The Ezekiel Temple-a temple not made with human hands

keras

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Trying to discredit anyone by association with groups that maybe have some wrong beliefs, is a very poor way of rebutting their writings.
What is said in #150 is a comprehensive and undeniable article against the lie of people going to live in heaven.

Earth is where were made for and we never leave it, eventually God comes to dwell here, with us. Revelation 21:1-7
As KH says; Enoch and Elijah did not and could not have, gone to where God resides.
 
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jgr

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The early NT church did not teach or believe in going to heaven at death
Early NT church sources, quotes, dates?

Awaiting.

Trying to discredit anyone by association with groups that maybe have some wrong beliefs, is a very poor way of rebutting their writings.

Citing a known cult to support one's opinion is an excellent way of discrediting one's credibility.
 
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ShineyDays2

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As KH says; Enoch and Elijah did not and could not have, gone to where God resides.

What is said in #150 is a comprehensive and undeniable article against the lie of people going to live in heaven.

Earth is where were made for and we never leave it, eventually God comes to dwell here, with us.
So what you are really saying is that you prefer to trust a sinful man like Keith Hunt's heretical theory rather than what explicitly God says about Enoch and Elijah in His Holy Bible??
Don't you realize just how serious your comment is? You are basically calling God a liar. That is blasphemy!!

Enoch: "Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him."(Gen 5:24) Enoch was taken into heaven alive, never tasting physical death. Where else could Enoch have gone but to heaven?? This "translation" was a miracle and served to show the OT (and us alive NT believers that when the Lord returns on the Last Day,) that it is what will happen to us after the dead in Christ are raised and that we too will ascend to heaven with them and with Jesus.

Also, in Hebrews 11:5 it says "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was attested as having pleased God."

Elijah: "And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated [Elijah and Elisha]. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. And Elisha saw it and he cried, "My father, my father! the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!" And he saw him no more. (2Ki 2:11-12)
 
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keras

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Awaiting.
You tell me where the ECF's said we go to heaven when we die.
It is up to you to prove they did teach that, not for me to find something that isn't there!
Citing a known cult to support one's opinion is an excellent way of discrediting one's credibility.
It seems that anyone who contradicts your beliefs is a 'cult'.
Just a cheap shot to denigrate anyone who says things you disagree with.
Noted; that you fail to address any of the points raised in #150.
that it is what will happen to us after the dead in Christ are raised and that we too will ascend to heaven with them and with Jesus.
The Bible does not say this. You have added to scripture.
We will be with Jesus, on earth as Revelation 5:10 makes quite clear.
 
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ShineyDays2

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It seems that anyone who contradicts your beliefs is a 'cult'.
Just a cheap shot to denigrate anyone who says things you disagree with.

