Scripturally based book recommendation or Eschatology

Biblewriter said:

Jesus plainly said that He was going "to my Father's house." and what did He say he was going to do THERE? "To prepare a place for you." The place was going to be prepared "in my father's house." THEN, He said, I will come again, and receive you to myself." and why? That where I am," which was to be in "my Father;'s house," "there you may be also." It would be difficult to state it more plainly. And there is not even one scripture which states otherwise.

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Heaven is not stated as the destination for those gathered in John 14:1-3. That idea is an assumption, not supported by any other scripture.
We find the truth of where to; in Matthew 24:30-31 - to the place King Jesus will reign from, namely Jerusalem.

The 'place' being prepared in heaven will come to the earth AFTER the Millennium. Then; those found worthy will live in it. Revelation 21 to 22

keras said:

Heaven is not stated as the destination for those gathered in John 14:1-3. That idea is an assumption, not supported by any other scripture.
We find the truth of where to; in Matthew 24:30-31 - to the place King Jesus will reign from, namely Jerusalem.

The 'place' being prepared in heaven will come to the earth AFTER the Millennium. Then; those found worthy will live in it. Revelation 21 to 22

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You are applying scriptures about the gathering of Israel to the church.

Biblewriter said:

You are applying scriptures about the gathering of Israel to the church.

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Yes; to the Israelites of God, His faithful Christian peoples.

Actually your comment above is wrong. When and where does Israel, I presume you mean the Jewish State of Israel, join the Church?

keras said:

Yes; to the Israelites of God, His faithful Christian peoples.

Actually your comment above is wrong. When and where does Israel, I presume you mean the Jewish State of Israel, join the Church?

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No, when I say Israel I do not mean "the Jewish state of Israel." That is a misnomer, an unscriptural name for the current Jewish state. In Bible prophecy, this state is called Judah, not Israel. In Bible Prophecy, Israel and Judah are not synonyms. The end time scenario in the prophetic scriptures opens with Judah (the Jews) in her land ( as she now is) but there in a state of rebellion and unbelief. (As she now is.)

Isaiah 66 and Ezekiel 20 very clearly show that the return of Israel will take place AFTER Messiah comes, not before. Ezekiel 36:1-10 explicitly say that this will involve "all the house of Israel, all of it." And Ezekiel 47 and 48 very explicitly define the borders of the land in that day, and how it will be divided among the twelve tribes of Israel.

Both Isaiah 4:3-4 and Jeremiah 31:33-34 very explicitly tell us that absolutely all of them will "know the Lord." And no scripture, anywhere, even implies that these will be a part of "the church."

Biblewriter said:

No, when I say Israel I do not mean "the Jewish state of Israel." That is a misnomer, an unscriptural name for the current Jewish state. In Bible prophecy, this state is called Judah, not Israel. In Bible Prophecy, Israel and Judah are not synonyms. The end time scenario in the prophetic scriptures opens with Judah (the Jews) in her land ( as she now is) but there in a state of rebellion and unbelief. (As she now is.)

Isaiah 66 and Ezekiel 20 very clearly show that the return of Israel will take place AFTER Messiah comes, not before. Ezekiel 36:1-10 explicitly say that this will involve "all the house of Israel, all of it." And Ezekiel 47 and 48 very explicitly define the borders of the land in that day, and how it will be divided among the twelve tribes of Israel.

Both Isaiah 4:3-4 and Jeremiah 31:33-34 very explicitly tell us that absolutely all of them will "know the Lord." And no scripture, anywhere, even implies that these will be a part of "the church."

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You are quite right about Judah and Israel being separate. One day they will rejoin, as per Ezekiel 37. But there will be just a remnant of Judah.

The plain scripture which you and many seem to have missed, or avoid, is how Jesus was sent by God to save the lost House of Israel. Matthew 15:24
THAT was His mission and the Apostles He taught and sent out did the job. We Christians are the result and the fact of the Christian Western nations proves it. There is much evidence of the Israelite migration across Europe, then to America and the British Commonwealth. Even the tribes can be identified; Issachar - Finland, Reuben - France, England - Ephraim, etc.
There were a few Israelites; thousands in fact, who did join Judah, even today some still do, to their eternal mistake.

