Is it Time to Talk About Violent Christian Extremism?

RDKirk · Feb 9, 2021

SoldierOfTheKing said:
Western Civilization has always had a distinction between religious and secular authority. It can be found implicitly in New Testament verses such as "render unto Caesar", but we saw it in action in the fourth century with relationship between the church and Roman imperial throne, a pre-Christian institution. Throughout the Middle Ages the main political controversy was about the balance of power between church and secular leadership, particularly the Holy Roman Emperor.

Prior to Christianity, there was not a separation of religion and government in imperial Rome. The emperor was also pontifex maximus (highest priest) of all legal religions in the empire. The concept seems to have been unique to Christianity, although we could argue that it was practiced by the Jews during their Captivity.

It posed an interesting situation for Constantine. When Constantine legalized Christianity, he did not repudiate the prior pagan religions. He retained the pagan religions and retained his role as pontifex maximus of those religions. I suspect that's why he held off baptism until he was on his deathbed.

When you see images or statues of the emperor with his toga pulled over his head, that's when he's operating as pontifex maximus.

Andrewn · Feb 10, 2021

RDKirk said:
Prior to Christianity, there was not a separation of religion and government in imperial Rome. The emperor was also pontifex maximus (highest priest) of all legal religions in the empire. The concept seems to have been unique to Christianity, although we could argue that it was practiced by the Jews during their Captivity.

It posed an interesting situation for Constantine. When Constantine legalized Christianity, he did not repudiate the prior pagan religions. He retained the pagan religions and retained his role as pontifex maximus of those religions. I suspect that's why he held off baptism until he was on his deathbed.

For centuries, monarchs in Europe ruled by the idea of divine right. On the other side was the Catholic doctrine that the Pope, as the Vicar of Christ on earth, should have the ultimate authority over the Church, and indirectly over the state.

In the 1530s, Henry VIII set himself as ruler of the Church of England. The monarchs of Great Britain have retained ecclesiastical authority in the Church of England since Henry VIII, having the current title, Supreme Governor of the Church of England.

In Germany, the situation was similar as the Protestant church was a vassal of the state. The Magisterial Reformation is a phrase that "draws attention to the manner in which the Lutheran and Calvinist reformers related to secular authorities, such as princes, magistrates, or city councils", i.e. "the magistracy". The Magisterial Reformation argued for the interdependence of the church and secular authorities, i.e. "The magistrate had a right to authority within the church, just as the church could rely on the authority of the magistrate to enforce discipline, suppress heresy, or maintain order."

The Radical Reformation rejected any secular authority over the Church. Those of the Radical Reformation (the Anabaptists) took Luther's ideas in new directions, most notably in the writings of Michael Sattler (1490–1527), who agreed with Luther that there were two kingdoms, but differed in arguing that these two kingdoms should be separate, and hence baptized believers should not vote, serve in public office or participate in any other way with the "kingdom of the world".

The concept of separating church and state is often credited to the writings of English philosopher John Locke (1632–1704).[14] According to his principle of the social contract, Locke argued that the government lacked authority in the realm of individual conscience, as this was something rational people could not cede to the government for it or others to control. For Locke, this created a natural right in the liberty of conscience, which he argued must therefore remain protected from any government authority. These views on religious tolerance and the importance of individual conscience, along with his social contract, became particularly influential in the American colonies and the drafting of the United States Constitution.[15]

In a letter that Thomas Jefferson's wrote to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802 referencing the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, he said:

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."

Separation of church and state - Wikipedia

Conclusion: Separation of church and state is to be credit to the American Constitution and the idea was based originally on the Radical / Anabaptist Reformation.

RDKirk · Feb 10, 2021

Andrewn said:
In a letter that Thomas Jefferson's wrote to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802 referencing the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, he said:

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."

Separation of church and state - Wikipedia

Conclusion: Separation of church and state is to be credit to the American Constitution and the idea was based originally on the Radical / Anabaptist Reformation.

The more proximate effect on American politics was through Roger Williams (1603-1683). Roger Williams was a radical Puritan pastor who established the first Baptist congregation in the US. He was also one of the first American Abolitionists and was a great proponent of the rights of native Americans.

And he was the founder of Rhode Island, a state based on the principle of complete separation of Church and state. By Williams' own writiings, "...liberty for the heathen (atheist) as well as the Musselman (Muslim)..."