Today there are so many cults in this world who identify themselves as Christian, and/or believe in some parts of Christianity’s Theology. These False churches (cults) use the Bible as their scriptural text, but it is misapplied. This List is in no mean completed.
List of US Christian Cults (False Religious Churches)
  1. Alamo Christian Foundation Founder: Tony and Susan Alamo Other sects: Operates Music Square Church in TN 1981, Holiness Tabernacle in Dyer, AR, and End Times Book is the publishing arm. (Pentecostalism)
  2. All Souls Unitarian Church Founder: John Wolf (Unitarian Universalism)
  3. Ambassadors For Christ Founder: Jehovah’s Witnesses (Charles Taze Russell)
  4. Apostolic Churches; many (but not all) Apostolic churches adhere to Oneness Pentecostalism.
  5. Apostolic Overcoming Holy Church of God, Inc. (Oneness Pentecostalism/Modalism)
  6. Aquarian Church of Universal Service Founder: Paul Shockley (no specific
    doctrine. Similar to Unitarian-Universalist)
  7. Aquarian Foundation Founder: Keith Milton Rhinehart (Universalist)
  8. Aryan Nations (other names: The Church of Jesus Christ Christian) Founder: Wesley Swift Sect group from Christian Identity, American white supremacist church (White/Caucasian Only Members)
  9. Association for Christian Development, Auburn, WA: Sect group of Worldwide Church of God (Armstrongism)
  10. Assemblies of Yahweh (7th Day) (other names: Messianic (or Spiritual) Israelites, Modern Day Elijah) Founder: Jacob O. Meyer (Sacred Name movement: Judaism and Christianity)
  11. Assembly of Yahweh (Sacred Name Movement, Sabbatarianism)
  12. Assembly of YHW Yoshau (other names: Yahweh’s Assembly in Yahshua) Founder: Donald Mansager (Sacred Name movement: Sabbatarianism/Nontrinitarianism) Other sect groups: Yahweh’s New Covenant Assembly, Yahweh’s Assembly in Messiah
  13. Yahweh’s Restoration Ministry Founder: Alan Mansager (Sacred Name movement: Sabbatarianism) Sect group of Assembly of YHW Yoshau, Father Donald Mansager
  14. Beth HaShem Founder: Jacob Hawkins (Sacred Name, Sabbatarianism)
  15. Black Hebrew Israelites (other names: Commandment Keepers, African Hebrew Israelites of Jerusalem, Black Hebrews, African Hebrew Israelites, and Hebrew Israelites) Founder: William Saunders Crowdy Other sect groups: Church of the Living God, Church of God and Saints of Christ, Church of God in Jesus Christ, and Nation of Yahweh (Judaism)
  16. Branch Davidians Founder: Victor T. Houteff (7th Day Adventist: Nontrinitarianism/Sabbatarianism)
  17. Brethren (other names: The Garbage Eaters, The Body of Christ, The Brothers and Sisters ) Founder: Jim Roberts (Jesus Movement) (Millenarianism/Apocalypticism)
  18. Children of God (other names: The Family of Love, Children of God and the Family, The Family International) Founder: David ‘Moses’ Berg Other sect groups: World
    Services, Heaven’s Magic, Martinelli, Fellowship of Independent Christian Churches (Beliefs kept under secrecy)
  19. Christian Identity (other names: Identity Christianity) Founders: George Lincoln Rockwell and Wesley Swift Sects: White Supremacist, KKK (Klu Klux Klan), The Order, Anglo-Saxon Federation of America
  20. Christadelphians Founder: John Thomas It has several sect groups. (Biblical Unitarianism/Nontrinitarianism)
  21. Church of Christ, Scientist (another name: Christian Science) Founder: Mary Baker Eddy Another sect group: Bookmark; Santa Clarita, CA
  22. Church of Hakeem Founder: Hakeem Rasheed (a.k.a. Clifford Jones)
  23. Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ Apostolic Faith: Oneness Pentecostal church
  24. Church of Scientology Founder: L. Ron Hubbard Another sect group: Delphi School
  25. Church of God and True Holiness Founder: Robert Carr
  26. Foundation Church of Divine Truth Founder: (Another sect group: Church of the New Birth)
  27. Cosmerism It is a mixture of Christianity and Buddhism but embraces all religions as having the truth
  28. Divine Science Founder: Unknown Similar to Christian Science theology
  29. Esoteric Christianity (Equally to All Religions, like Cosmerism)
  30. Faithbuilders Fellowship; San Diego, CA: Theology similar to Jehovah’s Witnesses.
  31. GateKeepers (other names: Ahabah Sasah Prophetic Ministries) Founder: Christopher James Turgeon
  32. God’s House of Prayer for All People Founder: Samuel T. Allen
  33. Globalism When used in a religious sense, this term most often means to lose all national identity. Mankind must see itself as one world family.
  34. Hatikva Ministries Founder: Joseph Good (Jewish Roots of Christianity and Numerology)
  35. Holy Body of the Coming Jesus Christ Mission in New York (False prophecy about Jesus’ Return: Last Date Given: October 28, 1992 )