Biblewriter said:

And no scripture, anywhere, even implies that these will be a part of "the church."

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Absolutely wrong; we Christians ARE the Israelites of God. Galatians 6:14-16
We ARE the Overcomers for God, as seen in each of the 7 Church's of Revelation.

keras said:

You are quite right about Judah and Israel being separate. One day they will rejoin, as per Ezekiel 37. But there will be just a remnant of Judah.

The plain scripture which you and many seem to have missed, or avoid, is how Jesus was sent by God to save the lost House of Israel. Matthew 15:24
THAT was His mission and the Apostles He taught and sent out did the job. We Christians are the result and the fact of the Christian Western nations proves it. There is much evidence of the Israelite migration across Europe, then to America and the British Commonwealth. Even the tribes can be identified; Issachar - Finland, Reuben - France, England - Ephraim, etc.
There were a few Israelites; thousands in fact, who did join Judah, even today some still do, to their eternal mistake.

Absolutely wrong; we Christians ARE the Israelites of God. Galatians 6:14-16
We ARE the Overcomers for God, as seen in each of the 7 Church's of Revelation.

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Your identification of the various nations of Europe as the tribes of Israel is historically incorrect, as these nations were already in existence before the ten tribes were deported from their ancient homeland.

And neither Galatians 6:14-15 nor any other scripture even implies, much less says, that Christians are Israelites.

Biblewriter said:

And neither Galatians 6:14-15 nor any other scripture even implies, much less says, that Christians are Israelites.

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You came up one verse short:

Galatians 6:16
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.


And missed these:

Justin Martyr, Dialogues, Chapter CXXIII, 130 AD
"Christians are the True Israel"

Justin Martyr, Dialogues, Chapter CXXXV, 130 AD
"Christ is King of Israel, and Christians are the Israelitic Race.

Justin Martyr, Dialogues, Chapter CXXXV, 130 AD
"As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race."

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 8, Paragraph 1
"This, then, is a clear point, that those who disallow his salvation, and frame the idea of another God besides Him who made the promise to Abraham, are outside the kingdom of God, and are disinherited from [the gift of] incorruption, setting at naught and blaspheming God, who introduces, through Jesus Christ, Abraham to the kingdom of heaven, and his seed, that is, the Church, upon which also is conferred the adoption and the inheritance promised to Abraham."

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 34, Paragraph 1
"Now I have shown a short time ago that the church is the seed of Abraham..."

John Chrysostom on Galatians 6:15-16
Observe the power of the Cross, to what a pitch it hath raised him! not only hath it put to death for him all mundane affairs, but hath set him far above the Old Dispensation. What can be comparable to this power? for the Cross hath persuaded him, who was willing to be slain and to slay others for the sake of circumcision, to leave it on a level with uncircumcision, and to seek for things strange and marvellous and above the heavens. This our rule of life he calls "a new creature," both on account of what is past, and of what is to come; of what is past, because our soul, which had grown old with the oldness of sin, hath been all at once renewed by baptism, as if it had been created again. Wherefore we require a new and heavenly rule of life. And of things to come, because both the heaven and the earth, and all the creation, shall with our bodies be translated into incorruption. Tell me not then, he says, of circumcision, which now availeth nothing; (for how shall it appear, when all things have undergone such a change?) but seek the new things of grace. For they who pursue these things shall enjoy peace and amity, and may properly be called by the name of "Israel." While they who hold contrary sentiments, although they be descended from him and bear his appellation, have yet fallen away from all these things, both the relationship and the name itself. But it is in their power to be true Israelites, who keep this rule, who desist from the old ways, and follow after grace.

Martin Luther on Galatians 6:16
Lectures on Galatians, 1519. "Walk" is the same verb that is used above (5:25). "Walk," that is, go, by this rule. By what rule? It is this rule, that they are new creatures in Christ, that they shine with the true righteousness and holiness which come from faith, and that they do not deceive themselves and others with the hypocritical righteousness and holiness which come from the Law. Upon the latter there will be wrath and tribulation, and upon the former will rest peace and mercy. Paul adds the words "upon the Israel of God." He distinguishes this Israel from the Israel after the flesh, just as in 1 Cor. 10:18 he speaks of those who are the Israel of the flesh, not the Israel of God. Therefore peace is upon Gentiles and Jews, provided that they go by the rule of faith and the Spirit.

