Women Priests.

SkyWriting

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If misogynists' and those who incorrectly support patriarchy use these verses, that does not make the Word of God wrong, just those who wish to use these verses in an ill way wrong!

No hermeneutics is hermeneutics- regardless of peoples use or abuse of the results.

Should we reassess the lake of fire because a majority of Christendom now reject the concept of eternal torment? NO! Or those who wish to use it as a cudgel to beat people into a cult like submission? NO!
Should we reassess the simple command here because there are some who wish to abuse its instruction? NO!

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
This eliminates all gender bias from the scriptures.
Following the golden rule, none can exist.

If you ignore the golden rule you get to discriminate any which way you choose.
What Does the Bible Say About The Golden Rule?
 
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SkyWriting

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Most everyone says that John Paul II closed the door on the matter. Maybe, but who knows what could happen in 100 years? After all, Cantate Domino was considered an infallible Papal Bull for centuries and Ultra-Traditional Catholics still view it as infallible. Yet, the current Catholic teaching on "invincible ignorance" has opened the door of salvation to non-Catholic Christians and non-Christians, something that was specifically closed in the Cantate Domino Papal Bull. Hence, only time will tell if the Catholic Church will one day change it's mind and allow women priests.

If you do unto others as you would have them do unto you, then gender bias cannot exist.
The Pope can ignore the golden rule if He wants to. But nobody else has to.
 
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Paidiske

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If misogynists' and those who incorrectly support patriarchy use these verses, that does not make the Word of God wrong, just those who wish to use these verses in an ill way wrong!

Indeed! Which is why - despite claims to the contrary - I can continue to consider such verses inspired Scripture, despite being an ordained woman.

Should we reassess the simple command here because there are some who wish to abuse its instruction? NO!

Exactly. So we accept the simple command to marital fidelity, and ignore those who abuse it to exclude women.
 
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Gregorikos

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And another useless point to make about woman being allowed to pastor!

No, the point there was that in most gendered languages, including Greek, male is the default gender. And the thing is, everybody knows this. You must be the first person in history to argue against this irrefutable fact. And even in the face of undeniable example after example, you continue to want to make an argument of it.

nolidad said:
And you yet to establish that it is an idiom! And no it is not a common expression on gravestones. According to you the expression on gravestones was "faithful to his wife" Get your own story straight.

The story is straight. The problem is that you don't understand what an idiom is. Now you seem to be thinking that an each translator must translate an idiom using the same words as the next translator. But that is absurd. They all understand it as an idiom, translating it in a non-literal sense. That destroys your contention that a bishop must be a married man.

nolidad said:
I still contend Faithful to His wife would be the candidate for the idiom taken from the husband of one wife.

It is certainly possible to translate an idiom in one language with an idiom in another language. The idiom in the target language doesn't negate the idiom in the source language.

nolidad said:
Yeah and that is all you brought fro proof! "They said". Idioms are parts of speech that develop over time- show the evidence in time that the husband of one wife is an idiom for a man being faithful to his spouse! Then show the development in time that husband of one wife actually would mean gender neutral faithfulness! Just don't shove another batch of your scholars who say it is and don't give the evidence to support their say so!

I think it's up to you to prove that idioms develop over time. That's been your repeated contention. Prove it.

nolidad said:
Make you a deal! You provide teh linguistic development of husband of one wife becoming an idiom for faithful to their spouse and I will give the bio of HIM! Before I divulge I am still waiting for evidence and not just a nother batch of "scholarly opinions"

You're the one that cited your so-called " teacher" to buttress your credibility. "My teacher has all these degrees." "My teacher says 'meh' to that." If you now don't want to reveal the identity of your so-called "teacher" we'll just assume you were blowing smoke.

nolidad said:
Also still waiting for you to show that aner and gyne here are actually used in the rare instances when they can mean either. Also gyne is never shown to be used of as a male person in any known instances- so you need to come up with another obscure reference book.

LOL @ "still waiting." I showed you three instances of aner being used of both genders, James 1:8, Ephesians 4:13, Romans 4:8.

