In Australia Vic Government trying to pass laws that criminalise preaching

dms1972

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That is not true. There are certainly forms of "talk therapy" which have been shown to contribute to harmful outcomes (and not shown to be at all effective in changing someone's sexuality or gender identity).

No one is talking about changing 'gender identity' (are you thinking about those who "transition"?) - and sexuality is not the same as sexual 'orientation' which is a construct which is sometimes self-chosen (if people are not pressured), sometimes following a period of uncertainty and ambivalence towards the same sex or opposite sex and perhaps after experimentation.

The attention has been mainly on what amount to aversion therapies (you yourself used that as an example). Because descriptions of that are more likely engender outrage - and that is the tactic being used by LGB activists.

If you want to talk about outcomes - for someone who has unwanted sexual feelings for the same sex the outcome would be less successful with a "gay affirming" therapist and there is no guarantee harm would not be done. You seem to be ignoring that? If same sex needs are being misinterpreted and there is symbolic confusion, and they have come to the point of seeing the homosexual lifestyle as futile (which it is a conclusion some homosexuals come to) they will be left with little or no hope by such therapy no matter how "affirming" the therapist is.

No one in this discussion thread I will repeat has or is arguing for this sort of therapy to be required. A mixture of outcomes are a part of every sort of psychotherapy whether it be for unwanted sexual feelings, depression or something else - if actual harm is done it is harder to evaluate but there could several reasons for that perhaps because someone was required to undertake this sort of therapy unwillingly - but it could occur due to simplistic versions of this sort of approach by unqualified people.

And I don't think this sort blanket ban is going to do anything at all to improve the lot of most LGBT people.
 
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Paidiske

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No one is attempting to change 'gender identity'

Again, this is not true. There are certainly attempts to make transgendered people adopt a gender identity in conformity with their biological sex.

- and sexual 'orientation' is a very modern construct which is usually self-chosen (if people are not pressured), sometimes following a period of uncertainty and ambivalence and perhaps experimentation.

But there are many attempts to change the underlying neurological reality which leads to someone describing themselves as having a particular orientation.

The attention is mainly on what amount to aversion therapies (you yourself used that as an example). Because descriptions of that are more likely engender outrage - and that is the tactic being used by LGB activists.

Not exclusively, though. For example, attempts to "exorcise" people of their sexuality or gender identity are common and generally contribute to trauma for those people.

The outcomes for someone who has unwanted sexual feelings for the same sex would be unsuccessful with a "gay affirming" therapist and real harm could be done.

Not necessarily. An ethical therapist will neither try to change what someone wants, nor work against it. Such a therapist would likely help that person to explore their motivations and marshal their resources towards their stated goals. What an ethical therapist will not do is resort to ineffective and harmful attempts to change someone's orientation, though.

And I don't think this blanket ban is going to do anything to improve the lot of LGBT people.

I am concerned that it will simply drive harmful practices further underground, but I do hope it will limit them and make them harder to access.
 
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ken777

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not disdain, sympathy and pity. these people have suffered years of abuse at the hands of people who claimed to love them.




What do you think happens when "therapy" reinforces that abuse?
Can you guess what happens when therapy addresses that long history of abuse instead?

The research speaks for itself about in regards to these questions.
Is it really impossible for you to recognize that some people are able to read the Bible for themselves and come to a decision that it teaches immoral desires should be suppressed. When you continually malign these people as being pawns of religious dogma you attack their individual integrity & autonomy. In fact you are abusing them by disparaging their choice as wrong, bad and baseless. Such abuse is hurtful & hateful and you should stop it because it is also harmful.
 
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ken777

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There is a sort of casuistry being employed at times to argue for the ban. To cite an individual case or two of bad experiences with some and argue from that seems rather casuistic. Could the same be said for citing examples of people who have benefited? Only if the same sort of therapy is being talked about and it isn't because all the examples being used to argue for the ban are not to do with a form of talk therapy, but with such things as aversion therapy which is entirely different in its whole approach. I suspect it rooted in people defending one sort of therapy and other arguing about particular techniques. The confusion comes from labeling them all as forms of conversion therapy. If I was arguing every male or female homosexual should be required undertake some form of conversion therapy, and argued this on the grounds that some people have benefited such an argument could be casuistic, but I am not and others expressing opposition to this ban are not arguing for that - we are arguing for the right of adults to make free and properly informed choices. So the government its seems is acting to some extent in response to disinformation, and emotional appeals.
I found this comment interesting as it gives a perspective on why there is such opposition to allowing people seeking help to access support for managing their feelings of same sex attraction:

"The legislation also demonstrates one of the oddest results of the modern emphasis on the radical freedom of the individual. In such a world, all must theoretically be allowed to have their own narratives of identity. But because some narratives of identity inevitably stand in opposition to others, some identities must therefore be privileged with legitimate status and others treated as cultural cancers. And that means that, in an ironic twist, the individual ceases to be sovereign and the government has to step in as enforcer. The lobby group of the day then decides who is in and who is out, with the result that, in this instance, the gay or trans person who wants to become straight or “cis” (to use the pretentious jargon), cannot be tolerated. His narrative calls into question that of others. We might say that his very existence is a threat. To grant any degree of legitimacy to his desire is to challenge the normative status of the desires of others."​
 
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SilverBear

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There is a sort of casuistry being employed at times to argue for the ban. To cite an individual case or two of bad experiences with some and argue from that seems rather casuistic. Could the same be said for citing examples of people who have benefited?
it's not one or two its thousands.

Only if the same sort of therapy is being talked about and it isn't because all the examples being used to argue for the ban are not to do with a form of talk therapy, but with such things as aversion therapy which is entirely different in its whole approach.
where did you get that idea? Look at the research done about the harmful and long lasting effects this sort of "therapy" has on people. Look at just what is being said and done and by who.

I suspect it rooted in people defending one sort of therapy and other arguing about the dangers of particular techniques. The confusion comes from labeling them all as forms of conversion therapy. If I was arguing every male or female homosexual should be required undertake some form of conversion therapy, and argued this on the grounds that some people have benefited such an argument could be casuistic, but I am not and others expressing opposition to this ban are not arguing for that -
that every homosexual should be put into this type of therapy is a cornerstone of conversion therapy at least as far as children are concerned. Joseph Nicolossi one of the biggest names in the ex-gay therapy movement advocated any child identified as or potentially being homosexual needs to be treated and he and his organization NARTH indicate that you can identify such children as young as age three.

how to tell if your three year old son is a flaming homosexual? Nicolossi points to the following signs:
"He runs like a sissy"
Doesn't get into physical fights with other boys
Doesn't find girls disgusting
Likes to play soccer
is bullied "Other children are great at recognizing homosexuality in their peer groups."
keeps his room clean
doesn't slouch
Doesn’t grunt or give one word answers.

Ref: A Parents Guide to Preventing Homosexuality


we are arguing for the right of adults to make free and properly informed choices. Your government it seems is acting to some extent in response to disinformation, and emotional appeals.
remember 85% of conversion therapy is aimed at children

But do those who engage in conversion therapy give good information so those few adults they come across can make informed choices?
Do they actually tell people about efficacy? About the harm conversion therapy causes? DO they portray homosexuality as a disease?
 
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SilverBear

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Is it really impossible for you to recognize that some people are able to read the Bible for themselves and come to a decision that it teaches immoral desires should be suppressed. When you continually malign these people as being pawns of religious dogma you attack their individual integrity & autonomy. In fact you are abusing them by disparaging their choice as wrong, bad and baseless. Such abuse is hurtful & hateful and you should stop it because it is also harmful.
Try talking to the people who lived through conversion therapy sometime
 
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Philip_B

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But do those who engage in conversion therapy give good information so those few adults they come across can make informed choices? Do they actually tell people about efficacy? About the harm conversion therapy causes? DO they portray homosexuality as a disease?
In light of the legislation in Victoria, those who engage in conversion therapy should cease and desist. It is not appropriate to tell people how to break the law. It is now passed. The sad thing is that there are some who see that the law doesn't apply to them because . . . The law came about because there was a recognition on the part of a reasonable number of people (including experts in the field) that the practice had done significant and sometimes irreparable damage to significant numbers, such that it seemed appropriate to outlaw the practice.
 
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dms1972

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Again, this is not true. There are certainly attempts to make transgendered people adopt a gender identity in conformity with their biological sex.
Sorry try again - such people are not "trans-gendered" by nature - they are suffering from gender-dysphoria and therefore the best practice is wait and watch. This bill could make it difficult for them to de-transition if they feel they have made a mistake (and there are those who have). There is no evidence "sex-changes" work or produce even 50% outcome of happier people, they become even more dependent on others acceptance but inevitably are making that less likely - tragically there is quite a high suicide rate amongst those who have transitioned.
 
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Paidiske

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Sorry try again - such people are not "trans-gendered" by nature - they are suffering from gender-dysphoria and therefore the best practice is wait and watch.

The best practice is worked out in each case between the patient and their doctor.

This bill could make it difficult for them to de-transition if they feel they have made a mistake (and there are those who have).