Lectures on Galatians, 1535. "Upon the Israel of God." Here Paul attacks the false apostles and the Jews, who boasted about their fathers, their election, the Law, etc. (Rom. 9:4-5). It is as though he were saying: "The Israel of God are not the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel but those who, with Abraham the believer (3:9), believe in the promises of God now disclosed in Christ, whether they are Jews or Gentiles."

John Calvin on Galatians 6:16
Upon the Israel of God. This is an indirect ridicule of the vain boasting of the false apostles, who vaunted of being the descendants of Abraham according to the flesh. There are two classes who bear this name, a pretended Israel, which appears to be so in the sight of men, and the Israel of God. Circumcision was a disguise before men, but regeneration is a truth before God. In a word, he gives the appellation of the Israel of God to those whom he formerly denominated the children of Abraham by faith (Galatians 3:29), and thus includes all believers, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were united into one church.

jgr said:

You came up one verse short:

Galatians 6:16
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.


And missed these:

Justin Martyr, Dialogues, Chapter CXXIII, 130 AD
"Christians are the True Israel"

Justin Martyr, Dialogues, Chapter CXXXV, 130 AD
"Christ is King of Israel, and Christians are the Israelitic Race.

Justin Martyr, Dialogues, Chapter CXXXV, 130 AD
"As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race."

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 8, Paragraph 1
"This, then, is a clear point, that those who disallow his salvation, and frame the idea of another God besides Him who made the promise to Abraham, are outside the kingdom of God, and are disinherited from [the gift of] incorruption, setting at naught and blaspheming God, who introduces, through Jesus Christ, Abraham to the kingdom of heaven, and his seed, that is, the Church, upon which also is conferred the adoption and the inheritance promised to Abraham."

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 34, Paragraph 1
"Now I have shown a short time ago that the church is the seed of Abraham..."

John Chrysostom on Galatians 6:15-16
Observe the power of the Cross, to what a pitch it hath raised him! not only hath it put to death for him all mundane affairs, but hath set him far above the Old Dispensation. What can be comparable to this power? for the Cross hath persuaded him, who was willing to be slain and to slay others for the sake of circumcision, to leave it on a level with uncircumcision, and to seek for things strange and marvellous and above the heavens. This our rule of life he calls "a new creature," both on account of what is past, and of what is to come; of what is past, because our soul, which had grown old with the oldness of sin, hath been all at once renewed by baptism, as if it had been created again. Wherefore we require a new and heavenly rule of life. And of things to come, because both the heaven and the earth, and all the creation, shall with our bodies be translated into incorruption. Tell me not then, he says, of circumcision, which now availeth nothing; (for how shall it appear, when all things have undergone such a change?) but seek the new things of grace. For they who pursue these things shall enjoy peace and amity, and may properly be called by the name of "Israel." While they who hold contrary sentiments, although they be descended from him and bear his appellation, have yet fallen away from all these things, both the relationship and the name itself. But it is in their power to be true Israelites, who keep this rule, who desist from the old ways, and follow after grace.

Martin Luther on Galatians 6:16
Lectures on Galatians, 1519. "Walk" is the same verb that is used above (5:25). "Walk," that is, go, by this rule. By what rule? It is this rule, that they are new creatures in Christ, that they shine with the true righteousness and holiness which come from faith, and that they do not deceive themselves and others with the hypocritical righteousness and holiness which come from the Law. Upon the latter there will be wrath and tribulation, and upon the former will rest peace and mercy. Paul adds the words "upon the Israel of God." He distinguishes this Israel from the Israel after the flesh, just as in 1 Cor. 10:18 he speaks of those who are the Israel of the flesh, not the Israel of God. Therefore peace is upon Gentiles and Jews, provided that they go by the rule of faith and the Spirit.

Lectures on Galatians, 1535. "Upon the Israel of God." Here Paul attacks the false apostles and the Jews, who boasted about their fathers, their election, the Law, etc. (Rom. 9:4-5). It is as though he were saying: "The Israel of God are not the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel but those who, with Abraham the believer (3:9), believe in the promises of God now disclosed in Christ, whether they are Jews or Gentiles."

