Blood Sacrifice

HARK! · Feb 6, 2021

I have heard many Christians, even Pastors, pose the question, in wonderment, "Since the Jews are under the "Old Covenant;" I don't know how their sins are covered in absence of a Temple. We are covered by the blood of Messiah."

I'm not sure on what line of thinking that they exclude Yahshua from the from the formula in this assessment; (I was under the impression that there is only one way.) but they will often back up this puzzling assessment with these two passages:

Here is the first:

(CLV) Hb 9:21
Now the tabernacle also, and all the vessels of the ministry he likewise sprinkles with the blood.

(CLV) Hb 9:22
And almost all is being cleansed in blood according to the law, and apart from bloodshedding is coming not pardon.

Let's look at this verse in context.

What is the author of Hebrews trying to convey here? It's not people that are being covered in blood here; it's things.

They will quote Leviticus 17:11 on the heels of Hebrews 9:22:

Let's look at this verse in context.

(CLV) Lv 17:10
As for any man from the house of Israel and from the sojourner sojourning in your midst who should eat any blood, I will set My face against the soul eating blood, and I will cut him off from among his people,

(CLV) Lv 17:11
for the soul of the flesh, it is in the blood, and I Myself have assigned it to you to make a propitiatory shelter over your souls on the altar; for the blood, because of the soul, it makes a propitiatory shelter.

(CLV) Lv 17:12
Therefore I say to the sons of Israel: Not soul at all of you shall eat blood; nor shall the sojourner sojourning in your midst eat blood.

(CLV) Lv 17:13
Any man from the sons of Israel and from the sojourner sojourning in your midst who hunts a game animal or a flyer which may be eaten, he will pour out its blood and cover it with soil,

(CLV) Lv 17:14
for the soul of all flesh is its blood; as its soul is it. So I said to the sons of Israel: The blood of any flesh you shall not eat, for the soul of all flesh, it is its blood. Anyone eating it, he shall be cut off.

(CLV) Lv 17:15
Any soul who eats a carcass or an animal torn to pieces, whether a native or a sojourner, he will rinse his garments and bathe in water, and he will be unclean until the evening; then he will be clean.

(CLV) Lv 17:16
Yet if he should not rinse his garments and not bathe his flesh then he will bear his depravity.

These are dietary, and hygiene, instructions. Verse 11 speaks of a propitiatory shelter; but it doesn't say it is the only propitiatory shelter.

Is there no other way, without a blood sacrifice, that one could be forgiven in the "Old Covenant?"

(CLV) 2Ch 7:14
when My people upon whom My Name has been called, are submissive and pray and seek My face and turn back from their evil ways, then I shall hear from the heavens, I shall pardon their sin, and I shall heal their land.

(CLV) 2Ch 7:15
Now My eyes shall be open and My ears attentive to the prayer of this place.

So in other words pray and repent, and they would be forgiven. Build that relationship with our Father, and obey his Torah. There is no mention of a blood sacrifice.

It seems that is what he ultimately wants from us.

(CLV) Isa 1:11
Why, to Me, your many sacrifices? Yahweh is saying; I am surfeited with ascent offerings of rams and the fat of fatlings; And the blood of young bulls and he-lambs and he-goats I do not desire.

(CLV) Isa 1:12
In that you are coming to appear before Me, Who sought this from your hand, to tramp- My courts?

(CLV) Isa 1:13
Do not continue to bring- a futile approach present; Incense, it is an abhorrence to Me; New moon and sabbath, proclaiming- of a meeting—I |cannot bear a fast and a day of restraint.

(CLV) Isa 1:14
Your new moons and your appointed seasons My soul hates; They have become an encumbrance onto Me; I am tired of bearing them.

(CLV) Isa 1:15
And when you spread out your palms to Me, I shall obscure My eyes from you; Even though you multiply prayers, I will not hearken. Your hands, they are full of blood, Your fingers with lawlessness.

It would seem that prayers and sacrifices are rejected if one is living in disobedience.
The transgressor was to connect with the animal. When the animal died; the sin was to die with it.

But they had the temple. What happens if we are not in the land; and we don't have blood being sprinkled on all of those "things?" Then what?

Does our Father turn his back to his children if we are displaced from the land?

