Halloween and "cultural appropriation".

muichimotsu

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How does the upper class control the wealth and hoard money? Examples?
Tax breaks for the wealthy pushed by lobbyists in those corporate entities that are allowed per judicial decisions to do so and with no limits either.

How do they hoard money? Per the tax breaks I just noted and that's statistically about 70-80% of the total wealth concentrated in the hands of less than 30-40 people, not to mention we have someone almost at the level of a trillionaire in Jeff Bezos, who stepped down recently as Amazon's CEO supposedly.

But is that going to stop him from exploiting the system that already favors amassing more money and not really using it to solve problems in a way that might inconvenience the wealthy long term? Call me skeptical on that.

Are you just going to play apologist for the rich now as if uber-capitalism doesn't put ableist and oppressive labor-centered policies and norms into place that are sending us into a spiral?
 
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Ken-1122

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Uh...no they're not, it isn't an absolute universal, it's varying a lot by state, if not county level in terms of how much they're willing to put into it funding wise
Districts that spend a lot of money on sex education still have big problems with teenage pregnancies so sex education is not a fix all, and it does nothing to all the other problems not snitching when a crime takes place, book smart equals acting white, etc.
Tax breaks for the wealthy pushed by lobbyists in those corporate entities that are allowed per judicial decisions to do so and with no limits either.

How do they hoard money? Per the tax breaks I just noted and that's statistically about 70-80% of the total wealth concentrated in the hands of less than 30-40 people, not to mention we have someone almost at the level of a trillionaire in Jeff Bezos, who stepped down recently as Amazon's CEO supposedly.
So the ability to keep more of the money you rightfully earned is hoarding? You’ve got to be joking! Hoarding is taking more than your fair share; not fighting to have only 35% of it taken away instead of 40%. Of course as long as it isn't your money that is being stolen who cares right?
 
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muichimotsu

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Districts that spend a lot of money on sex education still have big problems with teenage pregnancies so sex education is not a fix all, and it does nothing to all the other problems not snitching when a crime takes place, book smart equals acting white, etc.

That's a mere correlation fallacy, you're ignoring other factors even apart from the reductive cultural aspect you seem to think permeates everything to a point that systemic or socioeconomic issues aren't even worth considering

Never said it was a fix all, cite me otherwise where I said anything like that.

And I certainly never said it would fix the other problems, you're strawmanning us as claiming comprehensive sex ed would solve gang violence as some causative link, when no, that's entirely false and misrepresenting what we claimed
So the ability to keep more of the money you rightfully earned is hoarding? You’ve got to be joking! Hoarding is taking more than your fair share; not fighting to have only 35% of it taken away instead of 40%. Of course as long as it isn't your money that is being stolen who cares right?

Who says 1) they rightfully earned it and 2) that they deserve to have so much money that conceivably you'd never spend it all or even enough to compare to what most people are struggling to make ends meet spend and stress over constantly? This isn't as simple as "I've got mine, screw everyone else," which certainly sounds like what you're advocating, some idea that capital accumulation and labor are the only values a person can contribute to society and thus we should look up to the wealthy instead of regarding them with skepticism when they stack the deck in society in their favor with lobbying, along with corporations doing the same thing because they both benefit from policies that would place less regulations on big businesses and allow them to use tax loopholes and such so they don't actually pay their fair shar ein taxes even if we have upwards of a 35% tax rate now (which is punishingly small even compared to some of our best economic periods, where it was well over 50% for people earning over a certain level).

Also, I don't think you properly understand how taxing works in regards to the upper brackets, your entire income isn't taxed, only the percentage above a certain level, which is where you have incentivizing to be more than a bit crafty and craven with your money, like charitable donations to appear magnanimous, but also serving as a tax write off so you don't get into those upper brackets necessarily.

And let's not even start on how a wealthy successful businessman that managed to get into the presidency and then lost apparently has had very poor tax records and only paid about $750 the year he was elected, a pittance relative to his earnings.

Money isn't stolen when the intent behind taxes is to stimulate the economy. I don't pretend to be an expert at all, got a C in Econ back in college, but dishonestly characterizing taxes as theft makes you seem like the kind of person who might as well not want a government except when it's convenient for you rather than recognizing its necessity in spite of flaws that can come about. Humans are not islands, we're holistic social beings, you cannot claim that someone isn't hoarding merely because they "pay their fair share" in a system that demonstrably allows them to avoid that and "trick" the system into treating them like they have far less money than they do for the purpose of taxing them in a proportional and equitable fashion.
 