John Calvin on Galatians 6:16
Upon the Israel of God. This is an indirect ridicule of the vain boasting of the false apostles, who vaunted of being the descendants of Abraham according to the flesh. There are two classes who bear this name, a pretended Israel, which appears to be so in the sight of men, and the Israel of God. Circumcision was a disguise before men, but regeneration is a truth before God. In a word, he gives the appellation of the Israel of God to those whom he formerly denominated the children of Abraham by faith (Galatians 3:29), and thus includes all believers, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were united into one church.

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I am well aware of what the ancients said about this. but that does not make it correct. The verse you quoted does not even imply that Christians are "the Israel of God." in fact, it says the very opposite, clearly distingushing "the Israel of God" from :them that walk according to this rule" by the word "and," which is clearly in the Greek text as the Greek word "kai," thus clearly distinguishing them as two different groups.

Biblewriter said:

I am well aware of what the ancients said about this. but that does not make it correct. The verse you quoted does not even imply that Christians are "the Israel of God." in fact, it says the very opposite, clearly distingushing "the Israel of God" from :them that walk according to this rule" by the word "and," which is clearly in the Greek text as the Greek word "kai," thus clearly distinguishing them as two different groups.

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In the Revised English Bible, the 'and' in Galatians 6:16 is not there.
Putting it in creates a Biblical anomaly.
It is left out because Paul is NOT referring to Jewish Israel there, he says that circumcision is nothing, which means the Jews have no special claim to God's favor.
The context of Galatians 6:14-16 is plainly all about the Christian peoples.

We all know why you must have a Jewish redemption; without it you can't be 'raptured to heaven'.
Too bad that neither is Biblical and neither will happen.

Biblewriter said:

I am well aware of what the ancients said about this. but that does not make it correct. The verse you quoted does not even imply that Christians are "the Israel of God." in fact, it says the very opposite, clearly distingushing "the Israel of God" from :them that walk according to this rule" by the word "and," which is clearly in the Greek text as the Greek word "kai," thus clearly distinguishing them as two different groups.

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Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2532: καί

καί, a conjunction, and; the most frequent by far of all the particles in the N. T. (On its uses see Winers Grammar, § 53, 3ff; Buttmann, 361 (310ff), and cf. Ellicott on Philippians 4:12; on the difference between it and τέ see under the word τέ at the beginning)
I. It serves as a copulative i. e. to connect (Latinet, atque, German und);

1. it connects single words or terms:

c. it joins to partitive words the general notion; so that it is equivalent to and in general, and in a word, in short: ὁ Πέτρος καί οἱ ἀπόστολοι, Acts 5:29; οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς (καί οἱ πρεσβύτεροι Rec.) καί τό συνέδριον ὅλον, Matthew 26:59; καί δικαιώμασι σαρκός, Hebrews 9:10 Rec. Tr brackets WH marginal reading; καί ἐπί τόν Ἰσραήλ τοῦ Θεοῦ, Galatians 6:16, and often in Greek writings;

Thus:

Galatians 6:16

And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and in general, upon the Israel of God.

and

And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and in a word, upon the Israel of God.

and

And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, in short, upon the Israel of God.

That is, upon the whole Church of God.

Which the historical defenders of the true faith declared with one voice.

The Greek word "kai" occurs 9251 times in the Textus Receptus. Of these 9251 times, the KJV translated it "and" 8173 times, that is, 88.3 % of the times it was used. And it translated this Greek word "also" 514 times, that is, 5.6% of the times it was used. So between these two senses, both of which clearly designate the two items referred to as different things, the KJV rendered it so 93.9 percent of all the places it was used.

Alternately, The KJV translated it "even" 108 times, "both" 43 times, and "likewise" 13 times, for a total of 164 times, that is, 1.8% of the times it was used in one the various senses which would imply that the two items referred to were either similar or the same.

So the KJV translators, who clearly understood the Greek language, interpreted this word as differentiating between the items referred to 54 times as often as they interpreted them as equating the two items referred to.