(CLV) 1Ki 8:46
In case they are sinning against You for there is no human who does not sin and You are angry with them and give them up before the enemy , so that their captors capture them and bring them to the land of the enemy , far or near,

(CLV) 1Ki 8:47
yet they turn back their heart in the land where they are captives, so that they return to You and supplicate in the land of their captors, saying, We have sinned, we are depraved, and we are wicked,

(CLV) 1Ki 8:48
and they return to You with all their heart, and with all their soul in the land of their enemies who had captured them, and they pray to You in the way of their land that You gave to their fathers, toward the city that You have chosen and the house that I have built for Your Name,

(CLV) 1Ki 8:49
then You will hearken from the heavens, the site of Your dwelling, to their prayer and their supplication, and You will execute right judgment for them.

(CLV) 1Ki 8:50
You will pardon Your people who have sinned against You, and all their transgressions with which they transgressed against You; and You will grant them compassion before their captors, so that they have compassion on them

Again, pray and repent.

So what about the poor? How do they fit in with this common understanding of Hebrews 9:21-22? What if they couldn't afford a blood sacrifice of a sheep or hairy goat? Sheep and goats are expensive. Did our father condemn the the poor to Hell; because they couldn't come up with the money to save themselves with a sheep or hairy goat?

(CLV) Lv 5:7
Should his hand not attain sufficient means for a flockling then he will bring as his guilt offering (because he has sinned), two turtledoves or two dove squabs to Yahweh, one as a sin offering and one as an ascent offering.

Nope. Two turtle doves will do.

(CLV) Lv 5:8
He will bring them to the priest who will bring near the one for the sin offering first. The priest will pinch off its head toward its nape yet shall not separate it.

(CLV) Lv 5:9
He will spatter some of the blood of the sin offering against the sidewall of the altar; and the remainder of the blood shall be wrung out at the foundation of the altar; it is a sin offering.

(CLV) Lv 5:10
And he shall offer the second as an ascent offering as is the custom. Thus the priest will make a propitiatory shelter over him for his sin with which he has sinned, and it will be pardoned him.

But what if he is so poor that he can't even afford two turtle doves?

(CLV) Lv 5:11
Should his hand not afford two turtledoves or two dove squabs then he will bring as his approach present (because he has sinned), a tenth of an ephah of flour as a sin offering. He shall not pour oil over it, nor shall he put frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering.

Wait! What's this? No blood? Just flour? How is this reconciled with the common interpretation of Hebrews 9: 21-22?

Gregory Thompson · Feb 6, 2021

This was fun to work out. Thanks for posting.

mmksparbud · Feb 6, 2021

HARK! said:
I have heard many Christians, even Pastors, pose the question, in wonderment, "Since the Jews are under the "Old Covenant;" I don't know how their sins are covered in absence of a Temple. We are covered by the blood of Messiah."

I'm not sure on what line of thinking that they exclude Yahshua from the from the formula in this assessment; (I was under the impression that there is only one way.) but they will often back up this puzzling assessment with these two passages:

Here is the first:

(CLV) Hb 9:21
Now the tabernacle also, and all the vessels of the ministry he likewise sprinkles with the blood.

(CLV) Hb 9:22
And almost all is being cleansed in blood according to the law, and apart from bloodshedding is coming not pardon.

Let's look at this verse in context.

What is the author of Hebrews trying to convey here? It's not people that are being covered in blood here; it's things.

They will quote Leviticus 17:11 on the heels of Hebrews 9:22:

Let's look at this verse in context.

(CLV) Lv 17:10
As for any man from the house of Israel and from the sojourner sojourning in your midst who should eat any blood, I will set My face against the soul eating blood, and I will cut him off from among his people,

(CLV) Lv 17:11
for the soul of the flesh, it is in the blood, and I Myself have assigned it to you to make a propitiatory shelter over your souls on the altar; for the blood, because of the soul, it makes a propitiatory shelter.

(CLV) Lv 17:12
Therefore I say to the sons of Israel: Not soul at all of you shall eat blood; nor shall the sojourner sojourning in your midst eat blood.

(CLV) Lv 17:13
Any man from the sons of Israel and from the sojourner sojourning in your midst who hunts a game animal or a flyer which may be eaten, he will pour out its blood and cover it with soil,

(CLV) Lv 17:14
for the soul of all flesh is its blood; as its soul is it. So I said to the sons of Israel: The blood of any flesh you shall not eat, for the soul of all flesh, it is its blood. Anyone eating it, he shall be cut off.