Williams described in his treatise "The Bloudy Tenent of Persecution for Cause of Conscience" (published in 1644, when Locke was still a lad) similar concepts of John Locke. Williams outlined his own concepts from European history of why co-mingling Church and State led to the adulteration of the Church based on his staunch belief in Calvinism. Essentially, his point was that when the State creates a social advantage (or worse, a social necessity) to being seen in the congregation, then people who are not Elect will dominate the congregation.

But John Locke had not set up a colony in the Americas to demonstrate the principle as Williams did, which is why I'd argue that Williams had a more proximate effect on the American political foundation. Also, it was Williams who in that treatise coined the phrase, "....hedge of separation between the garden of the Church and the wilderness of the State" that Jefferson cribbed in his letter to the Danbury Baptists. Jefferson used the words of the Baptists own congregational ancestor to allay their fears.

At the ratification of the US Constitution, the state of Rhode Island was instrumental in codifying the separation of Church and State into US law. Rhode Island refused to ratify the US Constitution until after the First Amendment (guaranteeing that the new federal government would not institute a national religion) was written and ratified.

bekkilyn · Feb 10, 2021

mmksparbud said:
It is sooo very confusing for non-Christians to know what a Christian is! This is not what Christ would do!! These "Christians" are idolizing one man who has absolutely no morals and who openly has said he does not the forgiveness of Jesus, for he does no wrong---and all his followers agree!! What ever happened to
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Can "Christianity" as a religion in general be salvaged in any way, or are we going to somehow need to separate being a Christ-follower from the religion? I don't know, but fewer and fewer non-Christians associate Christianity with Christ and it's only getting worse.

mmksparbud · Feb 10, 2021

bekkilyn said:
Can "Christianity" as a religion in general be salvaged in any way, or are we going to somehow need to separate being a Christ-follower from the religion? I don't know, but fewer and fewer non-Christians associate Christianity with Christ and it's only getting worse.

Luk_18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

We must remain faithful. Whatever the unGodly do, is on them---we need not join their unfaithfulness. It is trying times.

Jipsah · Feb 11, 2021

Andrewn said:
"Now, after the dangerous QAnon conspiracy theory helped to motivate the insurrection at the U.S. Capitol

Possibly the smallest and least successful "insurrection" in human history. In fact it pales in comparison to any number of Antifa and BLM riots that ocurred in the US in 2020. Pure political arglebargle.

evangelical pastors throughout the country ache over the spread of the conspiracy theory among their flocks

What conspiracy is that? The Great Reset? That's hardly a CT. What CT are you on about?

it’s worth asking whether the time has come for a new wave of outreach to religious communities, this time aimed at evangelical Christians."

"Outreach" meaning?

I've often thought of White Supremacists as equivalent to Islamic Supremacists.

You're going to have to define "white supremacism" as you're using it here. I've been described as a white supremacist myself, even though I'm only half white and would probably not be at all welcome at the average Klan rally. The term seems to be used generally to refer to anyone who wasn't a slavish Biden supporter, which obviously means rough half the people in the US. If that's true, I need to set up in the bedsheet-and-pointed-hat business before the market is flooded.

The fact is that it's simply a means of depersonalizing political opposition. We're not simply Trump supporters, we're white supremacists, nazis, and deplorables. We're under or un educated, we're QAnon (whatever that is), we're racist/sexist Extreme Right Wingers, rednecks (OK, I'll plead guilty to that, my white forebears were poor Southern farmers who were graciously awarded that title by their vastly superior betters), we're homo/trans/xeno and maybe even hydro phobes, and we're capable of unimaginable barbarism. And it appears to be gaining traction. The conversation is now turing to whether our kind should be allowed to allowed to express our pernicious ideas publicly, and whether media outlets can be permitted to openly publish political or philosophical ideas that run counter to the political orthodoxy du jour.

So in the interest of "plain speaking and clear understanding", be good enough to define who your target is before you swing that club, OK?

The question is why are White Supremacists coming out of the closet now? Are Evangelical Christians involved in Supremacist violence? And, whether true or not, do non-Christians think so? Are they coming to get us, as some believe?

Again, you're gonna have to define who you're talking about. Just last week, I have a white barista who I work with describe my biracial self as a "xenophobe". This from a guy who calls on me to wait on Latino customers because I enough Spanish to make myself understood, and Asians because, he says, "they're Chinese, so you can understand them" (my mom's Korean). So how does Mr. Multiculti get off calling me a xenopohobe? Well because I voted for Trump, duh!

