Saying goodbye

Paul4JC · Jan 29, 2021

Guess it would depend on the context of the death.

[Act 8:2 NIV] Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him.

cvanwey · Jan 29, 2021

InterestedAtheist said:
Imagine you were saying goodbye to a dear friend, or loved one. They're off on a voyage, sailing on a ship to a far away land.
But now, imagine that this far away land they're sailing to is a wonderful place, where they can have a much, much happier life than the one they had here. They're going to a place that is wonderful in every way.
And then, even more good news - soon, you'll be taking the same voyage, and you'll be with them, and you'll both be living in this wonderful place, together, enjoying the most amazing life possible - far, far better than anything you've ever experienced before.

But instead, we wave goodbye to them on the pier, crying, and surrounded by others, crying and mourning. Which is strange, if they're going to such a wonderful place, and you're going to join them soon.

Or as Shakespeare put it:

Jester: Good lady, why do you mourn?
Lady: For my brother's death.
Jester: I think his soul is in hell, lady.
Lady: I know his soul is in heaven, fool.
Jester: The more fool, lady, to mourn for your brother's soul being in heaven.

If Christians are right, and if the dying are going to a place of infinite wonders, and if they'e going to go there too, then why mourn for them? Surely a burial of Christians should be a place of happiness, satisfaction and delight, with anticipation for the joy soon to come to those left behind.

I'm surprised that the following answers have not yet been given?

If you are a genuine true-blue believer, part of the mourning process may be that they do not feel their loved one might actually be going to a 'better place'? There is a rather large topic of 'hell' to contend with, from the Bible... And according to the Bible, many/most are going there. The Bible does not seem very clear, as to whom will make it, and whom will not. I've covered this topic, ad nauseam... Is it grace alone, grace by faith, grace by faith/works, other other other?

And then there are those whom maybe, deep down, have much doubt there exists anything after death at all; even if they claim they are believers. Isn't it quite possible many mourn for such losses, because they know that, deep down, they may never see this person again?

Halbhh · Jan 29, 2021

InterestedAtheist said:
Imagine you were saying goodbye to a dear friend, or loved one. They're off on a voyage, sailing on a ship to a far away land.
But now, imagine that this far away land they're sailing to is a wonderful place, where they can have a much, much happier life than the one they had here. They're going to a place that is wonderful in every way.
And then, even more good news - soon, you'll be taking the same voyage, and you'll be with them, and you'll both be living in this wonderful place, together, enjoying the most amazing life possible - far, far better than anything you've ever experienced before.

But instead, we wave goodbye to them on the pier, crying, and surrounded by others, crying and mourning. Which is strange, if they're going to such a wonderful place, and you're going to join them soon.

Or as Shakespeare put it:

Jester: Good lady, why do you mourn?
Lady: For my brother's death.
Jester: I think his soul is in hell, lady.
Lady: I know his soul is in heaven, fool.
Jester: The more fool, lady, to mourn for your brother's soul being in heaven.

If Christians are right, and if the dying are going to a place of infinite wonders, and if they'e going to go there too, then why mourn for them? Surely a burial of Christians should be a place of happiness, satisfaction and delight, with anticipation for the joy soon to come to those left behind.

Quite right on the key point!

I'm happy to be able to largely agree with you on the single most key thing in a post.

There is another aspect that is important to know tho --

Of course, anyone that is especially close to a loved family member might cry both tears of joy and also cry in an involuntary bodily reaction to losing an immediate physical closeness of someone you lived with every day, ate with every day.

Both.

So, that even though you are happy for them, at the same time you will miss them physically in just a basic way!

This would be especially likely when they are not elderly, but younger, like 40 or 50 for instance.

So, then, you'd be both happy for them, rejoicing, and also crying some because you lost a close person in your immediate family, both at once.

I've seen that happen more than a few times, in others, where they are very visibly both happy and sad simultaneously, the very close family members.

Lost4words · Jan 29, 2021

InterestedAtheist said:
Death? What death?

I rest my case

InterestedAtheist · Jan 31, 2021

With thanks to @Halbhh , @Clizby WampusCat and others who answered. I'm afraid I've been a bit under the weather lately. You won't be saying goodbye to me just yet, but my answers may be delayed a bit.

