Justification?

Danthemailman said:

When it comes to repentance unto salvation (Acts 3:19; Acts 11:18) belief/faith is implied and when it comes to saving belief/faith repentance is implied because they are two sides to the same coin. Not so with baptism. You can repent and believe the gospel but not yet be water baptized.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

So the only logical conclusion *when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture* is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Ezekiel 36:25 says, "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities" (also see Numbers 19:17-19; Psalm 51:2,7). Physical water represents or signifies spiritual purification, but it does not cause it. In John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. Also see John 4:10,14. The word "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26)

Baptismal regeneration is a false doctrine that adds works to the gospel.

False and you are obviously Roman Catholic. Been there, done that prior to my conversion several years ago.

The new covenant is certainly a better covenant on better promises.

Water baptism is an ordinance, not a sacrament.

Have you even considered "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39? Again, in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

Also "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, divine life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23), but the Holy Spirit is the Agent who accomplishes the miracle of regeneration.
*So to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

In regards to water baptism in John 3:22, Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus is over with and He has moved on. John 3:22 - After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing. So water baptism does not fit the context of John 3:5.

(though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples)
In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. *Living water is not water baptism. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit. Water baptism is the picture or symbol of the new birth, but not the means of securing it.

False and heretical doctrine. Born again means "born from above."

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned." So what happened to baptism in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? and no baptism is not implied.

There have been many people over the years in various false religions and cults who have a spurious faith yet have gone on to receive water baptism. If someone truly rejects faith and does not even believe in the existence of Christ, then they would not bother getting water baptized. If baptism is a second requirement then why is it not mentioned in so many passages of scripture in connection with obtaining salvation? (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Gonna stick with the "it's assumed" argument? That may be the only desperate attempt to get around the truth here.

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Danthemailman said:

Dying with Christ and rising to new life is signified, but not procured in the waters of baptism. A symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality. Man is justified by faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone. (Romans 5:1) You can believe God’s word or whatever your church teaches you. The choice is your’s. As for me my faith trusts in Christ alone for salvation.

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Clare73 said:

You're writing Scripture now, as in Gal 1:9?

For Paul, there are only two considerations:

1) faith + works, and
2) faith apart from works, which is "faith alone."

Ac 13:38 (Paul) - Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

Ro 1:17 - For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: 'The righteous will live by faith' " (Hab 2:4)

Ro 3:21-22 - But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known. . .This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ.

Ro 3:28 - We maintain that a man is justified (declared righteous) by faith apart from observing the law.

Ro 4:5 - However, to the man who does not work, but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Ro 6:14 - you are not under law, but under grace.

Gal 2:16 - know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.

Gal 3:10 - All you rely on observing the law are under a curse.

Gal 3:11-12 - Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because 'The righteous will live by faith,' and the law is not based on faith. On the contrary, the man who does these things will live by them." (Lev 18:5)

Eph 2:9 - you have been saved, through faith. . .not by works, so that no one can boast.

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Clare73 said:

You didn't address Paul's teaching above, which he received from Jesus Christ personally, in the third heaven (2Co 12:1-5).

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Clare73 said:

No, in the context of Ro 1:18-3:20, where most of those Scriptures (post #85) are located, works are not just the Mosaic law.
Works are deeds, whether according to the Mosaic Law, by which God judged the Jews unrighteous (2:1-3:8), or
according to conscience, by which God judged the Gentiles to be unrighteous (1:18-32),
and thereby declared all mankind unrighteous,--"no one is righteous, not even one" (Ro 3:10, 23, 5:12, 18) and locked-up in sin (Ro 3:9, 11:32; Gal 3:22).

All law-keeping is excluded from having anything to do with the righteousness of justification; i.e., being declared by God to be "not guilty,"
which saves you from God's wrath on sin at the Judgment (Ro 5:9).

Now, in light of Ro 1:18-3:20, go back (post #85) and review again what Paul reveals from the third heaven (2Co 12:1-5)
regarding works and the righteousness of justification; i.e., all works are excluded.

Salvation is the Lord's!" (Rev 7:10), and his alone (Rev 12:10, 19:1; Ps 37:39, 62:1; Isa 43:11; Hos 13:4).

The issue, in the NT emphasis and importance of separating works from justification (salvation), is so that the redeemed have a
full understanding and appreciation of the sheer magnitude of their blessing from the goodness of God in their redemption. . .and at
so great a price to him, a salvation that is all of God and nothing (nada, zero, zip) of man, for "Salvation is the Lord's!" (Rev 7:10),
so that no one can boast (Eph 2:9; 1Co 1:29), they can only marvel in gratitude and praise of the glorious and infinite GOODNESS of God!

That is why Paul is so insistent on it (which importance was revealed to him by Jesus in the third heaven)--for the benefit of the believer's apprehension of the magnitude of the GOODNESS of God.

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