(CLV) Lv 17:15
Any soul who eats a carcass or an animal torn to pieces, whether a native or a sojourner, he will rinse his garments and bathe in water, and he will be unclean until the evening; then he will be clean.

(CLV) Lv 17:16
Yet if he should not rinse his garments and not bathe his flesh then he will bear his depravity.

These are dietary, and hygiene, instructions. Verse 11 speaks of a propitiatory shelter; but it doesn't say it is the only propitiatory shelter.

Is there no other way, without a blood sacrifice, that one could be forgiven in the "Old Covenant?"

(CLV) 2Ch 7:14
when My people upon whom My Name has been called, are submissive and pray and seek My face and turn back from their evil ways, then I shall hear from the heavens, I shall pardon their sin, and I shall heal their land.

(CLV) 2Ch 7:15
Now My eyes shall be open and My ears attentive to the prayer of this place.

So in other words pray and repent, and they would be forgiven. Build that relationship with our Father, and obey his Torah. There is no mention of a blood sacrifice.

It seems that is what he ultimately wants from us.

(CLV) Isa 1:11
Why, to Me, your many sacrifices? Yahweh is saying; I am surfeited with ascent offerings of rams and the fat of fatlings; And the blood of young bulls and he-lambs and he-goats I do not desire.

(CLV) Isa 1:12
In that you are coming to appear before Me, Who sought this from your hand, to tramp- My courts?

(CLV) Isa 1:13
Do not continue to bring- a futile approach present; Incense, it is an abhorrence to Me; New moon and sabbath, proclaiming- of a meeting—I |cannot bear a fast and a day of restraint.

(CLV) Isa 1:14
Your new moons and your appointed seasons My soul hates; They have become an encumbrance onto Me; I am tired of bearing them.

(CLV) Isa 1:15
And when you spread out your palms to Me, I shall obscure My eyes from you; Even though you multiply prayers, I will not hearken. Your hands, they are full of blood, Your fingers with lawlessness.

It would seem that prayers and sacrifices are rejected if one is living in disobedience.
The transgressor was to connect with the animal. When the animal died; the sin was to die with it.

But they had the temple. What happens if we are not in the land; and we don't have blood being sprinkled on all of those "things?" Then what?

Does our Father turn his back to his children if we are displaced from the land?

(CLV) 1Ki 8:46
In case they are sinning against You for there is no human who does not sin and You are angry with them and give them up before the enemy , so that their captors capture them and bring them to the land of the enemy , far or near,

(CLV) 1Ki 8:47
yet they turn back their heart in the land where they are captives, so that they return to You and supplicate in the land of their captors, saying, We have sinned, we are depraved, and we are wicked,

(CLV) 1Ki 8:48
and they return to You with all their heart, and with all their soul in the land of their enemies who had captured them, and they pray to You in the way of their land that You gave to their fathers, toward the city that You have chosen and the house that I have built for Your Name,

(CLV) 1Ki 8:49
then You will hearken from the heavens, the site of Your dwelling, to their prayer and their supplication, and You will execute right judgment for them.

(CLV) 1Ki 8:50
You will pardon Your people who have sinned against You, and all their transgressions with which they transgressed against You; and You will grant them compassion before their captors, so that they have compassion on them

Again, pray and repent.

So what about the poor? How do they fit in with this common understanding of Hebrews 9:21-22? What if they couldn't afford a blood sacrifice of a sheep or hairy goat? Sheep and goats are expensive. Did our father condemn the the poor to Hell; because they couldn't come up with the money to save themselves with a sheep or hairy goat?

(CLV) Lv 5:7
Should his hand not attain sufficient means for a flockling then he will bring as his guilt offering (because he has sinned), two turtledoves or two dove squabs to Yahweh, one as a sin offering and one as an ascent offering.

Nope. Two turtle doves will do.

(CLV) Lv 5:8
He will bring them to the priest who will bring near the one for the sin offering first. The priest will pinch off its head toward its nape yet shall not separate it.

(CLV) Lv 5:9
He will spatter some of the blood of the sin offering against the sidewall of the altar; and the remainder of the blood shall be wrung out at the foundation of the altar; it is a sin offering.