See how this works? Do you really want to be a part of that? I'll tell you the Lord's truth, mate. I'm a lot more frightened by you than I am by any "white supremacists" I'm likely to encounter here in Red State Tennessee. Your lot would call down the power of the State to silence, and whatever else seems good to you, neandethals like me who insist on having the Wrong Opinions.

Andrewn · Feb 12, 2021

Jipsah said:
Possibly the smallest and least successful "insurrection" in human history. In fact it pales in comparison to any number of Antifa and BLM riots that ocurred in the US in 2020. Pure political arglebargle.

BLM demonstrators never attacked the US Capitol in an effort to kill the Vice President, the Speaker of the House, and other senators and representatives and to change election results by force. False comparison.

Jipsah said:
I've been described as a white supremacist myself, even though I'm only half white and would probably not be at all welcome at the average Klan rally.

The chairman of Proud Boys identifies as Afro-Cuban. Statistics of reported lynching in the United States indicate that, between 1882 and 1951, 4,730 persons were lynched, of whom 1,293 were white and 3,437 were black. Notice that more than 27% were white. The key word in "White Supremacy" is Supremacy, it is certain ideas and attitudes.

Jipsah said:
We're not simply Trump supporters, we're white supremacists, nazis, and deplorables. We're under or un educated, we're QAnon (whatever that is), we're racist/sexist Extreme Right Wingers, rednecks (OK, I'll plead guilty to that, my white forebears were poor Southern farmers who were graciously awarded that title by their vastly superior betters), we're homo/trans/xeno and maybe even hydro phobes, and we're capable of unimaginable barbarism. And it appears to be gaining traction.

Is it gaining traction?

FBI arrests Kentucky militia members connected with Boogaloo Bois

Jipsah said:
I'll tell you the Lord's truth, mate. I'm a lot more frightened by you than I am by any "white supremacists" I'm likely to encounter here in Red State Tennessee. Your lot would call down the power of the State to silence, and whatever else seems good to you, neandethals like me who insist on having the Wrong Opinions.

At this point, it may be that both sides are afraid of each other. Democracy is supposed to bring people together, all agreeing to respect the results of fair elections. Every one in the DOJ and all judges in courts, including many Republicans, agreed that the previous election was fair and honest. For someone, be it Trump or his supporters to claim otherwise without evidence is to break the social contract and incite previously unimaginable violence.

nhisname · Feb 14, 2021

Why talk about white supremacy or Christian extremism...when antifa and blm groups have done nothing but reek havoc the last year and a half..
When have white supremacy or Christian groups have done either? Judge a man by his fruit....The protesters that stormed
the Capitol were not Trump supporters but antifa and blm..they filmed themselves from other riots the idiots...one thing this last impeachment farce did bring out were the true videos of actual Trump speeches that the news media had edited out.

Job 33:6 · Feb 14, 2021

nhisname said:
Why talk about white supremacy or Christian extremism...when antifa and blm groups have done nothing but reek havoc the last year and a half..
When have white supremacy or Christian groups have done either? Judge a man by his fruit....The protesters that stormed
the Capitol were not Trump supporters but antifa and blm..they filmed themselves from other riots the idiots...one thing this last impeachment farce did bring out were the true videos of actual Trump speeches that the news media had edited out.

Those arrested after storming the capitol were recorded on video wearing trump hats, flying trump flags, and chanting to "stop the steal".

How can you possibly say that they weren't trump supporters?

nhisname · Feb 14, 2021

KomatiiteBIF said:
Those arrested after storming the capitol were recorded on video wearing trump hats, flying trump flags, and chanting to "stop the steal".

How can you possibly say that they weren't trump supporters?

It's said in the God Word we are wheat among the tares.....Satan comes in like a sheep in wolves clothing only in this case wolves in Trump clothing
hats and flags....these same antifa and blm idiots have been filming themselves at other riots with antfa and blm that's how they've been identified.

nhisname · Feb 14, 2021

Andrewn said:
BLM demonstrators never attacked the US Capitol in an effort to kill the Vice President, the Speaker of the House, and other senators and representatives and to change election results by force. False comparison.