  36. Jehovah’s Witnesses Founder: Charles Taze Russell Other sect: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (their own version of the Bible); Other groups: Christian Millennial Fellowship, Christian Renewal Ministry, Bible Studies Fellowship, San Diego, Bible way Publications, Faith of Abraham – Church of God, Dawn Bible Student
  37. Kabbalah (Various spellings) Mystical Jewish teachings intermingled with teachings of Gnosticism, Neoplatonism, magic, and the occult.
  38. Nation of Yahweh (sect from Black Hebrew Israelites) Founder: Hulon Mitchell Jr.
  39. National Spiritual Science Center Founder: Alice Wellstood Tindall Other Sect of The Spiritual Science (Pantheism)
  40. New Age Movement (Evolutionary Godhood and Global Unity) A recent belief system that is borrowed from pantheistic Eastern religions and its practices from 19th-century Western occultism.
  41. New Thot Free Thot Founder: Bill Greenhouse Seeks to combine the teachings of Christian Science, Unity School of Christianity and New Thought philosophy
  42. New Thought Similar to Christian Science theology, however, it accepts the reality of the matter.
  43. Numerology The use of numbers to discover hidden knowledge.
    Associated with the Kabbalah and witchcraft.
  44. Order of the Solar Temple (other names: Ordre du Temple Solaire (OTS) in French, the International Chivalric Organization of the Solar Tradition or simply as The Solar Temple. It is a secret society that claims to be based upon the ideals of the Knights Templar.
  45. Oasis Fellowship Similar to Unity School of Christianity
  46. Pan African Orthodox Christian Church Founder: Founded by Albert B. Cleage, Jr. a.k.a. Jaramogi Abebe Agyeman
  47. Pathways Seminars Founder: Phil McGraw (from the Dr. Phil Show) and Thelma Box (a Texas businesswoman) (New Age)
  48. Philadelphia Church of God Founder: Gerald Flurry Another sect group of Worldwide Church of God (Armstrongism)
  49. Philadelphia Congregation of Yahweh Founder: William Scampton
  50. Seventh-day Adventist Church Founder: Ellen G. White (Sabbatarianism)
  51. Seventh Day (7th) Church of God Founder: William Miller Other sect groups: Church of God General Conference, Church of the Blessed Hope, Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement, Davidian SDA (Shepherd’s Rod), United Seventh-Day Brethren,Branch Davidians, Primitive Advent Christian Church, and Sabbath Rest Advent Church (Nontrinitarianism/Sabbatarianism)
  52. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (other names: Mormons, LDS Church, Mormon Church) Founder: Joseph Smith Other sect groups: American Study Group, Church of Christ-Temple Lot, Church of Christ with the Elijah Message, and many more. (Mormonism)
  53. The Commandment Keepers Founder: Wentworth Arthur Matthew
  54. The International Church of Christ (Boston or Crossroads [restoration] movement) Founder: Thomas Wayne “Kip” McKeen Jr. and his wife, Elena Garcia-Bengochea. Origins: The (Boston or Crossroads [restoration] movement) Believe in Orthodoxy, but it deviates from orthodoxy in both its requirement of baptism as a necessary element for salvation and its heavy requirement of discipleship.
  55. The Kingdom of Jesus Christ (sect from United Pentecostal Church) Founder: Apollo Quiboloy
  56. The Movement of Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God (sect from Roman Catholic Church) Founders: Credonia Mwerinde and Joseph Kibweteere
  57. The Twelve Tribes Founders: Gene & Marsha Spriggs
  58. True Church (other names: A True Church) Founder: Darwin Fish
  59. The Spiritual Science Founder: Julia Forrest
  60. The Unification Church (other names: The Moonies, CAUSA International, Family Federation of World Peace & Unification, American Constitution Committee) Founder: Sun Myung Moon
  61. The Way International Founder: Victor Paul Wierwille Other sect groups: American Fellowship Services, Biblical Research Center (Unitarian)
  62. United Church Evangelistic Association Founder Rev. Ike ( born, Frederick J. Eikerenkoetter II) Other sect groups: The United Church of Jesus Christ for All People, and the Christ Community United Church (Panpsychism)
  63. United Pentecostal Church (UPC) It is a part of the Oneness or “Apostolic” portion of the Pentecostal Movement Founder: unknown (Modalism)
  64. Unity School of Christianity (New Age)
  65. Universal Temple of Divine Light Founder: Don Slocum (New Age, Pantheism)
  66. Worldwide Church of God (WCG) Founder: Herbert W. Armstrong Other sect groups: The Global Church of God, The United Church of God, Biblical Church of God, Church of God Evangelistic, The Eternal Church of God, Faithful Word. (Armstrongism)
  67. Word-Faith Movement Founders: E.W. Kenyon and Kenneth E. Hagin (New Age/Pentecostalism)
 
