Why Am I Eating a Pork Chop?

MMXX said:

You wrote: "Does God want us to eat meat at all? No." That was a blanket statement, that's not based on scripture. If you can't show where it says in scripture that God doesn't want us to eat meat, then you are putting words in God's mouth.

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God gave dietary laws to ensure that if people chose to eat meat they would at least eat clean meat—but even so-called clean meat can cause cancer.

The purpose of righteousness is to bring us back in line with our original state as sinless created beings, in harmony with God's will and design. God set forth a plant-based diet at creation, which is eternal. We ate a plant-based diet in Eden, we'll eat a plant-based diet in heaven and the New Jerusalem. You can choose to eat all the meat you can while you're here, but it will be to your own detriment, physically and spiritually.

imge said:

Not really. His Fathers commandments are found here: Exodus 20

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My bad, actually the OP is addressing Deuteronomy 14:8.

There's nothing in Exodus 20 about eating pork.

This thread is not about the Sabbath.

Freth said:

Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Genesis 3:17-19 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Isaiah 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.​

God gave dietary laws to ensure that if people chose to eat meat they would at least eat clean meat—but even so-called clean meat can cause cancer.

The purpose of righteousness is to bring us back in line with our original state as sinless created beings, in harmony with God's will and design. God set forth a plant-based diet at creation, which is eternal. We ate a plant-based diet in Eden, we'll eat a plant-based diet in heaven and the New Jerusalem. You can choose to eat all the meat you can while you're here, but it will be to your own detriment, physically and spiritually.

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You wrote: "Does God want us to eat meat at all? No." I'm not seeing anything above which verifies that.

QUOTE="MMXX, post: 75734377, member: 430705"]That has nothing to do with Jesus amending Sabbath Law as the Lord of the Sabbath. He also said the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, which Moses never wrote about the Sabbath. Jesus being God got to change things without it being a sin.[/QUOTE]

MMXX said:

My bad, actually the OP is addressing Deuteronomy 14:8.

There's nothing in Exodus 20 about eating pork.

This thread is not about the Sabbath.

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You were the one that brought up the Sabbath.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Well no, that is NOT the context. That phrase was a later addition and was not in the original text. The original text uses the Greek word "katharizon"...that does not mean what you are trying to imply that it means...the context is with the word "aphedroma"...

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It's in the Alexandrian text. Where did you get the word "aphedroma" from? I Googled it and only got 2 hits, one of which is this thread.

imge said:

You were the one that brought up the Sabbath.

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Freth was the first one who mentioned the Sabbath in post #113

imge said:

This doesn't sound like a change in commandment to me.

Isaiah 66:16 "They that sanctify themselves and purify themselves in the garden, behind the tree in the midst. Eating swine's flesh and the abomination and the mouse, Shall be consumed together, saith the Lord." In other words, those who eat those things that God clearly condemns are an abomination.

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Really? Because what I see here is they will all be gathered together and come to recognize His glory and some of them will become priests & levites. See your quoting one verse out of context instead of continuing to read to get the full message.


““Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens, Following one in the center, Who eat pig’s flesh, detestable things, and mice, Will come to an end altogether,” declares the LORD. “For I know their works and their thoughts; the time is coming to gather all the nations and tongues. And they shall come and see My glory. And I will put a sign among them and send survivors from them to the nations: Tarshish, Put, Lud, Meshech, Tubal, and Javan, to the distant coastlands that have neither heard of My fame nor seen My glory. And they will declare My glory among the nations. Then they shall bring all your countrymen from all the nations as a grain offering to the LORD, on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules, and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem,” says the LORD, “just as the sons of Israel bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD. I will also take some of them as priests and Levites,” says the LORD.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭66:17-21‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Those who sanctify and purify themselves as well as those who eat swine, mice, and detestable things will come to an end together and they will come and see God’s glory and they will bring the Jews (all your countrymen) from all the nations to the Lord and He will take some of them as priests & levites. So it sounds to me like God is gathering the Gentiles to fulfill the prophecy of bringing the Jews back to repentance. Hopefully they’ll bring the Seventh Day Adventists back as well since they appear to be stumbling over the same stumbling block as the Jews.

“What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith; however, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though they could by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written: “BEHOLD, I AM LAYING IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND THE ONE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:30-33‬ ‭NASB2020‬

1an said:

Jesus quoted from the Old Testament to prove he was the Promised Messiah, and to show them their error against which they had no answer.

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That's the point; the OT prophesied Jesus' coming - as well as teaching us about God's creation, giving us Psalms of praise etc. If you "forget the OT" and tell others to do the same, you miss out on all that.
The Spirit inspired the OT just as much as the NT; are you saying he made a mistake?

imge said:

If there is no law why is satan enraged by those who keep His commandments. If the law was tossed out why would satan care?

Revelations 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

If we are not under the law why is this verse one of the last verses in the Bible right before the second coming of Jesus?

Revelations:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Seems like there is a promise for those who do keep His commandments. Perhaps there is a lot of misunderstandings about Gods laws? Do you really want to understand the truth or live the lifestyle you are more comfortable with?