Not at all. What this bill does is prevent others from trying to force them to de-transition. Should a person decide that their gender identity actually fits better aligned with their biological sex, there is nothing to prevent them from living accordingly.
 
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dms1972

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In light of the legislation in Victoria, those who engage in conversion therapy should cease and desist. It is not appropriate to tell people how to break the law. It is now passed. The sad thing is that there are some who see that the law doesn't apply to them because . . . The law came about because there was a recognition on the part of a reasonable number of people (including experts in the field) that the practice had done significant and sometimes irreparable damage to significant numbers, such that it seemed appropriate to outlaw the practice.

I doubt that will happen, it doesn't come into effect for 12 months and hasn't yet got royal assent, perhaps some of the feared "unintended consequences" will be seen to be to costly and it will have to be scrapped or amended.

The problem is that no one is sure what they are permitted to do under this bill - is a priest permitted to read from the Bible:

"Dear Friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul." 1 Peter 2:11

What if there is a LGBT present at the service or Bible study? If he or she asked you about that verse and how he should apply it, how would you answer him?
 
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dms1972

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The best practice is worked out in each case between the patient and their doctor.
But by your uncritical support of this bill you are in effect denying (in the case of someone with unwanted homosexual feelings) the possibility a suitable course of pastoral care being worked out between a parishioner and his minister or priest, or between a psychotherapist and client, in effect this bill would be denying them the right to work on some of the issues that are troubling them and would want to work on, or work through. It seems to be telling a priest or minister he or she cannot tell a church member to abstain from homosexual sin. If you think it does not potentially criminalise that - then put it the matter to the test yourself.
 
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Paidiske

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But by your uncritical support of this bill you are in effect denying (in the case of someone with unwanted homosexual feelings) the possibility a suitable course of pastoral care being worked out between a parishioner and his minister or priest, or between a psychotherapist and client, in effect this bill would be denying them the right to work on some of the issues that are troubling them and would want to work on, or work through. It seems to be telling a priest or minister he or she cannot tell a church member to abstain from homosexual sin. If you think it does not potentially criminalise that - then put it the matter to the test yourself.

No, the bill does not prevent suitable pastoral care, or psychotherapy. Because we do not need conversion therapy to help someone work on or through their issues or support them to live in accordance with their faith.

Nor does this bill prevent us from telling people to abstain from sex in particular circumstances, because that is not conversion therapy.
 
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dms1972

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Nor does this bill prevent us from telling people to abstain from sex in particular circumstances, because that is not conversion therapy.
Well you'll not have any problems then. I guess you will find out if its deemed a "suppression practice".
 
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dms1972

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Not at all. What this bill does is prevent others from trying to force them to de-transition. Should a person decide that their gender identity actually fits better aligned with their biological sex, there is nothing to prevent them from living accordingly.
I guess Australians will find out what it does and doesn't prevent.
 
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dms1972

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I am concerned that it will simply drive harmful practices further underground, but I do hope it will limit them and make them harder to access.

What would be your response to someone who came to you and said they had been for several sessions of Reparative therapy with a Christian therapist who had studied that modality and that it had helped them to understand and work through some of their issues and feelings of gender inferiority and homosexual feelings (which they had wanted to be free from) and they had experienced a diminution of the homosexual feelings to the extent they were feeling more confident and less anxious now about relating with the opposite sex and even dating - would you validate their progress, or disbelieve it and try to find a way to change the subject?

Here is a quote regarding Reparative Therapy (remember people here are only arguing this should be available to those who want it, not that it should be required for everyone who is gay or lesbian).

"Therapy was a huge change in my life. Today I feel like I am more united inside, I feel clear in my mind about what I am feeling, why I am feeling it, and I actually know what I want to do with my life.

The most important thing that I learned from Reparative Therapy is that these same-sex feelings have to do with my history, some humiliating memories when I was young and vulnerable. I had bad things happen to me as a kid. When I walk in the street and see some guys I was attracted to I ask myself: “What I am feeling?” When I go back to my real feelings underneath the sexual attractions I know that they go back to two problems -- I had a bad relationship with my father, and I was sexually abused."​
 
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dms1972

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I found this comment interesting as it gives a perspective on why there is such opposition to allowing people seeking help to access support for managing their feelings of same sex attraction:

"The legislation also demonstrates one of the oddest results of the modern emphasis on the radical freedom of the individual. In such a world, all must theoretically be allowed to have their own narratives of identity. But because some narratives of identity inevitably stand in opposition to others, some identities must therefore be privileged with legitimate status and others treated as cultural cancers. And that means that, in an ironic twist, the individual ceases to be sovereign and the government has to step in as enforcer. The lobby group of the day then decides who is in and who is out, with the result that, in this instance, the gay or trans person who wants to become straight or “cis” (to use the pretentious jargon), cannot be tolerated. His narrative calls into question that of others. We might say that his very existence is a threat. To grant any degree of legitimacy to his desire is to challenge the normative status of the desires of others."​
That quote sums it up very well, I couldn't have put it as well myself.