(CLV) Lv 5:10
And he shall offer the second as an ascent offering as is the custom. Thus the priest will make a propitiatory shelter over him for his sin with which he has sinned, and it will be pardoned him.

But what if he is so poor that he can't even afford two turtle doves?

(CLV) Lv 5:11
Should his hand not afford two turtledoves or two dove squabs then he will bring as his approach present (because he has sinned), a tenth of an ephah of flour as a sin offering. He shall not pour oil over it, nor shall he put frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering.

Wait! What's this? No blood? Just flour? How is this reconciled with the common interpretation of Hebrews 9: 21-22?

Because all sacrifices in the OT---pointed to the shed blood of Christ on the cross. That is why there are no more sacrifices, Jesus is now the Lamb sacrificed for all sins.

Llewelyn Stevenson · Feb 6, 2021

HARK! said:
Wait! What's this? No blood? Just flour? How is this reconciled with the common interpretation of Hebrews 9: 21-22?

Actually you misrepresent Paul in his writings [I am convinced Paul wrote it] and need to return to verse 19 to fully appreciate what he said.

When you read this and go back to the Book of Exodus you will see that Moses sprinkled the people with blood so what is written stands, "without the shedding of blood there is no remission."

For the perpetual sacrifice the use of blood and flour [in the case of the poor] is not in denial of the New Covenant for Jesus, himself, said, "This [bread] is my body broken for you," and, "This [cup] is my blood shed for the remission of sins of many."

Once again Christ fulfills the Law.

As to your first question there is only one way for Jew or Gentile to have their sins forgiven, and that is by Christ through his sacrifice, which is eternal, so the statement is ludicrous and they have not read the entirety of Hebrews where Paul plainly says, "The blood of bulls and goats cannot cleanse sin."

Salvation is not by sacrifices, it is by Christ.

HARK! · Feb 6, 2021

mmksparbud said:
Because all sacrifices in the OT---pointed to the shed blood of Christ on the cross. That is why there are no more sacrifices, Jesus is now the Lamb sacrificed for all sins.

That's an interesting doctrine. So making a flour sacrifice pointed to the blood of Messiah shed on the pale?

Would you care to share the relationship between the flour and the blood?

How about the money? Does the money point to the blood of Messiah on the pale too?

(CLV) Ex 30:15
The rich one, he shall not increase it, and the poor one, he shall not decrease it from half a shekel, to give as Yahweh's heave offering to shelter on your souls.

(CLV) Ex 30:16
You will take the sheltering ransom silver from the sons of Israel and give it onto the service of the tent of appointment that it become for the sons of Israel a memorial before Yahweh to shelter on your souls.

This passage was fulfilled in Acts 10:4. What about Cornelius' money sacrifice? Does that point backwards to Messiah's blood shed on the pale?

(CLV) Ac 10:4
Now he, looking intently at him, and becoming affrighted, said, "What is it, lord?" Now he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms ascended for a memorial in front of God.

Would you care to explain the relationship between the money and the blood?

Llewelyn Stevenson · Feb 6, 2021

HARK! said:
That's an interesting doctrine. So making a flour sacrifice pointed to the blood of Messiah shed on the pale?

Would you care to share the relationship between the flour and the blood?

How about the money? Does the money point to the blood of Messiah on the pale too?

(CLV) Ex 30:15
The rich one, he shall not increase it, and the poor one, he shall not decrease it from half a shekel, to give as Yahweh's heave offering to shelter on your souls.

(CLV) Ex 30:16
You will take the sheltering ransom silver from the sons of Israel and give it onto the service of the tent of appointment that it become for the sons of Israel a memorial before Yahweh to shelter on your souls.

This passage was fulfilled in Acts 10:4. What about Cornelius' money sacrifice? Does that point backwards to Messiah's blood shed on the pale?

(CLV) Ac 10:4
Now he, looking intently at him, and becoming affrighted, said, "What is it, lord?" Now he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms ascended for a memorial in front of God.

Would you care to explain the relationship between the money and the blood?

There is no relationship between the money and the blood and I do not see how Cornelius' caring for the poor and underprivileged in any way fulfills those commanded sacrifices, only that God received them in like manner: as a sweet smelling incense.

I think I adequately answered the first question regarding the flour and the blood by the supper the Lord implemented for us to observe.

mmksparbud · Feb 6, 2021

HARK! said:
That's an interesting doctrine. So making a flour sacrifice pointed to the blood of Messiah shed on the pale?

