there is only one way to be received by God in mercy instead of wrath--the blood of sacrifice, offered by the priest
  • all other ways of approaching God leave you exposed to divine justice and eternal death (Jn 14:6) because of sin
  • Leviticus also reveals there is no sacrifice for deliberate (defiant) sin (type of NT unforgiveable sin--unbelief)
3. Leviticus drives home
  • the holiness of God
  • the nature of sin
  • how an unholy people can approach a holy God; i.e., first, sin must be dealt with.
The patterns which can be seen in the ceremonies in Leviticus teach important
a) spiritual truth
  • nature and character of God
  • nature and work of Christ
  • nature of grace
b) principles - of holiness (set apart--from sin, and to God)

(con't in following link)

Leviticus: Seedbed of NT Theology
 
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Fervent

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Your issue is with Reformed Christianity, because it is so clear, where clarity, for what ever reason (and I think I know what it is) is your enemy,

particularly in: THE GLORY OF CHRIST JESUS

Preface:

Perhaps a study of Leviticus would be helpful, so here's a tool for its study, chapter by chapter, up to 16 chapters.

It will be notes of explanation which depend on first reading the chapter,
then consulting the notes given on relevant verses for more in-depth meaning.

Leviticus is extremely rich in meaning, and should not be gobbled down, but digested slowly.
Just skimming such rich material in curiosity is not the way to handle the word of God.

It is for storing up your heart, not just your head.

Introduction to Leviticus:

1. Leviticus can be called the seedbed and plumb line of NT theology,
because in it can be seen so many "patterns of the things to come" (Heb 10:1) in Christ.
But the seeds are buried in the details, so it is the details that will be examined.

2. Problem presented and addressed by Leviticus:
  • to come into the presence of God is to come before the holiness and justice of God
  • sin defiles the purity of God's presence
  • sin is to God, as infection is to an operating room
  • God cannot tolerate sin, it is an affront to his holiness; therefore to come into his presence defiled by sin is to invoke the wrath of divine justice on sin (Ex 19:21-24)
  • Leviticus addresses the problem of how sinful man can come into the presence of a holy God
  • Leviticus reveals there is only one way to be received by God in mercy instead of wrath--the blood of sacrifice, offered by the priest
  • all other ways of approaching God leave you exposed to divine justice and eternal death (Jn 14:6) because of sin
  • Leviticus also reveals there is no sacrifice for deliberate (defiant) sin (type of NT unforgiveable sin--unbelief)
3. Leviticus drives home
  • the holiness of God
  • the nature of sin
  • how an unholy people can approach a holy God; i.e., first, sin must be dealt with.
The patterns which can be seen in the ceremonies in Leviticus teach important
a) spiritual truth
  • nature and character of God
  • nature and work of Christ
  • nature of grace
b) principles - of holiness (set apart--from sin, and to God)

(con't in following link)

Leviticus: Seedbed of NT Theology
My issue with the reformed take on atonement isn't clarity, it's that it paints God as some kind of pagan deity looking to be placated by the blood of a virgin. The primary problem in Leviticus is not wrath, in fact wrath isn't even really mentioned, but cleanliness which is why the common refrains speak of being defiled, made unclean, etc. But as I said, you front load the "study" with foreign concepts based on your system rather than examining the book on its own terms.
 
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mnorian

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thread has been closed by OP's request.

Hat off.
 
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