Here is number four: James 3:2

Not that is matters. μιᾶς γυναικὸς ἄνδρα literally means "husband of one wife." Neither I nor anybody else has ever contended otherwise. A husband, of course, is a man. A wife is a woman. But since the expression is an idiom it doesn't matter what the words literally mean.

Remember the definition of an idiom? "An idiom is a commonly used expression whose meaning does not relate to the literal meaning of its words."
 
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Gregorikos

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It's as clear as the nose on your face. That's the message, I guess. And that means that a poster here on this revered research project we call CF is virtually alone in understanding the meaning of the original languages. It means that thousands of the best theologians, linguists, etc. throughout all the centuries, the people who produced every Bible translation of note...were completely ignorant of what we've just been told is as simple as recognizing an idiom or reading a grave marker. All of them just "missed it." ;)

That would be an excellent point if it were true. But in support of my point I've quoted Andreas Köstenberger, Research Professor of New Testament and Biblical Theology and founding director of the Center for Biblical Studies at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. I've cited Douglas Moo, after teaching for more than twenty years at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in Illinois, has served as Blanchard Professor of New Testament at the Wheaton College Graduate School since 2000. I've cited Thomas Schreiner, the James Buchanan Harrison Professor of New Testament Interpretation at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He previously taught at Bethel Theological Seminary and Azusa Pacific University. I've cited Frederick Danker in A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd Edition. I've cited the majority of Bible translators on the committees of the NRSV, NIV, NET, NEB, and NLT who may disagree on outcome, but are unanimous that the expression μιᾶς γυναικὸς ἄνδρα is best understood as an idiom and not translated literally.
 
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sparow

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Sin is all in your mind. It's not a tool for judging others.

Everything is in the mind; even our perceptions; Man is essentially in two parts, a hand full of clay and the breath of God; I conclude it is our mind (subconscious) that makes us breath; our brain is clay but our mind comes from God. Sin is breaking the law; some think doing away with the Law does away with sin; I have been told this by employers, "Don't think, just do what you are told", and in a proper context this is true; there is good thinking and bad thinking.
 
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SkyWriting

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Everything is in the mind; even our perceptions; Man is essentially in two parts, a hand full of clay and the breath of God; I conclude it is our mind (subconscious) that makes us breath; our brain is clay but our mind comes from God. Sin is breaking the law; some think doing away with the Law does away with sin; I have been told this by employers, "Don't think, just do what you are told", and in a proper context this is true; there is good thinking and bad thinking.

And Jesus explained, you have heard it said to do what you are told. Don't do what you are told. Think instead.
 
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SkyWriting

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The man was deceived thru the woman, by Satan.

It's just a story. Adam was no less guilty in the end. Of course, it's the woman's fault. They don't vote or own land. And they are unclean for weeks every month. SO of course sin is their fault.
 
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nolidad

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Indeed! Which is why - despite claims to the contrary - I can continue to consider such verses inspired Scripture, despite being an ordained woman.



Exactly. So we accept the simple command to marital fidelity, and ignore those who abuse it to exclude women.


Can you show me five tranlsations of the timothy passage that simply says marital fidelity? Can you show me the greek that shows no genders involved?

So faithful homosexuals and lesbians can be pastors.
 
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nolidad

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No, the point there was that in most gendered languages, including Greek, male is the default gender. And the thing is, everybody knows this. You must be the first person in history to argue against this irrefutable fact. And even in the face of undeniable example after example, you continue to want to make an argument of it.

For pronouns sure. but this passage cites qualifications and it says a husband must have one wife! both genders are used here! That ends this argument for this verse.

The story is straight. The problem is that you don't understand what an idiom is. Now you seem to be thinking that an each translator must translate an idiom using the same words as the next translator. But that is absurd. They all understand it as an idiom, translating it in a non-literal sense. That destroys your contention that a bishop must be a married man.

Deception doesn't become you. I do understand what an idiom is and I showed you true idioms versus your alleged and unproved claim that a husband of one wife is an idiom for simple marital fidelity! YOu must be a champ at the game Twister the way you twist and turn! And no THEY all do not understand this as an idiom! Matter of fact very few understand this as an idiom. and that is by simply taking th eword of some scholares who proividse no histoircal baisis of how this developed as an idiom.