Now which of these possible meanings was intended by the Holy Spirit can only be determined from the context. And the ONLY thing about the context of Galatians 6:16 that even implies that here, the word was intended to mean they are the same, is the doctrine being advocated by those who desire to so interpret this word. That is, there is absolutely nothing in the text itself that even implies that idea. So, in the absence of anything in the text that would imply that this word was intended in its unusual sense, the obvious conclusion is that it must have been intended in its normal sense.

I use the KJV in my analysis because that is the version which is analyzed in the Strong;s Greek Dictionary.

keras said:

In the Revised English Bible, the 'and' in Galatians 6:16 is not there.
Putting it in creates a Biblical anomaly.
It is left out because Paul is NOT referring to Jewish Israel there, he says that circumcision is nothing, which means the Jews have no special claim to God's favor.
The context of Galatians 6:14-16 is plainly all about the Christian peoples.

We all know why you must have a Jewish redemption; without it you can't be 'raptured to heaven'.
Too bad that neither is Biblical and neither will happen.

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No, we teach the the "Jewish redemption," as you call it, because it is plainly taught in MANY explicitly stated scriptures.

Biblewriter said:

No, we teach the the "Jewish redemption," as you call it, because it is plainly taught in MANY explicitly stated scriptures.

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It is hard to credit that someone who calls themselves 'Biblewriter', is unable to see the more than 20 prophesies that tell of the virtual demise of Judah and the wipeout of the Jewish State of Israel in the end times.
I have posted these truths before, for now just the example of Isaiah 22:1-14, will suffice.

Also note how the Jews cursed themselves; Matthew 27:25 This is a generational curse that still remains.

Biblewriter said:

The Greek word "kai" occurs 9251 times in the Textus Receptus. Of these 9251 times, the KJV translated it "and" 8173 times, that is, 88.3 % of the times it was used. And it translated this Greek word "also" 514 times, that is, 5.6% of the times it was used. So between these two senses, both of which clearly designate the two items referred to as different things, the KJV rendered it so 93.9 percent of all the places it was used.

Alternately, The KJV translated it "even" 108 times, "both" 43 times, and "likewise" 13 times, for a total of 164 times, that is, 1.8% of the times it was used in one the various senses which would imply that the two items referred to were either similar or the same.

So the KJV translators, who clearly understood the Greek language, interpreted this word as differentiating between the items referred to 54 times as often as they interpreted them as equating the two items referred to.

Now which of these possible meanings was intended by the Holy Spirit can only be determined from the context. And the ONLY thing about the context of Galatians 6:16 that even implies that here, the word was intended to mean they are the same, is the doctrine being advocated by those who desire to so interpret this word. That is, there is absolutely nothing in the text itself that even implies that idea. So, in the absence of anything in the text that would imply that this word was intended in its unusual sense, the obvious conclusion is that it must have been intended in its normal sense.

I use the KJV in my analysis because that is the version which is analyzed in the Strong;s Greek Dictionary.

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Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and John Chrysostom pre-dated the KJV by over a millennium.

They knew their Scripture, and they knew their Greek, and they knew their context, more than a thousand years before the KJV.

They and every other historical defender of the true faith for over 1700 continuous years declared with one united voice that the Israel of God is the Church of God.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon confirms their unanimous Greek understanding of Galatians 6:16.

Thayer further confirms that "Israel" in Galatians 6:16 means "Christians":
"ὁ Ἰσραήλ τοῦ Θεοῦ (genitive of possession), i. e. Christians, Galatians 6:16;"

And therefore that the Israel of God is indeed the Church of God.

jgr said:

Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and John Chrysostom pre-dated the KJV by over a millennium.

They knew their Scripture, and they knew their Greek, and they knew their context, more than a thousand years before the KJV.

They and every other historical defender of the true faith for over 1700 continuous years declared with one united voice that the Israel of God is the Church of God.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon confirms their unanimous Greek understanding of Galatians 6:16.

Thayer further confirms that "Israel" in Galatians 6:16 means "Christians":
"ὁ Ἰσραήλ τοῦ Θεοῦ (genitive of possession), i. e. Christians, Galatians 6:16;"

And therefore that the Israel of God is indeed the Church of God.

