First Cause Argument

cvanwey

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Only illogical if that existence that always was, hasn’t always been conscious.

Sounds like you are arguing that some source "consciousness" has always existed, which A) was always fully aware of all, and also exempt from materialism? Verses the alternative, B) where "consciousness" maybe has only developed later on, and has since become more progressively aware through natural/material processes?

Sounds like we are delving into the topic of 'substance dualism" (i.e.)?

A) Raw consciousness (outside of materialism) vs. B) Material stuff (that's all there is)
 
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Chriliman

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Sounds like you are arguing that some source "consciousness" has always existed, which A) was always fully aware of all, and also exempt from materialism? Verses the alternative, B) where "consciousness" maybe has only developed later on, and has since become more progressively aware through natural/material processes?

Sounds like we are delving into the topic of 'substance dualism" (i.e.)?

A) Raw consciousness (outside of materialism) vs. B) Material stuff (that's all there is)

I'm not necissarily arguing for either, but I find it fascinating to talk about and consider the evidence. I found this video that sums up the latest differing theories quite well. Skip ahead to 3:16 if you want.

 
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cvanwey

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I'm not necissarily arguing for either, but I find it fascinating to talk about and consider the evidence. I found this video that sums up the latest differing theories quite well. Skip ahead to 3:16 if you want.


So what exactly are you saying?

Sounds like you are arguing that consciousness could not have arose from materialism?... That consciousness is independent from materialism... That consciousness always was, and that maybe, some "greater consciousness" is/was necessary to 'create/generate/manufacture' new consciousness?
 
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Chriliman

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So what exactly are you saying?

Sounds like you are arguing that consciousness could not have arose from materialism?... That consciousness is independent from materialism... That consciousness always was, and that maybe, some "greater consciousness" is/was necessary to 'create/generate/manufacture' new consciousness?

I’m not arguing for it, I’m just acknowledging the possibility. Are you able to rule that possibility out?
 
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cvanwey

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I’m not arguing for it, I’m just acknowledging the possibility. Are you able to rule that possibility out?

Am I able to rule what out? That consciousness can be independent of the material brain?
 
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cvanwey

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No. I can't rule it out. Just like I cannot rule out "the Matrix". Just like I cannot rule out "demons controlling my thoughts". I cannot rule anything out with 100% certainty.

I look at it's probability. I find it is much more highly probable, based upon discovery, that consciousness derives from the material brain, and nowhere else. I'd say, that without getting into a black and white fallacy, that only two options are available (i.e.):

A) Raw consciousness = 0.01%
B) materialism = 99.99%

You could combine/split/add "the Matrix" and "demons controlling my thoughts" to option A), with equally the same level of probability.

How about you?
 
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Nihilist Virus

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Nothing lies beyond our universe. Our universe does not reside in anything. (Which is not the same as saying it lies in nothing.)

The pop-science link you provided suffered the problem with many pop-science links. It simplified and misrepresented to the point of being worthless.

You cannot possibly know that. At best, you can say that the universe is causally isolated, but that is also an open question.

Consensus view of thousands of cosmologists, astrophysicists, astronomers, mathematicians etc. who have made such work their life study.

(If you were referring to my view of pop-science then the answer is, decades of contrasting my knowledge, acquired from textbooks, research papers and undergraduate studies with the simplified presentations in pop-science works.)

Parallel universes would reside in the bulk space along with our own universe. There are many models of cosmology which contradict you.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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As I have not studied to the level of you, apparently, I will not contend your assertion(s) here about our known 'universe' :)

But what I was kind of eluding to prior, is that our 'universe' comprises of a space/time continuum, right? (rhetorical)

God is said to exist outside of space and time, right? This means that whatever realm God dwells, is outside temporal predicates and/or this 'space', right? (rhetorical)

So I again ask you, or theists whom wish to chime in, before the 'Big Bang' and our 'universe', was there complete 'nothingness'? I would assume the theist would argue that God is timeless, spaceless, and always existed. Hence, does not adhere to the 'laws' of our known 'universe'. There could not be complete 'nothingness', as this would also include the assertion of a God.

Moving forward, if God is exempt from this acknowledged space/time arena we humans know, God would still apparently reside in 'something', right? Whether it be a timeless/spaceless realm, a transcendent realm, or other...

When did God decide to produce this realm/arena? And what exactly did God dwell within before-hand?

Do you know what was in the Ark of the Covenant? I'll give you a hint, it was, at the very least, representative of God.
 
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Matt5

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Aquinas argued that this first cause must have no beginning - that is, nothing caused it to exist because the first cause is eternal.

If the above is true, and God is this first cause, then what exactly did God dwell within before He created it?

I think what this means is that the current universe must have come from something that is completely unlike it. This is where the rules of our universe don't apply. If this is not true then our universe and the thing it came from would have run down eons ago.

God's dwelling place must be unlike anything we have ever seen before.
 
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Matt5

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But did He have to create it, before He dwelled in it?

I would guess yes.

Before God created any other beings, did he even need a dwelling place?

This is kind of trippy stuff. Why is there only one God? Was there a god war and he is the only survivor? How is it possible that nothing created God because he was always here?

My only conclusion is that the world outside of our universe operates differently. Therefore, we cannot understand it.
 
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