Reasonable Christian · Jan 31, 2021

For me, it's a mixture of joy and sadness; mostly the latter, but also some of the former. That's how my family and I felt when my Grandmother died; we held a memorial service that was a celebration of her life and the fact that she was in Heaven, but also a time of mourning that she was no longer with us. It's also how I will feel when my mother, who is gravely ill, dies. I will be sad that I won't get to see her in Heaven for another 30 years (or however long I live), but on balance I will feel more joy than sadness because she is no longer suffering and is perfectly happy in God's presence.

Is there a point to this thread? Are you making some sort of argument (If X, then Y)? If your argument is, "If Christians truly believe their Christian loved ones are going Heaven, they should feel zero sadness when those loved ones die," that obviously doesn't follow. I can logically feel sadness from being deprived of someone's companionship for an indeterminate amount of time while still feeling joy that they are in Heaven. Feelings are complicated, and people rarely feel just one thing about any given situation.

Clizby WampusCat · Jan 31, 2021

InterestedAtheist said:
With thanks to @Halbhh , @Clizby WampusCat and others who answered. I'm afraid I've been a bit under the weather lately. You won't be saying goodbye to me just yet, but my answers may be delayed a bit.

Hope you feel better soon.

Clizby

InterestedAtheist · Feb 2, 2021

Lost4words said:
I rest my case

Do you? Why?
I was asking seriously. What "death" are you talking about?
A Christian does not die at death. They continue living the rest of their eternal life in a wonderful new form, in a place of infinite delights.
You call that death? "Continuing to live in a better form than before" doesn't sound like death to me.

InterestedAtheist · Feb 2, 2021

Clizby WampusCat said:
Hope you feel better soon.

Clizby

Much better now, after a couple of days of rest, thank you!

InterestedAtheist · Feb 2, 2021

Reasonable Christian said:
Is there a point to this thread?

Yes, there is.

Reasonable Christian said:
Are you making some sort of argument (If X, then Y)?

Yes, I was. But I have decided not to make it.
If your mother is unwell, then you have my sympathy, and I think this is neither the time or place to discuss a subject like this. Under other circumstances I would be happy to continue and to point out the problems with the Christian worldview. But under these circumstances, I think it's best to let the conversation rest here, and shall not continue with this thread, for the time being.

Jesse Dornfeld · Feb 6, 2021

There is a man at my church who is older (not super old mind you) who just lost his wife. Since then, I recall him worshiping like I had never seen him worship before.

The point: It's not a given that all Christians morn the loss of someone who has passed in the way the OP is assuming is the case.

InterestedAtheist · Feb 7, 2021

True Counterphobia said:
There is a man at my church who is older (not super old mind you) who just lost his wife. Since then, I recall him worshiping like I had never seen him worship before.

The point: It's not a given that all Christians morn the loss of someone who has passed in the way the OP is assuming is the case.

Anecdotal data doesn't really count. It's what we see in society as a whole that matters. And what we see is that Christians don't actually act as if they believe Heaven (and hell, for that matter) exist. They say they believe it, but they act as if they don't.

Jesse Dornfeld · Feb 7, 2021

InterestedAtheist said:
Anecdotal data doesn't really count. It's what we see in society as a whole that matters. And what we see is that Christians don't actually act as if they believe Heaven (and hell, for that matter) exist. They say they believe it, but they act as if they don't.

Uh huh. Well, how many Christians do you know who have acted this way compared to how many who have not?

InterestedAtheist · Feb 7, 2021

True Counterphobia said:
Uh huh. Well, how many Christians do you know who have acted this way compared to how many who have not?

Very few. Generally Christians act much like non-Christians when encountering death - sad and frightened.
Because they say they believe in heaven - but really, they don't.

Jesse Dornfeld · Feb 7, 2021

InterestedAtheist said:
Because they say they believe in heaven - but really, they don't.

I'm appalled by the gall you have to say this without considering other possibilities to test what you have stated, such as human nature.

InterestedAtheist · Feb 7, 2021

True Counterphobia said:
I'm appalled by the gall you have to say this without considering other possibilities to test what you have stated, such as human nature.

Are you? Okay.