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gaara4158

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What do you mean by better reproductive outcomes?
Fewer unwanted pregnancies, fewer STDs, fewer abortions. This directly contradicts your notion that there’s a culture of frivolous, unsafe sex in these areas.
I don't know. I would assume the sex education would be the same (don't know why it would be different) but the culture would be different. What does this have to do with what I asked?
Why would you assume the same quality of education is available in two schools with vastly different funding and resources? There’s this thing called Google that takes all the guesswork out of these questions, you know. It appears that the converse of your assumption is true: sex culture appears to be the same across class lines (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ably-similar-until-it-comes-to-birth-control/)
while sex education is divided across income lines (The effects of school poverty on adolescents’ sexual health knowledge).

We were talking about how to improve the problematic behavior of a certain class of people. You brought up sexual behavior as an example, and you assumed it stemmed from the culture and it would be on them to change their own culture to correct their behavior. It has been demonstrated that your assumption was completely incorrect. Perhaps in the future you will not argue in favor of your assumptions until you have seen data confirming that it is true.
 
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Ken-1122

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Never said it was a fix all, cite me otherwise where I said anything like that.

And I certainly never said it would fix the other problems, you're strawmanning us as claiming comprehensive sex ed would solve gang violence as some causative link, when no, that's entirely false and misrepresenting what we claimed
If it doesn’t address everything I said, how is this a better solution? Especially when you consider your idea has been tried for half a century already and the single issue it addresses has only gotten worse, but my solution has yet to be tried. Irresponsible sex isn’t the only thing we’re discussing here ya know! What about the other stuff I mentioned?
Who says 1) they rightfully earned it
If you have proof they earned it illegally, report them and they go to jail
and 2) that they deserve to have so much money that conceivably you'd never spend it all or even enough to compare to what most people are struggling to make ends meet spend and stress over constantly?
Why do you care how much someone else makes? Jealous??? If them making money does not affect you in a negative way (actually it helps you via the taxes they pay and the jobs they create) what business is it of yours how much money they make and what they choose to do with it?
This isn't as simple as "I've got mine, screw everyone else,"
Actually it could be! If they chose that attitude, it’s their business not yours; and we certainly don’t want the government dictating what you are allowed to do with your money
Money isn't stolen when the intent behind taxes is to stimulate the economy.
Raising taxes don’t stimulate the economy; tax cuts stimulate the economy.
I don't pretend to be an expert at all, got a C in Econ back in college, but dishonestly characterizing taxes as theft makes you seem like the kind of person who might as well not want a government except when it's convenient for you rather than recognizing its necessity in spite of flaws that can come about.
I think the role of government should be to provide people the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals. Now if that is what you call convenient for me? Then yeah; guilty as charged.
 
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Ken-1122

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Fewer unwanted pregnancies, fewer STDs, fewer abortions. This directly contradicts your notion that there’s a culture of frivolous, unsafe sex in these areas.
No it doesn’t! Look at movies, music, there media, etc. a quick look at the real world and you will see sex is glamorized, and though sex education may have had it’s share of successes, it has not prevented sex from being practiced by the irresponsible
Why would you assume the same quality of education is available in two schools with vastly different funding and resources? There’s this thing called Google that takes all the guesswork out of these questions, you know. It appears that the converse of your assumption is true: sex culture appears to be the same across class lines (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ably-similar-until-it-comes-to-birth-control/)
while sex education is divided across income lines (The effects of school poverty on adolescents’ sexual health knowledge).
What does this have to do with anything I’ve said? Did I say we don’t need sex education?
News flash!!! We can actually do BOTH Improve sex education where needed, AND change of culture.
We were talking about how to improve the problematic behavior of a certain class of people. You brought up sexual behavior as an example.
No; I brought up lots of stuff as examples sex only being one of them, but for some reason you seem to want to focus on sex and forget about everything else I was talking about.
 
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muichimotsu

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If it doesn’t address everything I said, how is this a better solution? Especially when you consider your idea has been tried for half a century already and the single issue it addresses has only gotten worse, but my solution has yet to be tried. Irresponsible sex isn’t the only thing we’re discussing here ya know! What about the other stuff I mentioned?

You don't have proof of that, you have skewed statistics that another poster has pointed out. And if you expect a panacea to all the problems you brought up, that's even more deluded than the willful ignorance that thinks statistics can't be spun dishonestly

If you have proof they earned it illegally, report them and they go to jail

First off, not my job, not a lawyer or anything like that and 2, do you think rich people can't hire the best defense lawyers and get off scot free? Again, this is hopelessly naive in thinking there cannot be some bias towards the wealthy because you think they just always earned it legitimately or aren't gaming the system in some form or fashion.