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Jesus gave his commandment (mentioned in Revelation) in Matthew 28:16-20: Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
That is the commandment talked about in the verse you mentioned. Also, are you claiming to keep the WHOLE law? The Bible itself says that is impossible. So if you violate one aspect (eating pork) , you are guilty of it all, including murder.

Even in ancient times, there were different punishments for different infractions. Some were death penalty offenses, others like the dietary or health ones were met with being declared “unclean” for a period of time. During that time the affected person was essentially quarantined to allow signs of sickness to emerge. Otherwise, they were accepted back into the community without issue.

imge said:

So you believe there is no law and we are free to sin?

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Sin is defined as disobeying Christ and his Apostles and the ecclesiastical rule of the Christian Church as decided in ecumenical councils. The New Testament reiterates those parts of Old Covenant law still in effect. In general, what no longer applies are Jewish civil laws and Jewish ceremonial laws, violation of which makes one ritually impure but is not per se sinful. Christianity dispenses with all purity laws.

Freth said:

Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.​

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And have you read what God said after the flood? Genesis 9:3
Everything that moves was given for food - the only condition was that they didn't eat meat with blood still in it.

Freth said:

The purpose of righteousness is to bring us back in line with our original state as sinless created beings, in harmony with God's will and design.

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Nothing we do will ever make us righteous; we are made righteous through Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:17.

God gave Jews the Passover feast to remember the time they were rescued from Egypt. The main ingredient at that meal is lamb - God even gave them instructions about how to prepare and kill it, Exodus 12:3-11. As a Jew, Jesus would have celebrated Passover.

Freth said:

God set forth a plant-based diet at creation, which is eternal. We ate a plant-based diet in Eden,​

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Deut. 7:6
For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth.

Matt. 15:24
But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Strong in Him said:

That's the point; the OT prophesied Jesus' coming - as well as teaching us about God's creation, giving us Psalms of praise etc. If you "forget the OT" and tell others to do the same, you miss out on all that.
The Spirit inspired the OT just as much as the NT; are you saying he made a mistake?

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This is entirely correct. The Old Testament is pure Christological prophecy. Genesis 1 fortells Jesus’s death, repose in a tomb, and resurrection. Exodus, the long soteriological and eschatological journey to the promised land. Ecclesiastes, the worthlessness of secular life. Jonah, the death and resurrection of Christ and His salvation of the Gentiles. Isaiah, the Incarnation, and Ezekiel, the Resurrection. Proverbs, Ecclesiasticus and Wisdom provide more counsel, and Wisdom also foretells the crucifixion of our Lord, as does the Song of the Suffering Servant. Tobit prefigures the Gospel message of salvation. Job again foretells the general resurrection. It is all in there. The tabernacle and the temple is the body of our Lord, representing His humanity, and the Ark His divinity; the Ark also represents the Virgin Mary, who by giving birth to Christ became the mother of God. The Psalms are so full of high Christology that one could write a book on it.

The important thing when reading the Old Testament is to lean more heavily the exegetical method of the Catechtical School of Alexandria, which looks for allegories, parables, prophecy and typological symbolism, and when reading the New Testament, one should lean more heavily on the exegetical method of the school of Antioch, which is a literal-historical interpretation, bearing in mind both books do contain sections which obviously are better interpreted using one method rather than the other. The dangers of using only Antiochene type literal-historical interpretation is partially on view of this thread, but in my opinion the people suggesting Pork is sinful to eat have not even correctly exegeted the Old Testament using an Antiochene reading. The dangers of using a purely Alexandrian approach crop up in some of Origen’s shall we say less conventional ideas.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Again, the textual context does not say that, it is you that is implying it...

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That’s incorrect. What Eastern Orthodox jurisdiction are you a member of? Do you realize you are accusing the monks of the Holy Mountain and other Greek monasteries of sinning in their diet?

Freth said:

• Does God allow us to eat meat? Yes. God allows us that choice.
  
• Does God want us to eat unclean meat? No. Unclean meat defiles the body.
  
• Does God want us to eat meat at all? No. Meat causes cancer. The body is the temple.
  
• Why? Because God wants us to reach our utmost physical and spiritual potential.
• Are the dietary laws still binding? Yes. Human health was/is/always will be important.
• The judging of meat and drink is in the context of tradition and idolatry creeping in and causing men to judge those keeping God's law, as seen in Colossians 2:1-15.
• The context of Peter's dream in Acts 10 has nothing to do with permission to eat unclean meat. In Acts 10:28, Peter makes it clear the dream was about not calling any man unclean.
• The context of Matthew 15:11 is made apparent in Matthew 15:2, the cleanliness of hands. It has nothing to do with unclean meat.
• God doesn't change. Jesus doesn't change. Why would Jesus contradict dietary law? Jesus didn't contradict ceremonial law, He fulfilled it. Jesus did not fulfill personal health and spiritual well-being on the cross, that's still up to us to maintain.