The chairman of Proud Boys identifies as Afro-Cuban. Statistics of reported lynching in the United States indicate that, between 1882 and 1951, 4,730 persons were lynched, of whom 1,293 were white and 3,437 were black. Notice that more than 27% were white. The key word in "White Supremacy" is Supremacy, it is certain ideas and attitudes.

Is it gaining traction?

FBI arrests Kentucky militia members connected with Boogaloo Bois

At this point, it may be that both sides are afraid of each other. Democracy is supposed to bring people together, all agreeing to respect the results of fair elections. Every one in the DOJ and all judges in courts, including many Republicans, agreed that the previous election was fair and honest. For someone, be it Trump or his supporters to claim otherwise without evidence is to break the social contract and incite previously unimaginable violence.

nhisname · Feb 15, 2021

Matt5 said:
If you believe in equality then you should tend to believe that Christianity is no better or worse than Islam. In reality, you would believe that Islam is better because you know the West cheated to get ahead. Christianity would get much of that blame.

In Islam the supremacists are good Muslims. In the following video one can see that violence is how Islam spread across the Middle East and beyond. It shows a map of Muslim battles at 20 year increments and then the Crusades battles.

Bill Warner, PhD: Jihad vs Crusades - YouTube

I guess the video really just shows how Christians provoked Muslims from the beginning. Christians are naturally extremists. Muslims are the good guys who are just trying to protect themselves.

Islam in itself is a scare tactic to control it's people.
It doesn't speak of love or love thy neighbor but do as I say or face stoning. I've read the Koran in part enough to know it's the most messed up sporadic thing I've ever read, nothing is in order. Speak with some of the Islam women and young girls and ask how they are treated...

Job 33:6 · Feb 15, 2021

nhisname said:
It's said in the God Word we are wheat among the tares.....Satan comes in like a sheep in wolves clothing only in this case wolves in Trump clothing
hats and flags....these same antifa and blm idiots have been filming themselves at other riots with antfa and blm that's how they've been identified.

They're all clearly trump supporters.

Trump hats, trump flags, trump chants etc.
They've even testified in court that they're trump supporters.

bekkilyn · Feb 22, 2021

It's really difficult to de-program a Trump cultist with facts and reason.

iluvatar5150 · Feb 22, 2021

Magnanimity said:
And let's acknowledge the real-world plights that occur in people's lives that make them susceptible to being radicalized, to include financial troubles and the desperation entailed by them. I'm sure that Maher is far too leftist for many here. But, when he says of Ashli Babbett, that "all she knew is that she lives in a state that seems to care more about her toxic whiteness than her toxic brokeness. And that the state that's run entirely by Democrats? Yeah, they didn't stop anyone from charging her 169% interest on a loan either." Spot on! Get em, Maher. Get all of them, Right or Left.

I don't know the details of her loan, but she doesn't sound like the most stable of people:

Woman Killed in Capitol Embraced Trump and QAnon

Ms. Babbitt’s politics were emphatically pro-Trump. On the door of the pool-supply company, a poster declares it to be a “mask free autonomous zone, better known as America,” where “we shake hands like men, fist bump like homies.”

Maher can criticize lax oversight of loan companies all he wants, but complaining about mask mandates is entirely inconsistent with that position. Either you protect people from others or you don't.

KomatiiteBIF said:
I think that putting the loonies back in their bin starts with producing a viable alternative.

Republicans need a champion that can revive pride in the party without resorting to crazy conspiracies.

I agree, but they've been cultivating the crazy wing for decades because it's a useful voting bloc. Now it's gotten out of hand and their only positions are either crazy or nakedly corporatist. They don't have much left in the middle for reasonable people.

Andrewn said:
Did you watch the video? Bill Warner actually says the exact opposite of what you claim!! Here is how he explains the difference between Christian Crusades and Islamic Jihad:

"Yes, there were Crusades. But notice they ended centuries ago and Jihad is being practiced today. Jihad has been with us for 1400 years.

There is no comparison between Jihad and the Crusades. Certainly not a moral comparison. When you're looking at the crusades remember all wars in one sense were defensive wars. Why? It was Islam that came out of Arabia and conquered the Christian Middle East. The Crusaders were trying to free their Christian brothers and sisters from Jihad. So, there is no comparison at all.

lol wut?

A.ModerateOne said:
Maybe I need my head examined. I've stopped looking at news or listening to commentators or politicians trying to keep my blood pressure under control. But, as an old fashioned Particular Baptist (Calvinist), and a son of the Confederacy, I shall make a few points on why I not only voted for Donald Trump in 2016 and gave monetary support, but more eagerly voted for him in 2020 and gave even more $$.