Why do you care how much someone else makes? Jealous??? If them making money does not affect you in a negative way (actually it helps you via the taxes they pay and the jobs they create) what business is it of yours how much money they make and what they choose to do with it?

Way to presume you know my mindset: oh, yeah, they sure pay their fair share in taxes and don't get loopholes that let them avoid it and they sure aren't outsourcing those jobs because that saves them money. Nope, totally not mine or anyone else's business when they screw over the working class they need to continue to keep hoarding money

It's the business of everyone insofar as they are exploiting those below them for their labor and then not doing anything to improve their status so that they could actually make more money with more productive workers. Instead they continue to prevaricate and act like the minimum wage is fine the way it is and people should just accept that their employers can short change them because that's the "free market"

Actually it could be! If they chose that attitude, it’s their business not yours; and we certainly don’t want the government dictating what you are allowed to do with your money

Not remotely what I said: people who treat others like means and not ends are the issue and that mentality is emblematic of modern American capitalism that would prefer to cut corners and pay workers a crap wage in order to keep more of their own profits because they "earned" it

Raising taxes don’t stimulate the economy; tax cuts stimulate the economy.

That's a whole other debate I'm not getting into, because you're assuming it only works one way and that the government can seemingly do no right, so I'm not talking to a brick wall on this
I think the role of government should be to provide people the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals. Now if that is what you call convenient for me? Then yeah; guilty as charged.

The problem is freedom should not be without consequences in violating people's trust and rights as regards a fair economy, not one that basically favors the rich in a way that can be spun to be about "freedom" which sounds nice, but the reality would be far worse if you remotely looked into it instead of playing defender for the wealthy as if they're all without sin
 
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muichimotsu

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What does this have to do with anything I’ve said? Did I say we don’t need sex education?
News flash!!! We can actually do BOTH Improve sex education where needed, AND change of culture.
Pretty sure you're strawmanning here, they never said that, they pointed out that we can't be equitable with the problems of unequal status that could be adjusted with better funding overall, but I guess that's not your problem, is it?
 
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gaara4158

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No it doesn’t! Look at movies, music, there media, etc. a quick look at the real world and you will see sex is glamorized, and though sex education may have had it’s share of successes, it has not prevented sex from being practiced by the irresponsible
Movies, music, and media are not the real world. Moreover, to whatever extent a culture of glamorizing irresponsible sex does exist, it is clearly mitigated by comprehensive sex education which, as I’ve had to repeat to you multiple times now, demonstrably reduces unwanted pregnancies, STDs, and abortions.
What does this have to do with anything I’ve said? Did I say we don’t need sex education?
News flash!!! We can actually do BOTH Improve sex education where needed, AND change of culture.
Sure. My argument has been that education affects outcomes more strongly than any top-down cultural influences and in turn has a greater effect on culture than any finger-wagging conservatives urging them to “change your culture!” ever could.
No; I brought up lots of stuff as examples sex only being one of them, but for some reason you seem to want to focus on sex and forget about everything else I was talking about.
We can bring up another social issue you don’t believe can be helped by education and other public resources, since we’ve settled the sex question.
 
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Ken-1122

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You don't have proof of that, you have skewed statistics that another poster has pointed out. And if you expect a panacea to all the problems you brought up, that's even more deluded than the willful ignorance that thinks statistics can't be spun dishonestly
Sex education became mainstream in this country in the 1960’s. During that time the out of wedlock birthrate of the demographic we are discussing was 25% today it is 70%. These are not skewed statistics, these are documented facts.
African-American family structure - Wikipedia
First off, not my job, not a lawyer or anything like that and 2, do you think rich people can't hire the best defense lawyers and get off scot free? Again, this is hopelessly naive in thinking there cannot be some bias towards the wealthy because you think they just always earned it legitimately or aren't gaming the system in some form or fashion.
Of course they are going to pay as little taxes as they can get away with; wouldn’t you? But that doesn’t take away from the fact that the top 1% pays more taxes than the bottom 90%. Obviously that isn’t enough for you.
The Top 1 Percent Pays More in Taxes than the Bottom 90 Percent | Tax Foundation
Not remotely what I said: people who treat others like means and not ends are the issue and that mentality is emblematic of modern American capitalism that would prefer to cut corners and pay workers a crap wage in order to keep more of their own profits because they "earned" it
Everybody treats everybody as means rather than ends. The employer treats the employee as a means of getting the product made, and the employee sells his labor to the employee at an agreed upon wage as a means of getting paid. It isn’t that way for all employees and employers, but to expect all employers to start a business in order to give people good paying jobs, while profit is secondary is as unrealistic as to expect all employees to go to work because he likes building quality products, and pay is secondary. It goes both ways ya know!
The problem is freedom should not be without consequences in violating people's trust and rights as regards a fair economy,
I agree! That is what the Government is for, to make sure everybody plays by the rules, and prosecute those who do not. That’s what I meant when I said the government should provide people (all people not just the rich) the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals.
Pretty sure you're strawmanning here, they never said that, they pointed out that we can't be equitable with the problems of unequal status that could be adjusted with better funding overall, but I guess that's not your problem, is it?
Did I say I had a problem with better funding? No. So why does he keep bringing it up?
 