It seems that today when compared to in the 1980s that there is more ignorance widespread also in terms of the hard facts about homosexuality. Many people were not born in that decade. The tendency once someone begins to become sexually active for it to become compulsive and the associated health risks - maybe these are not entirely ignored but they are not talked about much. I recently read a very sad story about a young man who became HIV positive the first time (around the age of 17) that he had gay sex.
 
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dms1972

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But there are many attempts to change the underlying neurological reality which leads to someone describing themselves as having a particular orientation.

Not directly, but the brain would also change if someone for instance gave up drugs or recovered from depression or had a religious conversion, so it would change if someone deeply repented of some sin. But deep repentance isn't in a persons power to initiate though it might come about when a person hits bottom and realises their need of God, or in the context of christian psychotherapy or counselling.

The higher levels of the human brain have a greater degree of plasticity. Innate, primitive, preprogrammed, "hardwired," lower-level impulses can be modified by the higher, plastic, learned configuations of the brain.

There could be constructive changes in the neo-cortex, the neurons in this part of the brain experts say mediate the act of selectively choosing among various options, acceding to specific impulses and resisting others. For instance a 2011 study by Inge Volman suggests: "If the front part of the cerebral cortex is less active then people have less control over their social behaviour and automatically follow their inclinations more."

New patterns of behaviour are learned as it were on top of old ones, even though these are probably never completely eliminated - that why a complete "cure" strictly speaking is not possible there remains a possibility of relapse - but why say to people they cannot by God's grace and with appropriate support make real progress? We see people change in other ways - someone who previously was quite selfish can learn under certain circumstances to be more generous, and it can be a real change. Christain growth in any area means depending on God's grace knowing that while relapse may remain possible its loses it inevitablility.

It may be true that for some people who have long lived a homosexual lifestyle that change may be impossible, it probably will be by their own efforts - but we cannot say that it would be impossible for God. People have overcome drug and alcohol addictions by participating in recovery programs. However maybe for such people long immersed in a homosexual lifestyle celebacy is the right option. That's why some sort of screening might be a good idea to get an idea of what likelihood there is of SOCEs being of any help - maybe some other issue needs addressed first? - questions needing answered such as: How motivated are they? What is the source of their motivation or why are they seeking change? What inner resources have they? - What other resources can they draw upon - eg. personal faith?, a church or a support group? I believe the best forms of this sort of therapy may already review these in advance.
 
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Paidiske

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What would be your response to someone who came to you and said they had been for several sessions of Reparative therapy with a Christian therapist who had studied that modality and that it had helped them to understand and work through some of their issues and feelings of gender inferiority and homosexual feelings (which they had wanted to be free from) and they had experienced a diminution of the homosexual feelings to the extent they were feeling more confident and less anxious now about relating with the opposite sex and even dating - would you validate their progress, or disbelieve it and try to find a way to change the subject?

Why on earth would I disbelieve them or change the subject? I would attempt to attend to their pastoral need at the time (the reason for their coming to me), which is not clear from your hypothetical.

New patterns of behaviour are learned as it were on top of old ones, even though these are probably never completely eliminated - that why a complete "cure" strictly speaking is not possible there remains a possibility of relapse - but why say to people they cannot by God's grace and with appropriate support make real progress.

I am not suggesting that someone cannot make "real progress" (however progress is defined). That is not what banning conversion therapy is about.
 
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SilverBear

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Sorry try again - such people are not "trans-gendered" by nature - they are suffering from gender-dysphoria
transgender and gender dysphoria are not the same thing.
While many trans people experience dysphoria, especially before transitioning, not all trans people do. Gender dysphoria is defined as the distress a transgender person experiences due to the disconnect between their gender identity and their physical sex.

and therefore the best practice is wait and watch. This bill could make it difficult for them to de-transition if they feel they have made a mistake (and there are those who have). There is no evidence "sex-changes" work or produce even 50% outcome of happier people, they become even more dependent on others acceptance but inevitably are making that less likely - tragically there is quite a high suicide rate amongst those who have transitioned.
and once again you are wrong. the largest and longest running study of transgender individuals : Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden by Cecilia Dhejne et al showed exactly that. The study followed 324 sex-reassigned persons (191 male-to-females, 133 female-to-males) for 11 years and found that they were happier and the suicide rate was statistically the same with the general public.
 
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