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keras

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False churches (cults) use the Bible as their scriptural text, but it is misapplied.
Who is the arbiter of what is true or false?
It seems to me that some here put themselves up as judges.
Read and apply James 4:11-12.

None of us have the whole truth of all that God has planned for humankind. I would think that most, if not all of your list have some things correct. Their main problem is to make their leader into a demi-god.
The Roman Catholic Church would be the prime example of this! The RCC should head your list.
 
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jgr

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You tell me where the ECF's said we go to heaven when we die.
It is up to you to prove they did teach that, not for me to find something that isn't there!

You're citing the claim.

You're responsible to produce evidence supporting the claim.

Awaiting.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 5.36.1
"...Then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there..."

Your turn.

It seems that anyone who contradicts your beliefs is a 'cult'.
Just a cheap shot to denigrate anyone who says things you disagree with.
Noted; that you fail to address any of the points raised in #150.

The Philadelphia Church of God and other splinters of the Armstrong World Wide Church of God are duly recognized as cults.

Moriah's Song has ably documented that.

I don't address points made by cults.
 
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ShineyDays2

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2 Peter 2:1-3~ "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words; from of old their condemnation has not been idle, and their destruction has not been asleep."
 
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jgr

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After being accused of being a one man cult and now as a false prophet, I can only say: Wait for the Day, when all will be revealed.

Many will be very shocked and embarrassed after that Day.

We'll take the risk.

Provide the quote where you've been accused of being a one man cult or a false prophet.
 
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ShineyDays2

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DO HUMANS EVER GO TO HEAVEN?
#150 -
Keith Hunt's post by Keras

(The numbers in quotation marks were for numbering paragraphs in order get to a thought quicker)
Keith starts out with one of the classic techniques of "putting a Biblical truth down in order to be able to ridicule it." (I think it is called a "straw man's argument".) An example of this is to make heaven so boring you should not even want to go there: "you can "go to heaven" and live in bliss, doing...well they are not sure, maybe singing and strumming on a harp?" (3) He then proceeds to misrepresent another Biblical truth: "And most believe that going to heaven takes place when the physical body stops breathing and dies"(4) and denies that it was not the common view or teaching of the early NT Church of God. (Which jgr posted a ECF that did believe it to be a truth.)

About "heaven" versus "hell" goes, he says this: "They even had gloomy underworlds for those not thought to have done enough good in their physical lives to warrant the prize of "heaven." (2 & 7)

a) Keith makes is seem as though Born-Again Christians believe that "not being good enough" is what causes God to send you to hell.
b) He then implies that BAC's need to be good enough if they want to win the "prized jackpot".

IF WE SHALL GO TO HEAVEN ONE DAY
....

(8) In paragraph (8) Keith now makes an absurd list of verses where HE seems to be claiming that God failed to insert Keith's twisted sayings in the Bible. In other words..."Shame on you God???""

(Quote) "Surely we should be able to find many verses all over the Bible saying things such as:
a) "When we get to heaven,"
b) "When we see each other in heaven,"
c) "They are up there in heaven with God,"
d) "We shall go to heaven at Christ's return,"
e) "We shall be in heaven where God is one day.​
...and ends with: " BUT VERSES LIKE THIS CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE!

Keith does the same thing in paragraph (8). He first titles the section as: IF WE SHALL GO TO HEAVEN ONE DAY... (notice the IF?) then goes on to say that "surely we should be able to find many verses all over the Bible" so that the ones he puts forth can be shot down to make us look like our expectations are not firmly rooted in God's Word and that we must be gullible idiots if we put our faith in God's Word at all. That way he can end the paragraph with...."BUT VERSES LIKE THIS CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE!"

(9) Keith adds more fuel to the fire...."BUT, what we do read in the Bible is the Words of Jesus:
a) "No man goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13
b) "Where I go, you cannot come. John 7:34
c) "Your home is in this world, Mine is not. John 8:23
d) "I do not pray, Father, that You take them out of this world.... John 17:15

(Note: I have used the RSV to show just how much Keith has twisted the scripture verse he used that clearly shows his radical thoughts to be nothing but heresy!)

John 3:13 ~ 12) If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13)No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man."

In verse 13, Jesus is very clearly saying to Nicodemus that it was Jesus Himself that had to have come "from heaven" in order to be able to "ascend back into heaven" after his resurrection. Nicodemus did not have the ability to "ascend" into heaven by his own power any more than you and I do. Since Nicodemus had never been to heaven he could not "ascend" into heaven with the Lord in his mortal body until the resurrection on the Last Day. My previous post shows that at least those two and also those of Matthew 27:51-54 have ascended to heaven as one of the miraculous events that took place at the time of Jesus' death and resurrection. But all those ascensions were always by God's own will and power. (More on Matt 27 in another post soon)​

John 7:34 ~ 32)The Pharisees heard the crowd thus muttering about him, and the chief priests and Pharisees sent officers to arrest him. 33)Jesus then said, "I shall be with you a little longer, and then I go to him who sent me; 34)you will seek me and you will not find me; where I am you cannot come."