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The Textus Receptus reads "και επι τον ισραηλ του θεου," not "ὁ Ἰσραήλ τοῦ Θεοῦ." And the genitive possession refers to belonging to God, which would apply in either sense. That is, is has nothing to do with the meaning of the word "και," which is the central point in this discussion.

Again, the ONLY thing that even suggests the concept that in this sentence, "και" is used in its unusual sense, is the doctrine of those who want to believe that the church is Israel.

But all pf those who say this, neglect the fact that many of the promises made to the ancient nation of Israel have not been fulfilled, yet they are completely different from the promises made to the church.

keras said:

It is hard to credit that someone who calls themselves 'Biblewriter', is unable to see the more than 20 prophesies that tell of the virtual demise of Judah and the wipeout of the Jewish State of Israel in the end times.
I have posted these truths before, for now just the example of Isaiah 22:1-14, will suffice.

Also note how the Jews cursed themselves; Matthew 27:25 This is a generational curse that still remains.

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You are willfully ignoring the fact that these pronouncements of impending destruction are accompanied by a promise thatthe destruction will not be complete, for instance:

"For thus says the LORD: 'The whole land shall be desolate; Yet I will not make a full end.' " (Jeremiah 4:27) And " 'For I am with you,' says the LORD, 'to save you; Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you, Yet I will not make a complete end of you. But I will correct you in justice, And will not let you go altogether unpunished.' " (Jeremiah 30:11) And " 'For I am with you,' says the LORD, 'to save you; Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you, Yet I will not make a complete end of you. But I will correct you in justice, And will not let you go altogether unpunished' " (Jeremiah 46:28) And " 'Do not fear, O Jacob My servant,' says the LORD, 'For I am with you; For I will make a complete end of all the nations To which I have driven you, But I will not make a complete end of you. I will rightly correct you, For I will not leave you wholly unpunished.' " (Jeremiah 46:28)

And in addition to being explicitly promised that they will not be completely destroyed, they were also repeatedly promised that they would eventually be restored. A typical example of this is the following passage:

1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 "Thus speaks the LORD God of Israel, saying: 'Write in a book for yourself all the words that I have spoken to you.
3 For behold, the days are coming,' says the LORD, 'that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,' says the LORD. 'And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.' "
4 Now these are the words that the LORD spoke concerning Israel and Judah.
5 "For thus says the LORD: 'We have heard a voice of trembling, Of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask now, and see, Whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins Like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it.
8 'For it shall come to pass in that day,' Says the LORD of hosts, 'That I will break his yoke from your neck, And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, And David their king, Whom I will raise up for them.
10 'Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,' says the LORD, 'Nor be dismayed, O Israel; For behold, I will save you from afar, And your seed from the land of their captivity. Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet, And no one shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with you,' says the LORD, 'to save you; Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you, Yet I will not make a complete end of you. But I will correct you in justice, And will not let you go altogether unpunished.' (Jeremiah 30:1-11)

And

1 "And you, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel, and say, 'O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD!
2 Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because the enemy has said of you, 'Aha! The ancient heights have become our possession,' " '
3 therefore prophesy, and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because they made you desolate and swallowed you up on every side, so that you became the possession of the rest of the nations, and you are taken up by the lips of talkers and slandered by the people"--
4 therefore, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD! Thus says the Lord GOD to the mountains, the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around--
5 therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Surely I have spoken in My burning jealousy against the rest of the nations and against all Edom, who gave My land to themselves as a possession, with whole-hearted joy and spiteful minds, in order to plunder its open country." '
6 Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel, and say to the mountains, the hills, the rivers, and the valleys, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I have spoken in My jealousy and My fury, because you have borne the shame of the nations."
7 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "I have raised My hand in an oath that surely the nations that are around you shall bear their own shame.
8 "But you, O mountains of Israel, you shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to My people Israel, for they are about to come.
9 For indeed I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you shall be tilled and sown.
10 I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt.
11 I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bear young; I will make you inhabited as in former times, and do better for you than at your beginnings. Then you shall know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 36:1-11)