It is certainly possible to translate an idiom in one language with an idiom in another language. The idiom in the target language doesn't negate the idiom in the source language.

And we are still waiting for empirical historic evidence that shows the development of this passage to be an idiom for simply being maritally faithful! Remember an idiom is a phrase not recognized by its words! Faithfulness can certainly be recognized in these words "A Bishop therefore must be the husband of one wife"!


I think it's up to you to prove that idioms develop over time. That's been your repeated contention. Prove it.

YOu allege that the biblical passage is an idiom- you must prove it! I say it is not. Prove it is! And remember citing some scholar who says in their opinion, they think it probably is an idiom! That is not proof but opinion! Especially inlight of the fact that the bulk of Scholars are against you! Even your vaunted orthodox churches whom you cite as Junia being an apostle and yet do not nor have ever ordained women!


You're the one that cited your so-called " teacher" to buttress your credibility. "My teacher has all these degrees." "My teacher says 'meh' to that." If you now don't want to reveal the identity of your so-called "teacher" we'll just assume you were blowing smoke.

Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum. ariel.org you can learn of his credentials there. There did I blow my smoke well????

Not that is matters. μιᾶς γυναικὸς ἄνδρα literally means "husband of one wife." Neither I nor anybody else has ever contended otherwise. A husband, of course, is a man. A wife is a woman. But since the expression is an idiom it doesn't matter what the words literally mean.

Now just prove that this passage is an idiom with facts not scholarly opinion. Especially inlight of these writings from Paul as well.

8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

Here he is contrasting men and women.

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Women should be silent (this is a church ordinance not in the home)

Unless of course you contend that gyne here is gender neutral also!

11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Are you contending gyne here is idiomatic and means simply partner? With the masculine as default??????????????

From 1 cor. 11:

3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.

9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

From 1 Cor. 14:

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.


14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

Based upon Pauls other writings governing Women in the church, your argument is not on thin ice, but no ice!
 
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Philip_B

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So faithful homosexuals and lesbians can be pastors.
This is not the subject of this thread. You raise it to deflect, as if for some reason the acceptance of women being ordained to the ancient of sacramental order of Priest is some how connected and has the logical outcome of affirming gay lifestyle.

14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
1 Corinthians 11.14:
Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair, it is degrading to him,​

This is still not the subject of this thread, however honestly, who cares how long anyone else's hair is?! This surely is a cultural artefact carried in the historic text. And indeed I note that the ancient depictions of Jesus suggest that he had a decent head of hair.
spas_vsederzhitel_sinay.jpg
 
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Paidiske

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Can you show me five tranlsations of the timothy passage that simply says marital fidelity?

That's the meaning of the term used.

So faithful homosexuals and lesbians can be pastors.

You're really hung up on this, aren't you? Yet it's a completely separate topic. It seems to me clear that, given everything else Scripture says about marriage and same-sex relations, such an idea would not be in accord with Paul's thought on the matter. Unlike the matter of women, where Paul's practice of including and lauding women leaders in the church is very clear.
 
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nolidad

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This is not the subject of this thread. You raise it to deflect, as if for some reason the acceptance of women being ordained to the ancient of sacramental order of Priest is some how connected and has the logical outcome of affirming gay lifestyle.

Well lots of things that are not the subject of this thread have been discussed.

But if the husband of one wife in reality just simply means faithfulness to ones spouse- it is a box that must be opened.

This is still not the subject of this thread, however honestly, who cares how long anyone else's hair is?! This surely is a cultural artefact carried in the historic text. And indeed I note that the ancient depictions of Jesus suggest that he had a decent head of hair.

Well as I was presenting the case that Paul, having said all them things I posted from the Inspired Word of God would then say it is okay for women to be bishops is really out of place! He said women should keep silent in the church! Pretty hard if you are a female pastor to shut up!
 
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Paidiske

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He said women should keep silent in the church!

And yet commended women who prayed, prophesied, and led in churches. Clearly the mention of silence was not an absolute.
 
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That's the meaning of the term used.