In tuning in to watch Trump announce his run in 2015, I did so pretty much as a lark, for fun. But, in context, with me was my closest and dearest friend who is like a son to me is an immigrant from China who struggled for 12 years becoming an American citizen because he loved this Republic and wanted to experience the freedom in this great land of opportunity. So, the first thing I noticed was his intention stop the illegal invasion of our country across our southern border, and I had watched my friend jump through their many hoops to become a citizen legally, so I want illegal entry and continued residency of illegals stopped. I had other, earlier bad experiences with the illegals also.

I then saw how the American news media immediately began to tell lies and half-truths about things Trump said and I sat and watched his speeches and rallies so I know what he said and recognized the lies of the media. As a justified, born from above child of God; I certainly never viewed Trump as a regenerated Christian, but Cyrus who God called his anointed was used of God in the OT, so to me if what Trump wished to do was good for Christian believers, I supported that. For those of us who know we were founded and guaranteed by the Constitution as a "Republic" NOT a mob rule democracy, he was good for us as well. He was our man. The alternative, a female who endorses the killing of a baby at nine months was certainly NO option for a Christian and in 2020, the bumbling, senile candidate was no option either.

About the Charlottesville incident, if I had still been in Virginia I'd have been in Charlottesville to protest removing statues to our history and to the south. I am a son of the Confederacy because I had two ancestors fight for the south in the War Between the States. I boil with disgust when I hear the SBC speak of the "sin of slavery" and disown their very founding fathers. God Almighty alone defines sin by his law and nowhere from cover to cover in the Bible is slavery ever called sin; it was regulated. The religious idea of slavery as sin is another case of religious humanism, and it is well described by a Lutheran, who is not a southerner!

Slavery, Humanism, & the Bible

I will add here, I refuse to sing that humanistic piece of garbage "Battle Hymn of the Republic" and if you think it is biblical read about it:

Is 'The Battle Hymn of the Republic' Biblical? | The Berean Test

I happen to be what may be called an ethnocentrist, because I believe the culture developed in America by the Puritan Work Ethic and reliance on biblical principles to have produced the finest culture the world has ever seen, and it happened to be white since it was largely of Anglo-Saxon and north European ethnicity. I write pen pals all around the world and it is amazing what ignorance they have of what is happening here in the USA, but more amazing is the number of people who actually believe the news media who live here! Many I write live in African countries, and it is clear what happened once the Europeans left it to the Africans. My pen pals admit their leaders are corrupt to the core and in history their tribes raided each other and made slaves of them. Looking about the world, it does not take long to realize that the form of government our founders gave us made us exceptional, it is undeniable; but the corruption in our country is fast destroying that exceptionalism. We are certainly under the judgment of God almighty! Isaiah 3:9-12 about Israel... just pray to be among the righteous or innocent in v10. Yes, that was ancient Israel, but history does repeat itself and it is the people of God, who are Israel today, have been a salt, a sanctifying influence in the USA, and if the salt loses its savor....

The media lies about who got the tax breaks raises my BP also. I'm on a low level Fixed Income in retirement but my Federal Income taxes dropped $500 and my friend who is an IT worker had his taxes drop $2000. I had my health insurance coverage jerked around and attempts to make me change my doctor 3 times during Obama, my health coverage has been stable under Trump even with serious health issues. Gas here was $2.18 before Biden took office, it is now $2.49 and that will not just increase our private car cost, but add to everything we buy. Oh, if I get the $1400 to go with the $600 previously received, I will add another American Gold Eagle to my investments to bring metals up to 10% of my portfolio. The USA can't continue spending what it does not have... it has to break sometime.

I'll close my response by admitting, Trump is not my type of friend I'm comfortable to be around and I did not agree with everything he did, but, I consider what he got done was better for the country than what any have done since I first began voting in 1964. I'll add, I'm not a Qanon nut, I definitely did not identify with those right-wing evangelicals and frauds hovering around him either. This is my total two cents on the thread.

oh wow, we got a live one.

Wolseley · Feb 22, 2021

bekkilyn said:
It's really difficult to de-program a Trump cultist with facts and reason.

One might say the same thing about a Never-Trumper.

Is it Time to Talk About Violent Christian Extremism?

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