Jesus in referring to the Jewish leaders who despised him and only looked for reasons to kill him. They weren't really listening to Jesus, they only wanted to trap him. Anyone who despises God's Word like the Jewish leaders did will not go to heaven even in their time of desperation on the Day of Resurrection. The Jewish leaders will be among an innumerable amount of unbelievers who rejected Jesus' plan of salvation.​

But then to take that 3-letter word "you" and attempt to change it into to imply that it meant the entire human population would never be able to find Jesus no matter how much we seek Him through God's Holy Word and that it meant that believers could not go with Him on the Last Day to heaven is scripture twisting at its best!​

John 8:23 ~ 21)Again he said to them, "I go away, and you will seek me and die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come." 22)Then said to the Jews, "Will he kill himself, since he says, 'Where I am going, you cannot come'?" 23)He said to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24)I told you that you would die in your sins, for you will die in your sins unless you believe that I am he."

Some of those Jewish leaders as well as Nicodemus did turn and believe that he was the King, Savior, Prophet and Priest as prophesied in the OT.

John 17:15 ~ 15)"I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. 24)Father, I desire that they also, whom thou hast given me, may be with me where I am, to behold my glory which thou hast given me in thy love for me before the foundation of the world."

(More on other parts of Keith's article tomorrow)
 
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Timtofly

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The Roman Catholic Church would be the prime example of this! The RCC should head your list.
This was the first cult that most follow today. Just because it has become an established religion does not change the fact is was a cult to begin with. All cults start out with one or two leaders. Constantine was the leader who encouraged the Roman cult, and gave the church a political cultish dogmatic extremism.


However denying a physical life in heaven is almost as wrong. Jesus on the Cross opened Paradise, and claimed humanity starting with the repentant thief, could physically enter Paradise. The formation of a permanent body, was then contrasted to all Jesus taught that Adam's sinful flesh would die and return to dust. Jesus did not teach the death of the soul, nor even soul sleep. Jesus claimed Himself to be the resurrection and life. He would build the permanent incorruptible body, that the soul could now enter, instead of Abraham's bosom.

There will never be a general resurrection of the church or those in Christ covered by the Atonement of the Cross. All souls who leave this body of flesh, or changed at the Second Coming are not of this earth. They belong as citizens in Paradise. They have a permanent physical body in Paradise. They will never leave Paradise as their home, and their home will still be the New Jerusalem in the NHNE. This was the Covenant given to Abraham and confirmed by Moses, and accomplished by God himself on the Cross. This was the heavenly part of the Covenant. There is also the Covenant of an earthly forever reign of Abraham's seed through Jacob as being a reign on earth, besides the Redemption of Adam's descendants to Paradise. Abraham was given a land contract himself among Nations that would also continually populate earth, in addition to Paradise.
 
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ShineyDays2

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In my previous post I ended it after citing Keith Hunt's use of "John 17:15" but without commenting on it. The whole verse states:

"I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one."

If you look at the whole paragraph in my previous post you will see that Keith starts the paragraph with: "BUT what we do read in the Bible is the Word of Jesus:...."I do not pray, Father, that You take them out of this world...

By shrewdly omitting the last half of verse 15, Keith is essentially using Satan's technique and implying that Jesus is praying to the Father to keep them, the apostles and presumably all other believers, in the world - forever! He has to omit that last half of the verse because it does not fit with his humanistic beliefs of heaven for believers!

Now, we can see within the whole chapter of that beautiful prayer to the Father other verses that paint the true intent of the prayer for Himself, the apostles and all believers of all times ----

Verse 18: "As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world."
They have a job to do after He ascends to the Father; it's the Great Commission to preach the gospel to the world. That is why they have to stay in this world.
Verse 20: "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,"
Verse 24: "Father, I desire that they also, whom thou hast given me, may be with me where I am,..."
==================================================
To continue from the first portion of Keith Hunt's article:

(10)"So the truth is, the idea of a 'rapture to heaven', is a straight out Satanic lie; one of his most successful ones, that will cause many unprepared Christians to fall on the Day of trial. 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15".

