Why Am I Eating a Pork Chop?

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pescador

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Yes, I forgot about goats, thanks for bringing that up.

I too have heard that goats will eat all kinds of things.

As one who had goats for many years I can assure you that they will not eat all kinds of things. In fact, they're quite selective. The myth might have started because goats "think with their mouths"; they will pick up and "taste" anything just to see what the object is like, much as we use our hands to inspect things.
 
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Ceallaigh

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For me, denomination is beside the point. It's whether a doctrine or belief is based in scripture or not. What does scripture say? In this very thread, you'll find a lot of argument, but little scriptural quotation to back it up. This is third-party belief. It's how false doctrine becomes so-called truth.

I've seen quite a lot of scripture being quoted in this thread. And both "sides" have used the same scriptures to try proving their view and disproving each other. Just because every comment doesn't have scriptures attached to it, that doesn't mean what's being said isn't coming from a knowledge of the Bible. And I've seen people just toss in verses that don't even really have anything to do with the topic, because they probably just acquired them through a word search.

I don't engage in endless debate. I look for opportunities to witness to others and I post where I feel I can make a difference. Arguing endlessly in a thread is pointless unless there's new light to give on scripture. Our job is to plant seeds and let them fall on the ground they find, not drill them into rock.

I've gotten the impression that there are some SDA here who seem to be here mainly to promote Seventh Day Adventism. I've seen them start debates about the sabbath day in threads that aren't about the sabbath.

There are some great divides between SDA and Roman Catholic denominations, but at the end of the day we're all Christians and there is only one truth. If a doctrinal subject comes up, I'll point out scripture. That's not me attacking your denomination (or any other), that's God's word speaking truth.

At any rate, back to the thread subject.

There's pretty much a great divide between most of Protestantism and Roman Catholicism. After all the start of Protestantism was all about being in major disagreement with Roman Catholicism.
 
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BobRyan

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It clearly states in Deuteronomy 14:8 that we’re not to eat pork. In fact, Deuteronomy and Leviticus clearly state a lot of things that we don’t adhere to.

13:6 through18: We’re instructed to kill without mercy -even your own family members- anyone who tries to convince you to worship other gods.

17:2 through 13: Kill anyone who does evil-such as worshipping the stars- and violates the covenant. And if you’re not sure if the party is guilty, take it to court and if the Judge finds the party guilty and you refuse take part in stoning the defendant to death, then you should be killed too.

21:18: Kill your own son if he is rebellious.

Thou shalt not kill, but Deuteronomy, Leviticus, and Exodus is full of examples like this where we are to kill people for sinning. What about “as we forgive those who trespass against us”? I seem to have made executing people the theme here, but there are instructions/laws on other topics as well that we don’t follow, I’m assuming because they just don’t seem consistent with our faith.

So why is it OK to have a pork Bratwurst at the church fundraising event these days when God clearly forbids it?

You could argue that things were different back then and don’t apply today. But that would nullify the Ten Commandments. These laws I’m referring to were issued on the same day. They just didn’t make the top ten list.

1. There are civil laws, ceremonial laws, moral laws (that define what sin is), and health laws in the Bible (OT and NT).

2. Heb 10:4-12 says that the ceremonial laws dealing with animal sacrifices ended at the cross.

3.In addition the civil laws of any given government end when that government ends. The theocracy that existed in Ex 20... no longer exists on Earth. So the death penalties set by those civil laws can only be enforced if the current government votes to adopt them.

4. The clean vs unclean animal distinctions start before the flood - in Genesis 7:2-3 and 8:20 -- but the definition for those terms is not given to the reader until Lev 11.

======================

Jesus died on the cross to save us from sin - but not to "change biology" of animals or humans -- and not to make "evil be considered as good" .
 
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DamianWarS

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It clearly states in Deuteronomy 14:8 that we’re not to eat pork. In fact, Deuteronomy and Leviticus clearly state a lot of things that we don’t adhere to.

13:6 through18: We’re instructed to kill without mercy -even your own family members- anyone who tries to convince you to worship other gods.

17:2 through 13: Kill anyone who does evil-such as worshipping the stars- and violates the covenant. And if you’re not sure if the party is guilty, take it to court and if the Judge finds the party guilty and you refuse take part in stoning the defendant to death, then you should be killed too.

21:18: Kill your own son if he is rebellious.

Thou shalt not kill, but Deuteronomy, Leviticus, and Exodus is full of examples like this where we are to kill people for sinning. What about “as we forgive those who trespass against us”? I seem to have made executing people the theme here, but there are instructions/laws on other topics as well that we don’t follow, I’m assuming because they just don’t seem consistent with our faith.

So why is it OK to have a pork Bratwurst at the church fundraising event these days when God clearly forbids it?