Would you care to share the relationship between the flour and the blood?

How about the money? Does the money point to the blood of Messiah on the pale too?

(CLV) Ex 30:15
The rich one, he shall not increase it, and the poor one, he shall not decrease it from half a shekel, to give as Yahweh's heave offering to shelter on your souls.

(CLV) Ex 30:16
You will take the sheltering ransom silver from the sons of Israel and give it onto the service of the tent of appointment that it become for the sons of Israel a memorial before Yahweh to shelter on your souls.

This passage was fulfilled in Acts 10:4. What about Cornelius' money sacrifice? Does that point backwards to Messiah's blood shed on the pale?

(CLV) Ac 10:4
Now he, looking intently at him, and becoming affrighted, said, "What is it, lord?" Now he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms ascended for a memorial in front of God.

Would you care to explain the relationship between the money and the blood?

Point is---sacrifice pointed to Him. Sacrifice comes in many forms. God did not just deal with the rich.

Mr. M · Feb 6, 2021

HARK! said:
What is the author of Hebrews trying to convey here? It's not people that are being covered in blood here; it's things.

Excellent topic! I just wanted to add that the blood of sprinkling pertains to more than just
atoning of sin. It is a token sign of covenant sanctification, and for cleansing [removing uncleanness].

Exodus 24:8 And Moses took the blood, sprinkled it on the people, and said, This is the blood
of the covenant which the Lord has made with you according to all these words.

Also part of the Passover, which needs mention to tie in to Abel.

Hebrews 11:28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed
the firstborn should touch them.

Exodus 12:
13 Now the blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you are. And when I see the blood,
I will pass over you; and the plague shall not be on you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt.
14 So this day shall be to you a memorial; and you shall keep it as a feast to the Lord throughout your generations. You shall keep it as a feast by an everlasting ordinance.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

Abel's sacrifice was more excellent because he offered the firstborn, which would normally be
the "birthright" for breeding. What did the Passover protect? What does this foreshadow?

Hebrews 12:24 Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling
that speaks better things than Abel.

1 Peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification
of the Spirit [cleansing], for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ[covenant]
Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

What does all of this have to do with Hebrews 9? It is earlier in the text.
Hebrews 9:
12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most
Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean,
sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, [why the interest in a red heifer? Nu 19]
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself
without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

This is a widely neglected Truth about the blood of Yeshua. It was shed both for
forgiveness, and cleansing; and is the blood of the covenant (sprinkling).

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse
us from all unrighteousness.

St_Worm2 · Feb 6, 2021

Hello @HARK!, what is the overall point of your OP?

If you mean that we can have the remission/forgiveness of our sins and be justified by God APART from the Savior's shed blood, then what was the purpose of having Him come here as a man and die in our stead on the Cross?

Thanks!

--David

HARK! · Feb 6, 2021

Llewelyn Stevenson said:
Actually you misrepresent Paul in his writings [I am convinced Paul wrote it] and need to return to verse 19 to fully appreciate what he said.

Paul didn't write Hebrews; but that is a topic for another thread.

I didn't misrepresent the author of Hebrews. We need to look at the verses in context. The blood in Hebrews 9:22 refers to a pardon in connection with the tabernacle. The blood in verse 19 refers to the blood of the covenant. These are two very different things.

Llewelyn Stevenson said:
When you read this and go back to the Book of Exodus you will see that Moses sprinkled the people with blood so what is written stands, "without the shedding of blood there is no remission."

Again the pardon is for the covenant. It's for transgression of the covenant at the alter. We don't enter a covenant with the intention of breaking it. Let's read the verse.

(CLV) Ex 24:8
Now Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people and said: Behold the blood of the covenant which Yahweh contracts with you concerning all these words.

This is not an offering. Let's take a closer look at the word covenant (ברית) b'riyt. The root of this word is the Hebrew word (בּרה) barah means choose or choice, It can also mean eat. Hebrew words all stem from root words. The words that stem from those root words are all related in meaning. Barut (בָּרוּת) means meat. Bir'yah (בּרי) means fattened, as in fattened choice meat.