Matt5 · Feb 7, 2021

InterestedAtheist said:
Imagine you were saying goodbye to a dear friend, or loved one. They're off on a voyage, sailing on a ship to a far away land.
But now, imagine that this far away land they're sailing to is a wonderful place, where they can have a much, much happier life than the one they had here. They're going to a place that is wonderful in every way.
And then, even more good news - soon, you'll be taking the same voyage, and you'll be with them, and you'll both be living in this wonderful place, together, enjoying the most amazing life possible - far, far better than anything you've ever experienced before.

But instead, we wave goodbye to them on the pier, crying, and surrounded by others, crying and mourning. Which is strange, if they're going to such a wonderful place, and you're going to join them soon.

Or as Shakespeare put it:

Jester: Good lady, why do you mourn?
Lady: For my brother's death.
Jester: I think his soul is in hell, lady.
Lady: I know his soul is in heaven, fool.
Jester: The more fool, lady, to mourn for your brother's soul being in heaven.

If Christians are right, and if the dying are going to a place of infinite wonders, and if they'e going to go there too, then why mourn for them? Surely a burial of Christians should be a place of happiness, satisfaction and delight, with anticipation for the joy soon to come to those left behind.

We're all going to die. So what if you die a few decades early. What's the big deal? Stop being a baby. I say that as I think about being the biggest baby of all.

There's still fear of the unknown. That's true even if logically we shouldn't be.

InterestedAtheist · Feb 7, 2021

Matt5 said:
We're all going to die. So what if you die a few decades early. What's the big deal? Stop being a baby. I say that as I think about being the biggest baby of all.

There's still fear of the unknown. That's true even if logically we shouldn't be.

Unknown? I thought Christians knew what was going to happen. They're going to go to heaven. I've heard many Christians assure me - and themselves - that it's an unimaginably wonderful place.
But from what you say, it seems that Christians don't really believe what they say. They say they believe in heaven - but really, they don't.
Interesting!

Matt5 · Feb 7, 2021

InterestedAtheist said:
Unknown? I thought Christians knew what was going to happen. They're going to go to heaven. I've heard many Christians assure me - and themselves - that it's an unimaginably wonderful place.
But from what you say, it seems that Christians don't really believe what they say. They say they believe in heaven - but really, they don't.
Interesting!

Most Christians aren't good Christians. Who would have thought that?

Maybe logic is not high on the agenda of people who are dying.

Hazelelponi · Feb 7, 2021

InterestedAtheist said:
Imagine you were saying goodbye to a dear friend, or loved one. They're off on a voyage, sailing on a ship to a far away land.
But now, imagine that this far away land they're sailing to is a wonderful place, where they can have a much, much happier life than the one they had here. They're going to a place that is wonderful in every way.
And then, even more good news - soon, you'll be taking the same voyage, and you'll be with them, and you'll both be living in this wonderful place, together, enjoying the most amazing life possible - far, far better than anything you've ever experienced before.

But instead, we wave goodbye to them on the pier, crying, and surrounded by others, crying and mourning. Which is strange, if they're going to such a wonderful place, and you're going to join them soon.

Or as Shakespeare put it:

Jester: Good lady, why do you mourn?
Lady: For my brother's death.
Jester: I think his soul is in hell, lady.
Lady: I know his soul is in heaven, fool.
Jester: The more fool, lady, to mourn for your brother's soul being in heaven.

If Christians are right, and if the dying are going to a place of infinite wonders, and if they'e going to go there too, then why mourn for them? Surely a burial of Christians should be a place of happiness, satisfaction and delight, with anticipation for the joy soon to come to those left behind.

When you truly love someone, you cry because you'll miss them...

My son has been staying with us for a few months as my husband and I needed him surrounding a major surgery I had... he's gone now, just an 8 hour drive away, but I still cried after he left.

Why? Because I love him and will miss him. He doesn't call me nearly enough when he's away.. haha. And i really liked having him with us, it was nice.

Now if I cry over someone I can pick up the phone and call whenever I'd like, what am I going to do when it's going to be 20, 30, 40 years before I can see or talk to them again?

It's just human nature to miss people, regardless of where they're going... that is, if we truly love them. And some of us are criers..

Saying goodbye

the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing

Well-Known Member

Everything You say is Life to me

Jesus I Trust In You

Veteran

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran

Veteran

Veteran

Slave to Christ

Veteran

Slave to Christ

Veteran

Slave to Christ

Veteran

Well-Known Member

Veteran

Well-Known Member

:sighing:

Similar threads