The whole point is physical and spiritual. If you feed your body with junk, you're going to get junk in return, either in poor health or poor spirit.

Since Ellen White was mentioned, I thought I would post an excerpt, which shows her own convictions about diet, to clear up any misconceptions. This is from her book Patriarchs and Prophets.

The angel’s prohibition included “every unclean thing.” [Judges 13:3-5] The distinction between articles of food as clean and unclean was not a merely ceremonial and arbitrary regulation, but was based upon sanitary principles. To the observance of this distinction may be traced, in a great degree, the marvelous vitality which for thousands of years has distinguished the Jewish people. The principles of temperance must be carried further than the mere use of spirituous liquors. The use of stimulating and indigestible food is often equally injurious to health, and in many cases sows the seeds of drunkenness. True temperance teaches us to dispense entirely with everything hurtful and to use judiciously that which is healthful. There are few who realize as they should how much their habits of diet have to do with their health, their character, their usefulness in this world, and their eternal destiny. The appetite should ever be in subjection to the moral and intellectual powers. The body should be servant to the mind, and not the mind to the body. { PP 562.1}
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Romans 6:12-18

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. [therefore not "under the law"]
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The question that needs to be answered vs dietary concerns is this. How are we to achieve our full Christian potential if we have one foot in the world and one foot in heaven? This is why SDA are so adamant about diet. A clean body is also a clean spirit. Ellen White understood this clearly. She wrote Patriarchs and Prophets in 1890.

One doesn't need Ellen White to come to the truth that diet does matter. The whole point of Christianity is preparing ourselves for our inheritance. We are called to something greater and it's up to us to recognize that devoutness isn't just about spiritual habits, it's also about physical habits. All of it is connected.

It makes no sense (to me) to toss out God's laws that are clearly relevant to spiritual growth and physical health. Some will dismiss even the laws written in stone, so that they can keep one foot in the world (in the traditions of men, et al).

That old adage, "You are what you eat", is true.

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Ellen White’s historical writing contained numerous obvious mistakes, so why trust her on this? Especially when her doctrine is different from that of the entire Christian church since the 1st century.

Strong in Him said:

That's the point; the OT prophesied Jesus' coming - as well as teaching us about God's creation, giving us Psalms of praise etc. If you "forget the OT" and tell others to do the same, you miss out on all that.
The Spirit inspired the OT just as much as the NT; are you saying he made a mistake?

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Fair point, we need to respect where New and Old Testaments agree.
.

The Liturgist said:

Sin is defined as disobeying Christ and his Apostles and the ecclesiastical rule of the Christian Church as decided in ecumenical councils. The New Testament reiterates those parts of Old Covenant law still in effect. In general, what no longer applies are Jewish civil laws and Jewish ceremonial laws, violation of which makes one ritually impure but is not per se sinful. Christianity dispenses with all purity laws.

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Actually this is how scriptures define sin: 1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

Seems like you keep putting the church above God and the church can not save you or forgive sins, only God can do that. Maybe something to pray about?

MMXX said:

This thread reminds me of why I'm non-denominational.

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Usually, non-denominationals are Evangelical Protestants who simply aren’t members of one of the conservative or mainline denominations. But there is nothing in Presbyterianism, or Lutheranism, or Anglicanism, or the faith of the Assyrian Church of the East, that would likely distress you; some beliefs of EOs, OOs and Catholics are controversial, although I share in all of those of the OOs, most EO beliefs and all Catholic beliefs common to the Orthodox or not contradictory to the Orthodox faith, but I am also a Protestant, albeit one who like John Wesley looks to the Eastern churches for guidance (the doctrine of entire sanctification is an English language explanation for the Orthodox doctrine of theosis).

imge said:

Actually this is how scriptures define sin: 1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

Seems like you keep putting the church above God and the church can not save you or forgive sins, only God can do that. Maybe something to pray about?

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You need to go back and reread my posts because (a) I have never advocated sin or even mentioned lawlessness, (b) I have never put the church above God and (c) I have never contradicted 1 John 3:4.

But you just contradicted Matthew 16:18, which gives His ministers the authority to forgive or retain sin in God’s name. This is why in even the Anglican and Lutheran churches there is, in addition to general confession and absolution pronounced over the entire congregation, private auricular confession. To say this is not to put the Church over God; Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church and its members comprise the Body, and the power to bind and loose is authority delegated from God to His ministers, like the authority to exorcise demons.

Strong in Him said:

No he didn't!

Jesus quoted from the OT and fulfilled OT prophecies that pointed to him. He also referred to OT characters - Abraham, Moses, David, Jonah, Solomon.
If you want to "forget the OT", you have to throw out all the Psalms - 23, 139, 95, etc etc - Proverbs, history and prophecies. Ignore words like "the people who walked in darkness have seen a great light", "those who wait on the Lord will renew their strength", "Fear not for I have redeemed you, I have called you by name", and all the examples of Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Noah, Isaiah and so on.

The OT was the only Scripture that Jesus had.

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Just don't go committing genocide, worshipping idols, and stoning women caught in adultery etc.