1Pe 4:12 ~ "Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal which comes upon you to prove you, as though something strange were happening to you."

Now notice how he omits the very next verse that gives us the real context of the chapter in verse 13....
"But rejoice in so far as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed." (verse 13) We are called to suffer persecutions as did our Savior.​

1Pe 4:7 ~ "The end of all things is at hand; therefore keep sane and sober for your prayers."

The "end of all things" will be on the Day of Judgment when those who are asleep in their graves will rise first and then those who are alive will be "raptured, gathered up together, assembled together" or any other term that does not alter the intent of scripture in Thessalonians and many other verses - but there is only "one rapture"; NOT TWO as pre-mils and dispensationalist believe.

But the verse in 1 Peter 12 in NO WAY even hints at a "rapture, or a "gathering up" through the entire chapter!!!"

Now here is Keith's other references of 1 Corinthians to a "no rapture" claim even if a pre-mil rapture were true. See if you can see where there is any "rapture" line of thought is in these 3 verses....

1 Co 3:12-15 ~ "Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13)each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14)If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15)If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

==================================================

Next: HEAVEN
 
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ShineyDays2

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I was going to continue with Keith Hunt's rants about HEAVEN, but I am ending this with post paragraph #11) because there are so many heresies in almost every line that it would take weeks to cover his 27 paragraphs. I think that my previous two critiques should be enough to help you see that Keith Hunt is in no way a born-again Christian for no Christian would present the kind of trash that he did in this sample of the remaining 27 paragraphs....

P.11 Keith)..."Most Christians think that heaven is our destination and preachers tout it from the pulpit. Why then didn't the people of the Bible use such language? Could it be that they knew that going off to heaven where God the Father now dwells was NEVER promised to any earthy mortal person?"

Evidently in his searching the word "heaven" where he acknowledges that the word is used 570 in the Bible, he never found this profound verse concerning the last words that Jesus ever said to any human being before he died when he said to the penitent thief on the cross...

"And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." (Lu 23:43)​

About the word - "Truly"
When Jesus used the double Amen words "Truly, truly.." or "Verily, verily" at the beginning of a statement, he is telling us that the following words are extremely important. We should always stop instantly and take very seriously the implications of that statement --- whether or not it is a blessing or a warning. Today we would used the term "Listen up!!" to our kids.

"today" - We all know what "today" means but evidently Keith Hunt does not, or else he intentionally avoided it out of the 50 scripture verses listed because it did not fit his above underlined statement about heaven. It also blows apart his beliefs that "going off to heaven...was never promised to any earthly mortal person" since he has earlier said that "believers will be on earth."

Keith gives two comments that are totally opposite of Jesus' promise to the dying thief:

Keith said: "Not that we are in heaven, for the reality is: we live on earth, but the Kingdom, where our citizenship is; that we now belong to, is in heaven."...BUT VERSES LIKE THIS CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE!

Keith also said: "See if you can find a verse...or any plain statement about Christians or children of God going to be with God in heaven for ANY length of time.

Well Keith, I DID!!! Here are two, not including the thief on the cross, Elijah or Enoch....

1) "And I know that this man was caught up into Paradise--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--"
(2Co 12:3)​

2) "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.'" (Rev 2:7)

"Paradise" is interestingly used here instead of "heaven". It is only used 2 other times in the entire RSV. Paradise is usually taken as a reference to Eden. Rev 2:7 uses the term "tree of life" which is also in Eden.​
 
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keras

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DO HUMANS EVER GO TO HEAVEN?
#150 -
Keith Hunt's post by Keras
Grandiose effort MS.
I read it all and still disagree that anyone other than the 2 Witnesses are taken to heaven.
That you and millions of other Christians believe in the 'rapture to heaven' and can make a case by calling 'paradise' heaven and interpreting scriptures to suit, this does not prove such a thing to be true.

But what really proves the 'rapture to heaven' theory to be wrong, is the prophesies which tell us what God actually has planned for His people in the end times. [There will be an 'harparzo' when Jesus Returns; to His earthly location.]
All the faithful Christian peoples will go to and live in all of the holy Land. THAT is our destiny and our great privilege.
Proved by how we are there when the 'beast' conquers us. Daniel 7:25, Zechariah 14:1-2 and Revelation 13:7

I intend to start another thread on the subject of the great Second Exodus of God's people into the holy Land, where we will receive His Blessings and be His witnesses and His Light to the nations.
 