How is all of this relevant? The ancient Hebrew language was an extension of Ancient Hebrew thinking. Ancient Hebrews thought in concrete terms in contrast to the abstract thought of Greek philosophy, which dominates the Western way of thinking. When a covenant was made, the Hebrew words that were used were "karat b'riyt." Karat means cut. Why cut?

Two parties who would make a covenant would take a fattened animal of the choicest meat from the flock, and cut it into pieces, and lay them on the ground. Then the two parties would pass through the pieces, to symbolically express their dedication to the terms. In other words they were saying that if one doesn't walk through the terms of the agreement; then the offender will end up like the dismembered animal.

We see an example of this in Jeremiah.

(CLV) Jer 34:18
I will make the men, the trespassers of My covenant, who do not carry out the words of the covenant which they contracted before Me, like the calf which they cut in two and passed between its sundered parts,

(CLV) Jer 34:19
the chief officials of Judah and the chief officials of Jerusalem, the court officials and the priests and all the people of the land who passed between the sundered parts of the calf.

(CLV) Jer 34:20
I will give them into the hand of their enemies and into the hand of those seeking their soul, and their carcasses will be food for the flyer of the heavens and for the beast of the earth.

Cutting a b'riyt is very much different than an offering of any kind.

Llewelyn Stevenson said:
For the perpetual sacrifice the use of blood and flour [in the case of the poor] is not in denial of the New Covenant for Jesus, himself, said, "This [bread] is my body broken for you," and, "This [cup] is my blood shed for the remission of sins of many."

I didn't say that it was. Neither does prayer and repentance deny the renewed b'riyt.

Llewelyn Stevenson said:
Once again Christ fulfills the Law.

(CLV) Ro 8:4
that the just requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who are not walking in accord with flesh, but in accord with spirit.

This is repentance.

Llewelyn Stevenson said:
As to your first question there is only one way for Jew or Gentile to have their sins forgiven, and that is by Christ through his sacrifice, which is eternal, so the statement is ludicrous and they have not read the entirety of Hebrews where Paul plainly says, "The blood of bulls and goats cannot cleanse sin."

Paul taught primarily, if not exclusively from the TaNAK.
Did you read the OP?

From the OP:

(CLV) Isa 1:11
Why, to Me, your many sacrifices? Yahweh is saying; I am surfeited with ascent offerings of rams and the fat of fatlings; And the blood of young bulls and he-lambs and he-goats I do not desire.

(CLV) Isa 1:12
In that you are coming to appear before Me, Who sought this from your hand, to tramp- My courts?

(CLV) Isa 1:13
Do not continue to bring- a futile approach present; Incense, it is an abhorrence to Me; New moon and sabbath, proclaiming- of a meeting—I |cannot bear a fast and a day of restraint.

(CLV) Isa 1:14
Your new moons and your appointed seasons My soul hates; They have become an encumbrance onto Me; I am tired of bearing them.

(CLV) Isa 1:15
And when you spread out your palms to Me, I shall obscure My eyes from you; Even though you multiply prayers, I will not hearken. Your hands, they are full of blood, Your fingers with lawlessness.

It would seem that prayers and sacrifices are rejected if one is living in disobedience.
The transgressor was to connect with the animal. When the animal died; the sin was to die with it.

(CLV) Hb 10:26
For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins,

Llewelyn Stevenson said:
Salvation is not by sacrifices, it is by Christ.

Salvation was never from sacrifices. We are saved by YHWH, through Yahshua.

YesheYahu (Isa) 43:
11 I, even I, am YHWH; and beside Me there is no savior

HARK! · Feb 6, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

Abel's sacrifice was more excellent because he offered the firstborn, which would normally be
the "birthright" for breeding. What did the Passover protect? What does this foreshadow?

Yes, Abel offered the choicest.

(CLV) 1Jn 3:12
not according as Cain was of the wicked one and slays his brother. And on behalf of what does he slay him? Seeing that his acts were wicked, yet those of his brother, just.

Acts? Wicked? What acts, besides slaying his brother, were wicked?

Just a few verses back John is taking about sin.

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

It seems that Cain was sinning; and that Abel was being obedient to YHWH's Torah. Then Cain was jealous of Abel's righteousness; so Cain sinned again, and killed Abel.

Let's take a closer look at this.

(CLV) Gn 4:2
Then she proceeded to give birth to his brother Abel. Abel became a shepherd of the flock, while Cain was serving the ground.