You could argue that things were different back then and don’t apply today. But that would nullify the Ten Commandments. These laws I’m referring to were issued on the same day. They just didn’t make the top ten list.
lots of laws are an allusion to Israel being separated and called the people of God. Peter's dream shows us this. The thing with Peter's dream is it reveals to us that the law is actually not about food at all and it's really about God's outpouring on people. So as we see evident in Acts, there was a gentile outpouring so then is not this law released too? If not eating pork (or mixing thread, grain, squaring our beards etc..) points to how Israel was separate should we not be free to eat pork as it would point to the greater outpouring to all people groups? It seems that continual abstaining from pork would point to a tethered system.

I don't eat pork because my neighbours don't (they are all Muslim) and I want to show them love and make sure they are comfortable in my home so that they may see Christ. So my reasons for abstaining are missionally driven but they are not law driven. There are limits of course (pork is not one of them) and if all my neighbours ate pork I would eat it with them.
 
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The Liturgist

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I don't think anyone is disagreeing that it's an addition. I view it the same way as the Amplefied Bible adds comments in brackets for clarification in accordance with mainstream Christian theology.

The question is why was it added in? I think it was added in because it was in accordance with original (and continuing) Christian interpretation / theology / practice.

And also it logically follows from “what goes into a man does not defile him,” which contrary to the oft repeated claims of our Adventist friends, does imply all meats are clean. The context is irrelevant because if our Lord had wanted to exclude the orthodox interpretation he could have used a different turn of phrase.

Also, whether or not “thus making all foods clean” in Mark 7:19 is a matter of textual criticism, akin to the Longer Ending of Mark, the “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone” interpolation into the Gospel According to John, and the Comma Johanneum.
 
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The Liturgist

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No. The scriptures teach man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God *Matthew 4:4 from Deuteronomy 8:3 and not every one that says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven *Matthew 7:21

The only place in Scripture where the literal Mouth of God is to be found is in the New Testament. But it is generally accepted the various purity laws were written by Moses under divine inspiration, and were not on the tablets of the law. Which God destroyed because the Jews made an idol of it, which the Pharisees were doing once more with their legalism, hence Christians are no longer under the Mosaic Law (see Galatians and Romans).
 
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The Liturgist

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Fine.
If you want to obey EVERY word that comes from the mouth of God, then I'm assuming you keep ALL the laws written in Exodus and Leviticus. How many people have you stoned for not keeping the Sabbath? Are your clothes made from ONE fabric only, no mixes. Do all your fields contain only one kind of seed? Do you offer animal sacrifices? Do you never trim your beard, if you have one? Do you avoid people with skin diseases? Etc etc.
If you believe all these things are commanded and you have to obey them, then that's what you must do.

God's will is that we believe in Jesus, John 6:40.
We can DO all things correctly but if we do not believe in Jesus, or if we have faith that something else other than Jesus can save us, it is no good.
Jesus ALONE saves, blesses and gives eternal life - not Jesus + food laws, baptism, church rules or anything else. Believing in Jesus AND keeping all the food laws etc doesn't make God love you any the more, nor earn you any more blessings, spiritual brownie points etc.
Jesus is THE Word of God.

Really, I think its about which laws Ellen White and earlier Adventist leaders considered important, because otherwise, if we set aside the writings of Ellen White and the Adventist traditions going back to George Miller, there is no rhyme or reason to it. The Adventists go beyond the Torah in advocating a Vegan diet, whereas the Torah mandates meat consumption, for example, on Pascha. This is because of the views of the mid 19th century Adventists like Kellogg and Graham, the makers of cereals and crackers, that bland diets were healthier and also suppressed sexual desire.

There are some very interesting books on the history of the Millerite movement, the Great Disappointment, and the influence of Ellen White as a prophetic figure who shaped the modern SDA, and developed doctrines like the Investigative Judgement to soothe those who were upset about the lack of a second coming when George Miller predicted it. Of course those people had not read the phrase “no man knows the hour” and Ellen White had; she also to her credit made the SDA a Trinitarian church, whereas before her many Adventists or Millerites were neo-Arians who denied the Trinity and the deity and consubtantiality of Christ with the Father.
 
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The Liturgist

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And why would that be? We are in the new covenant now not the old covenant. Do you do animal sacrifices and follow the Sanctuary laws, the laws for the Levitical Priesthood for remission of sins? We are told why we no longer do them in Hebrews 7 to Hebrews 10 and elsewhere in the new testament scriptures.

And likewise, as is made clear by reading the New Testament, the New Covenant only requires gentiles to abstain from food offered to idols, things strangled, and consuming blood (the J/Ws have killed many of their members by misinterpreting that last bit as banning blood transfusion, but if there is one thing everyone in this thread should agree on, its that the J/Ws and Christian Science are evil cults; the J/Ws in particular make an extraordinary income, by exploiting the poorest and most vulnerable people in America; J/W members have the lowest per capita income of any major religion in the US; Unitarians have the highest, but this is due to “Old Money” Unitarians in Boston and elsewhere in New England descended from the Yankee settlers).
 