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ShineyDays2

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Keras said: "That you and millions of other Christians believe in the 'rapture to heaven' and can make a case by calling 'paradise' heaven and interpreting scriptures to suit, this does not prove such a thing to be true."

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
2 Corinthians 12:2, 4; Wis. 4:11; cf. Winers Grammar, 83 (80); [Buttmann, 54 (47); WH's Appendix, p. 170]); 2 future ἁρπαγήσομαι; [(Latin rapio; Curtius, § 331); from Homer down]; to seize, carry off by force: τί [Matthew 12:29 not R G (see διαρπάζω)]; John 10:12; to seize on, claim for oneself eagerly: τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ, Matthew 11:12 (Xenophon, an. 6, 5, 18, etc.); to snatch out or away: τί, Matthew 13:19; τὶ ἐκ χειρός τινος, John 10:28f; τινὰ ἐκ πυρός, proverbial, to rescue from the danger of destruction, Jude 1:23 (Amos 4:11; Zechariah 3:2); τινα, to seize and carry off speedily, John 6:15; Acts 23:10; used of divine power transferring a person marvellously and swiftly from one place to another, to snatch or catch away: Acts 8:39; passive, πρὸς τ. θεόν, Revelation 12:5; followed by ἕως with the genitive of place, 2 Corinthians 12:2; εἰς τ. παράδεισον, 2 Corinthians 12:4; εἰς ἀέρα, 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
[Compare: δι-, συναρπάζω.]

Vines Expository Dictionary: Catch:
"to snatch or catch away," is said of the act of the Spirit of the Lord in regard to Philip in Act 8:39; of Paul in being "caught" up to Paradise, 2Cr 12:2, 4; of the Rapture of the saints at the return of the Lord, 1Th 4:17; of the rapture of the man child in the vision of Rev 12:5. This verb conveys the idea of force suddenly exercised, as in Mat 11:12, "take (it) by force;" Mat 12:29, "spoil" (some mss. have diarpazo here); in Mat 13:19, RV, "snatcheth;" for forceful seizure, see also Jhn 6:15; 10:12, 28, 29; Act 23:10; in Jud 1:23, RV, "snatching."
See PLUCK, PULL, SNATCH, TAKE (by force).
 
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ShineyDays2

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That you...can make a case by calling 'paradise' heaven and interpreting scriptures to suit, this does not prove such a thing to be true.
Keras, I quoted verses that were inspired by the Holy Spirit straight out of scripture as written without interpreting it "to suit' myself. It is you that is in complete denial of the truth of God's written Word when all you have to do is read it for yourself as is. BUT, you seem to have more of a hardened heart than the Jews that Jesus condemned for their abuse of the Torah.

I even went so far to provide you with learned scholars who provide us with interpretation of the Hebrew and Aramaic languages that serve to clarify the original text so that we do not have to slide into heretical views and spread false beliefs around as the Antichrist is known for doing. If you can't understand how "Paradise" and "heaven" are in essence have the same meaning or thought then you are even farther from the truth than the Jews of today are!

I don't say this with any degree of bitterness because I truly believe you need to seriously get out of the Old Covenant that Jesus says he fulfilled and start living in the New Covenant where verses after verse makes it clear that there will be no new literal temple built as born again Christians are "the true temple of the Holy Spirit.

2Th 2:4 - "...who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

temple: not HEIRON / literal
temple: NAOS spiritual - meaning we are the temple that is referred to in the above verse!
 
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ShineyDays2

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2Pe 2:1 - But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

How does one deny the Master who bought us?
1- By inserting words into Thessalonians to create a new thought that was not there.
2- By building a "new literal" temple when Jesus said in John 4 that "no longer will you worship the Lord neither in Samaria nor in Jerusalem for my kingdom is not of this world." (not precisely word for word but the thought is accurate)
3- By changing the word "sacrifices" reinstated to "a memorial or teaching" venue when Christ never ordained it or instituted it in the entire NT. It is a pure denial of the atonement!
4- It create a vision of a Christ that was a total failure.
5- It brings a glorified Christ back down to a sin cursed earth.

There is probably more but I don't think you will get the point anyway.
 
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