(CLV) Gn 4:3
And it came to be fat the end of a year's days that Cain brought an approach present to Yahweh from the fruit of the ground.

(CLV) Gn 4:4
As for Abel however, he brought some firstlings of his flock and their fat (חֵלֶב) portions. And Yahweh gave heed to Abel and his approach present.

(חֵלֶב)

fat
1. fat (of humans)
2. fat (of beasts)
3. choicest, best part, abundance (of products of the land)

Abel offered the best, the firstborn.

(CLV) Gn 4:5
But to Cain and his approach present He did not give heed; so Cain's anger grew very hot, and his face fell.

(CLV) Gn 4:6
Then Yahweh said to Cain: Why is your anger hot? And why is your face fallen?

The CLV added a lot of words to this next verse so I will use the CJB.

7 If you are doing what is good, shouldn't you hold your head high? And if you don't do what is good, sin is crouching at the door - it wants you, but you can rule over it."

What Torah did Cain transgress?

In verse three Cain brought a produce offering; but it doesn't say that he brought the first fruits. It doesn't say that he brought the best. YHWH commands us to give him our first fruits. This is not only acceptable; it's Torah.

YHWH rejected Cains offering because Cain sinned.

(CLV) Dt 18:4
The firstfruit of your grain, of your grape juice and your clarified oil and the first of the fleece of your flock shall you give to him;

HARK! · Feb 7, 2021

St_Worm2 said:
Hello @HARK!, what is the overall point of your OP?

Truth. I came to some realization of some truth; and I put it out there to see how it is received, applied, and what scriptural truth comes back as a result.

St_Worm2 said:
If you mean that we can have the remission/forgiveness of our sins and be justified by God APART from the Savior's shed blood, then what was the purpose of having Him come here as a man and die in our stead on the Cross?

Thanks!

--David

With Christ have I been crucified, yet I am living; not longer I, but living in me is Christ. Now that which I am now living in flesh, I am living in faith that is of the Son of God, Who loves me, and gives Himself up for me.

What is Paul talking about? Most Christians don't truly understand ho the sacrificial system worked. Paul did. When a sacrifice was made, the person making the sacrifice was to connect with the animal. Understanding the Sacrifices

When the animal was died, the person who made the sacrifice was to watch; and his sin was to die with the animal. Our carnal nature is to die with Yahshua.

(CLV) Mt 16:24
Then Jesus said to His disciples: "If anyone is wanting to come after Me, let him renounce himself and pick up his cross and follow Me.

(CLV) Ro 12:1
I am entreating you, then, brethren, by the pities of God, to present your bodies a sacrifice, living, holy, well pleasing to God, your logical divine service,

But isn't this wasn't this the message from the beginning?

Now for an answer to your question:

(CLV) 1Jn 3:8
Yet he who is doing sin is of the Adversary, for from the beginning is the Adversary sinning. For this was the Son of God manifested, that He should be annulling the acts of the Adversary.

We're moving closer to that day; but his work won't be completely finished for some time to come.

(CLV) Re 20:1
And I perceived a messenger descending out of heaven, having the key of the submerged chaos and a large chain in his hand.

(CLV) Re 20:2
And he lays hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the Adversary and Satan, and binds him a thousand years.

(CLV) Re 20:3
And he casts him into the submerged chaos and locks it, and seals it over him (lest he should still be deceiving the nations) until the thousand years should be finished. After these things he must be loosed a little time.

St_Worm2 · Feb 8, 2021

Hello again @HARK! I asked you,

St_Worm2 said:
If you mean that we can have the remission/forgiveness of our sins and be justified by God APART from the Savior's shed blood, then what was the purpose of having Him come here as a man and die in our stead on the Cross?

It seems like my question (from post #9 in this thread) must have been too ambiguous somehow, so let me ask it again, but in a slightly different way this time.

Do you believe that we can have the remission/forgiveness of our sins and be justified/saved by God APART from the Savior's shed blood?

1) Yes?
2) No?

Thanks

--David
p.s. - I may have additional questions for you, but I'd like to start with the one above first.

HARK! · Feb 8, 2021

St_Worm2 said:
It seems like my question (from post #9 in this thread) must have been too ambiguous somehow, so let me ask it again, but in a slightly different way this time.

Do you believe that we can have the remission/forgiveness of our sins and be justified/saved by God APART from the Savior's shed blood?