And I am sure you have the greek to verify that aner and gyne simply mean marital faithfulness


You're really hung up on this, aren't you? Yet it's a completely separate topic. It seems to me clear that, given everything else Scripture says about marriage and same-sex relations, such an idea would not be in accord with Paul's thought on the matter. Unlike the matter of women, where Paul's practice of including and lauding women leaders in the church is very clear.

Well as you have a very difficult time to see the clear teaching of Scripture on a candidate for the bishopric being the husband of one wife and the deacons mu9st be the husband of one wife and their (meaning deacons) wives must be sober and grave, I bring this up ans more and more denominations are giving up on what you call clear teaching and saying the same things you say to defend women in the bishopric. Is this a line too far for allegorizing and saying these are idioms?
 
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nolidad

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And yet commended women who prayed, prophesied, and led in churches. Clearly the mention of silence was not an absolute.

Well none led in churches, commended women who prayed and but that does not mean openly in the churches, and prophesying was not a church limited activity . As is recorded in Acts. But if one knew the construct of chjurch meetings in the culture, yes the edict was absolute in its context of church gatherings and what was conducted. That does not mean they could not talk to people or say hello or pray silently.
 
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Paidiske

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And I am sure you have the greek to verify that aner and gyne simply mean marital faithfulness

The point is the one, not the gender of the spouse.

I bring this up ans more and more denominations are giving up on what you call clear teaching and saying the same things you say to defend women in the bishopric. Is this a line too far for allegorizing and saying these are idioms?

First, this is not "allegorising." Second, it is an idiom, but even an idiom must be understood within its context. Clearly Paul was not commending same-sex marriage, a phenomenon unknown in his culture and against the laws and ethics of the time.

And third, again, it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. It is highly insulting to keep raising it here, as if faithful women in ministry are comparable to those who commit sexual immorality.

Well none led in churches, commended women who prayed and but that does not mean openly in the churches, and prophesying was not a church limited activity .

On the contrary; we know that it was the custom for the patron of a house church to preside over its worship, and we know that some of the earliest patrons were women (eg. Lydia). We know that women participated in the charismatic worship of the early church, including its prayer and prophecy. We know that the New Testament church had a woman deacon and a woman apostle, and women who taught.

It's that context which allows us to see that the injunction to "silence" was not absolute, because in other places Paul commends women doing all of these things!

That does not mean they could not talk to people or say hello or pray silently.

This reminds of the comment - was it by Virginia Woolf? - that nobody minded women writing, as long as they wrote "little notes" that were of no consequence.
 
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nolidad

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The point is the one, not the gender of the spouse.

Then boy Paul went out of his way to point out specific genders.


First, this is not "allegorising." Second, it is an idiom, but even an idiom must be understood within its context. Clearly Paul was not commending same-sex marriage, a phenomenon unknown in his culture and against the laws and ethics of the time.

And third, again, it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. It is highly insulting to keep raising it here, as if faithful women in ministry are comparable to those who commit sexual immorality.

Well no one has proven the hypothesis that "the husband of one wife " is an idiom! They have cited peoples opinions, but opinions are not facts or empirical evidence.

And women preachers were unknown in Pauls day as well! Both in Judaism and when you look at 1Cor. 14:

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

A clear statement you imply doesn't mean what he rote!

But I love this irony! YOu are me in defending against homosexuals being bishops and I am (not really for I agree with you) playing you! Are you going to tell the multiple denominations that allow gays to repach if they meet the requirement of Timothy they are wrong? They ruled that if they are faithfully married it is okay and they give all their quaint "proofs" that are no proofs just as you and gregorikios have done.
 
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Paidiske

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A clear statement you imply doesn't mean what he rote!

We know that Paul allowed women to speak in churches, so this passage cannot be taken as an absolute, but as only pertaining to a particular situation.

But I love this irony! YOu are me in defending against homosexuals being bishops and I am (not really for I agree with you) playing you! Are you going to tell the multiple denominations that allow gays to repach if they meet the requirement of Timothy they are wrong? They ruled that if they are faithfully married it is okay and they give all their quaint "proofs" that are no proofs just as you and gregorikios have done.

This paragraph is so confusingly written that I can't actually work out what you mean.

But it is off topic to this thread. This thread is about ordaining women, not about sexual ethics.
 
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