And

13 Thus says the Lord GOD: "These are the borders by which you shall divide the land as an inheritance among the twelve tribes of Israel. Joseph shall have two portions.
14 You shall inherit it equally with one another; for I raised My hand in an oath to give it to your fathers, and this land shall fall to you as your inheritance.
15 This shall be the border of the land on the north: from the Great Sea, by the road to Hethlon, as one goes to Zedad,
16 Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim (which is between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath), to Hazar Hatticon (which is on the border of Hauran).
17 Thus the boundary shall be from the Sea to Hazar Enan, the border of Damascus; and as for the north, northward, it is the border of Hamath. This is the north side.
18 On the east side you shall mark out the border from between Hauran and Damascus, and between Gilead and the land of Israel, along the Jordan, and along the eastern side of the sea. This is the east side.
19 The south side, toward the South, shall be from Tamar to the waters of Meribah by Kadesh, along the brook to the Great Sea. This is the south side, toward the South.
20 The west side shall be the Great Sea, from the southern boundary until one comes to a point opposite Hamath. This is the west side.
21 "Thus you shall divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. (Ezekiel 47:13-21)

These scriptures are so clearly stated, in explicit words, that it is nothing short of unbelief to deny them.

Biblewriter said:

The Textus Receptus reads "και επι τον ισραηλ του θεου," not "ὁ Ἰσραήλ τοῦ Θεοῦ." And the genitive possession refers to belonging to God, which would apply in either sense.

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Believing Israel belongs to the Church of God. The Church of God belongs to God.

Biblewriter said:

Again, the ONLY thing that even suggests the concept that in this sentence, "και" is used in its unusual sense, is the doctrine of those who want to believe that the church is Israel.

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I have no doubt that the collective scholarship of over 1700 unanimous historical years recognizing the Israel of God as the Church of God, far exceeds that of less than 200 modern years of disagreement by those who want to believe that the Church is not Israel.

The advent of the KJV did not change this reality for 200 years; every Reformation scholar during the Reformation era continued to recognize the Israel of God as the Church of God.

Biblewriter said:

But all pf those who say this, neglect the fact that many of the promises made to the ancient nation of Israel have not been fulfilled, yet they are completely different from the promises made to the church.

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Galatians 6 is addressed to the Galatian Church, is applicable in its entirety to the Church, and is entirely devoid of any mention of promises to the ancient nation of Israel.

Biblewriter said:

You are willfully ignoring the fact that these pronouncements of impending destruction are accompanied by a promise thatthe destruction will not be complete, for instance:

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I have always noted that a remnant will be saved.
That remnant will return with all the other Christian Israelites of God. As Jeremiah 50:4-5 puts it so well.

jgr said:

Believing Israel belongs to the Church of God. The Church of God belongs to God.



I have no doubt that the collective scholarship of over 1700 unanimous historical years recognizing the Israel of God as the Church of God, far exceeds that of less than 200 modern years of disagreement by those who want to believe that the Church is not Israel.

The advent of the KJV did not change this reality for 200 years; every Reformation scholar during the Reformation era continued to recognize the Israel of God as the Church of God.



Galatians 6 is addressed to the Galatian Church, is applicable in its entirety to the Church, and is entirely devoid of any mention of promises to the ancient nation of Israel.

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What ALL men say has zero bearing on he truth of God. And the scriptures could not me more plain in explicitly saying, again and again, that God will bring absolutely all of the twelve tribes of Israel back to their ancient homeland, and will bless them there.

This was clearly taught by the ancient writers, and was again taught when the KJV first made Bibles widely available at prices ordinary men could afford. This was insisted upon at length in the most widely circulated set of Bible commentaries of the 1700s, which was published during the years of about 1712 to 1715. So forget your nonsense about the end time earthly blessing of the physical nation of Israel having never been taught before 1830.

keras said:

I have always noted that a remnant will be saved.
That remnant will return with all the other Christian Israelites of God. As Jeremiah 50:4-5 puts it so well.

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No scripture even hints at the idea that these people will return "with other Christian Israelites of God." Actually the scriptures say the very opposite, that, as they return, God will purge the rebels from their ranks, saying of those rebels that "I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel." (Ezekiel 20:38)

And no scripture even hints at the idea that the church will ever be gathered to the land of Israel.