1) Yes?
2) No?
Thanks

--David
p.s. - I may have additional questions for you, but I'd like to start with the one above first.

Complex question
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A complex question, trick question, multiple question or plurium interrogationum (Latin, 'of many questions') is a question that has a presupposition that is complex. The presupposition is a proposition that is presumed to be acceptable to the respondent when the question is asked. The respondent becomes committed to this proposition when he gives any direct answer. The presupposition is called "complex" because it is a conjunctive proposition, a disjunctive proposition, or a conditional proposition. It could also be another type of proposition that contains some logical connective in a way that makes it have several parts that are component propositions.[1]

chunkofcoal · Feb 8, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
Excellent topic! I just wanted to add that the blood of sprinkling pertains to more than just
atoning of sin. It is a token sign of covenant sanctification, and for cleansing [removing uncleanness].

Exodus 24:8 And Moses took the blood, sprinkled it on the people, and said, This is the blood
of the covenant which the Lord has made with you according to all these words.

Also part of the Passover, which needs mention to tie in to Abel.

Hebrews 11:28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed
the firstborn should touch them.

Exodus 12:
13 Now the blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you are. And when I see the blood,
I will pass over you; and the plague shall not be on you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt.
14 So this day shall be to you a memorial; and you shall keep it as a feast to the Lord throughout your generations. You shall keep it as a feast by an everlasting ordinance.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

Abel's sacrifice was more excellent because he offered the firstborn, which would normally be
the "birthright" for breeding. What did the Passover protect? What does this foreshadow?

Hebrews 12:24 Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling
that speaks better things than Abel.

1 Peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification
of the Spirit [cleansing], for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ[covenant]
Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

What does all of this have to do with Hebrews 9? It is earlier in the text.
Hebrews 9:
12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most
Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean,
sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, [why the interest in a red heifer? Nu 19]
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself
without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

This is a widely neglected Truth about the blood of Yeshua. It was shed both for
forgiveness, and cleansing; and is the blood of the covenant (sprinkling).

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse
us from all unrighteousness.

You brought up a good point about "cleansing". The ashes of the red heifer was used to cleanse people from their encountering a corpse.
The blood of the red heifer was also used ritually.
So can one be forgiven their sins, but still be unclean? It is assumed that everyone has encountered a corpse (in the same room, house, hospital, etc.), but as you quoted from Hebrews:
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Mr. M · Feb 8, 2021

chunkofcoal said:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The Power of His Resurrection
Acts 24:
15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be
a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.
16 This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense
toward God and men.

Keyword: conscience [G4893]
G4893 - syneidēsis - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting
away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)
by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Philippians 3:
9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but
that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of
His sufferings, being conformed to His death.
11 If, by any means, I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

By way of doctrine we can clearly discern whether or not someone is committed to serving
the Will of the Father. To rightly divide the crucifixion from the resurrection is but one example.

John 7:17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether
it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.

Hebrews 9:
11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Redemption In Blood, And In Glory

Mr. M · Feb 8, 2021

chunkofcoal said:
So can one be forgiven their sins, but still be unclean?

Sanctification from "dead things".
2 Corinthians 6:
14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness
with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?
15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?
16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols?
For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
I will dwell in them and walk among them.
I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
17 Therefore, Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean, and I will receive you. [refers to 'dead things']
18 I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the Lord Almighty.

Galatians 2:
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners,
is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!
18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and
the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave
Himself for me.
21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ
died in vain.

Hebrews 9:
8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest
while the first tabernacle was still standing.
9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot
make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience—
10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until
the time of reformation.

Mr. M · Feb 8, 2021

chunkofcoal said:
You brought up a good point about "cleansing".

2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from
all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

tampasteve · Feb 8, 2021

HARK! said:
I have heard many Christians, even Pastors, pose the question, in wonderment, "Since the Jews are under the "Old Covenant;" I don't know how their sins are covered in absence of a Temple. We are covered by the blood of Messiah."

I have heard that said too, but the people that state that don't really understand Judaism if they tryly believe it. As you say, there are plenty of sacrifices that have nothing to do with sin - or even animals necessarily. Further, the scriptures are clear that God accepts prayers as a substitute, especially when there is no Temple. Solomon says so, as do the Psalms, among other verses and Midrash.

Blood Sacrifice

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