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Leaf473

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As one who had goats for many years I can assure you that they will not eat all kinds of things. In fact, they're quite selective. The myth might have started because goats "think with their mouths"; they will pick up and "taste" anything just to see what the object is like, much as we use our hands to inspect things.
Thanks for the input! Maybe it varies from goat to goat?

What Do Goats Eat? How to Feed Your Goats

"When you start buying feed for your goats, you’ll undoubtedly want to consider what they like to eat, as some owners find their animals will eat relatively anything.

In contrast, others note that their goats are particularly picky eaters."
 
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The Liturgist

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Yeshua HaDerekh only pointed out one other Christian denomination that adheres to a Kosher diet. So that's only two versus all the rest.

Also the Ethiopians and Eritreans are in full communion with the Copts, Syriac Orthodox and Armenians, who do eat Pork. They have no objection to other jurisdictions of their church, the Oriental Orthodox Church consuming pork. Because strictly speaking, the Ethiopians are not a denomination, but an autocephalous Jurisdiction in the Oriental Orthodox Church; a very good analogy would be the Church in Wales and the Church of England. The former used to be a part of the latter, and is still Anglican and in full communion with the Church of England. Until the early 20th century the Ethiopian Orthodox Church was an autonomous province of the Coptic Orthodox Church, subject to the Coptic Holy Synod and the Pope of Alexandria. Then they became autocephalous, with their own Patriarch and their own Holy Synod, but all of their customs are unchanged from the previous era; Ethiopians regularly make pilgrimages to Coptic monasteries in Egypt and the United States.

Now, it is true the Copts eat pork, but frankly, Ethiopian food is vastly superior; it rivals Armenian, Greek, Russian, and Ukrainian for the title of tastiest Orthodox food.
 
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Do you know what kosher is and where it comes from as a law in the old testament dietary laws? The Ethiopian Orthodox is a very old Church (2000 years) some believe having roots in Acts of the Apostles 8:26-38

The Ethiopian Church is very old, but the country practiced Judaism before converting to Orthodox Christianity, and the Oriental Orthodox Church of which the Patriarchate of Ethiopia is a part ears pork, in particular, the Copts eat pork, and the Ethiopians regard the ancient Coptic monasteries like St. Anthony’s as being among the holiest places, and even in the US, if you visit the new St. Anthony’s in Newberry Springs, California, you will frequently meet white robed Ethiopians. Who do bring their own food, which it is a good idea to eat, because the monks at St. Anthony's basically eat lentil beans, mustard, and cheese during all fasting seasons. But they will eat Pork during non-fasting seasons, and yet the Ethiopians who make pilgrimages to them do not.

The Ethiopian Church, as I mentioned in the thread on the Sabbath, also regard as sacred scripture, as part of the New Testament canon, the Didascalia, a book of church order similar to the Didache which commands worship on Sunday. They also accept 1 Enoch as canon, and several other books which are not among the deuterocanonical books used by the other OO churches, the Eastern Orthodox, the Roman Catholics or the Anglicans.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Talking about dietary laws with SDAs is like talking about speaking in tongues with Pentecostals. Or talking about predestination with Calvinists. Or talking about loss of salvation with Arminians.

If one holds to a particular denominational doctrine, they're apt to only be able/willing to interpret scripture through that lense.

That's why I'm non-denominational.

Amen I’ve seen this happen so many times and it is extremely common among Christians today. Too many people reject what the scriptures actually say in order to keep their doctrines intact. I can’t count how many times I’ve heard someone say that in John 15:2 the branches that were cut off were not really in Christ when Jesus specifically said that they were.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Personally I wouldn't have a problem with never eating pork again. I rarely eat it in the first place. The last time I recall buying pork chops was back in the 90s.

Yeah but what about bacon? Man I love bacon!!
 
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Leaf473

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1. There are civil laws, ceremonial laws, moral laws (that define what sin is), and health laws in the Bible (OT and NT).

2. Heb 10:4-12 says that the ceremonial laws dealing with animal sacrifices ended at the cross.

3.In addition the civil laws of any given government end when that government ends. The theocracy that existed in Ex 20... no longer exists on Earth. So the death penalties set by those civil laws can only be enforced if the current government votes to adopt them.

4. The clean vs unclean animal distinctions start before the flood - in Genesis 7:2-3 and 8:20 -- but the definition for those terms is not given to the reader until Lev 11.

======================

Jesus died on the cross to save us from sin - but not to "change biology" of animals or humans -- and not to make "evil be considered as good" .
Hi BobRyan, do you mean that breaking the moral laws was a sin, but eating an unclean food was more of a health issue? Not actually a sin to eat something unclean?
 
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Davy

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Maybe you could comment on verse 4...

I did, with Paul pointing to meats that God "created to be received". Many just pass over that condition and instead say it's healthy to eat any old thing. And apparently you just passed over that conditional clause in verse 4 also.
 
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Davy

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If science declared pork poisonous it would be swiftly removed from the supermarket.

Don't be silly. One can buy all sorts of unhealthy foods at the market, and no one limits purchases in ignorance.
 
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The Liturgist

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Talking about dietary laws with SDAs is like talking about speaking in tongues with Pentecostals. Or talking about predestination with Calvinists. Or talking about loss of salvation with Arminians.

If one holds to a particular denominational doctrine, they're apt to only be able/willing to interpret scripture through that lense.

That's why I'm non-denominational.

I think being non-denominational is an overreaction, and also not a solution to your problem, because most non-denominational churches are Arminian or Calvinist Evangelical churches with varying amounts of Charismatic practices.

I think you would be most at home in one of the broad church mainline denominations, like the Episcopal Church, the Anglican Church of North America, or the Uniting Church in Australia or the United Church of Canada or the Church of South India. A decade ago I would have mentioned the United Church of Christ but considering only a small minority of UCC parishes do not fly the rainbow flag, and the conservative parishes mostly left, and the UCC has shrunk faster than any other denomination, leaving just the hardcore liberal Christians, it no longer remains an option. One of the two breakaway groups, not the CCCC but the other one, is pretty broad church however.

I do sympathize with your dilemma; it is also a source of frustration to me how much alike all of the “non-denominational” churches are. I like broad church denominations which define Christianity kind of the way CF.com does, using the Nicene Creed, while tolerating multiple schools of interpretation.

The Orthodox Church and the Baptists are broader than people think; the best way to define Orthodox Church dogma, like Orthodox theology, is apophatically; it is easiest to say what the Orthodox do not believe in using the anathemas of the ecumenical councils. Within this “Pale of Orthodoxy” as I call it, one will find a broad diversity of opinions and practices, which is why the worship at New Skete Monastery looks nothing like the worship on Mount Athos or in a Russian Old Rite edinovertsy parish, and why you have such a vast difference in eschatological views between Archbishop Lazar Puhalo and Elder Ephrem of Arizona (Memory eternal).

But the Orthodox Church is also very resistant to change, so doing something different can’t simply be imposed, whereas on the other hand the Anglicans are more relaxed about change, and the UCC used to be a place of relative doctrinal freedom in each individual congregation, before a politicized interpretation of the faith based on heterodox theologies like Liberation Theology, Womanist Theology and “Queer Theology” took over (the homosexual Cathedral of Hope joining the UCC was one of the last straws for me). Churches like the Uniting Church in Australia resulted from a merger of most Protestant churches into a single church, which creates a broad church with much room for individual beliefs.

Baptists, like the Orthodox, are also what I would call “semi broad church.” You will find Arminian and Calvinist churches, the polity is congregational, so each Baptist church is highly autonomous, and the Baptist faith also places the responsibility for interpreting scripture on individual members. The sine qua non of their denomination is Believer’s Baptism, and there are three different major Baptist conventions, the SBC, which is pro-life and takes an admirable stance on social issues like sexual morality, the American Baptist Convention, which is a mainline church, and the National Baptist Convention, which is historically Black. There are also Primitive Baptists, Landmark Baptists and a few others, some of whom are more constricting than the SBC, for example. But the Baptists ardently insist on Believer’s Baptism to the same degree Pentecostals are into speaking in tongues.

Also, some Quaker groups grant members quite a broad range of freedom, but I don’t think I could do waiting worship. The Orthodox at some monasteries say the Jesus Prayer or the Prayer Rule of Seraphim of Sarov, which is like the Rosary except without the themed decades, just the slightly different Russian Orthodox version of the Hail Mary, together, silently, and I think I could handle that more easily, since it is active prayer.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I did, with Paul pointing to meats that God "created to be received". Many just pass over that condition and instead say it's healthy to eat any old thing. And apparently you just passed over that conditional clause in verse 4 also.

Well isn’t that exactly what Paul said in verse 5?

“by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, who forbid marriage
“by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 5.For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4:2-4‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬
 
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I didn’t say that. The Bible teaches us just because the majority does something, doesn’t make it the truth.

But he also said the Gates of Hell would not prevail against the Church; if you believe Sunday worship and eating pork or meat in general precludes salvation, thats a problem, because after the Ebionites ceased to exist, all Christians worshipped on Sunday and were members of churches where pork was consumed until the emergence of the Millerite movement and the SDA.
 
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