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Ken-1122

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Movies, music, and media are not the real world.
No, but they have a cultural effect on people in the real world.
Moreover, to whatever extent a culture of glamorizing irresponsible sex does exist, it is clearly mitigated by comprehensive sex education which, as I’ve had to repeat to you multiple times now, demonstrably reduces unwanted pregnancies, STDs, and abortions.
Why are you constantly bringing up comprehensive sex education? Did I say I had a problem with sex education? No. So why do you keep bringing it up, then claim you HAD to repeat it to me multiple times? You’re fighting an enemy that doesn’t exist!
Sure. My argument has been that education affects outcomes more strongly than any top-down cultural influences and in turn has a greater effect on culture than any finger-wagging conservatives urging them to “change your culture!” ever could.
How do you know sex education affects outcomes more strongly than change of culture? When I look at immigrants from the diaspora who come here with a different culture, and they out preform native blacks, this shows the effectiveness of a different culture. What data do you have that shows sex education affects outcomes more strongly than culture?
 
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muichimotsu

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Sex education became mainstream in this country in the 1960’s. During that time the out of wedlock birthrate of the demographic we are discussing was 25% today it is 70%. These are not skewed statistics, these are documented facts.
African-American family structure - Wikipedia

Statistics as spun are distinct from the documentation itself, which is not the same as your attempt to make a causal link between sex education's normalization and the out of wedlock birthrate, as if there was nothing else that could've caused that: something you seem to enjoy doing consistently, reducing a problem to one thing and not considering that society is holistic in the interrelated problems that aren't going to just all be fixed because you address one of them


Of course they are going to pay as little taxes as they can get away with; wouldn’t you? But that doesn’t take away from the fact that the top 1% pays more taxes than the bottom 90%. Obviously that isn’t enough for you.
The Top 1 Percent Pays More in Taxes than the Bottom 90 Percent | Tax Foundation

Because the bottom 90% make jack squat compared to them: do you not realize the problem of big numbers here? These are people that have billions of dollars that they just want to keep and not spend in any productive fashion, just glorifying corporate greed and some idea that they "deserve" it and can do whatever they wish, because they can buy their privilege, making money more important than human lives


Everybody treats everybody as means rather than ends. The employer treats the employee as a means of getting the product made, and the employee sells his labor to the employee at an agreed upon wage as a means of getting paid. It isn’t that way for all employees and employers, but to expect all employers to start a business in order to give people good paying jobs, while profit is secondary is as unrealistic as to expect all employees to go to work because he likes building quality products, and pay is secondary. It goes both ways ya know!

Nice try, that's not what I mean: treating one as a mere means is the criticism from Kant's categorical imperative I'm referring to. We can have people that possess some functional benefit without that being their entirety: you seem to think it's okay to just exploit people's need for work and not pay them proportionally, so thus there isn't a need to pay them benefits because that's "not your problem" as an employer somehow.

I never said profit as secondary, you can pay your employees a living wage and give them benefits and make a profit, it's a matter of keeping those employees able to keep working and not get burnt out or otherwise lose motivation. Or do you think people can just push through depression or the like and "get over it"? We don't just cease to have potential for mental illness because we're being "productive"

Labor shouldn't be the sole quantifier of human worth, that's pure capitalism that becomes exploitative and not productive in a sense of efficiency, merely expediency.


I agree! That is what the Government is for, to make sure everybody plays by the rules, and prosecute those who do not. That’s what I meant when I said the government should provide people (all people not just the rich) the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals.

Except with wealth comes a privilege you don't appear to realize is why people are frustrated in how corporate lobbyists and the rich can basically bribe the government with crony capitalism so they don't have to play by the same rules
The government's "best interest" seems to be purely about money and not any sense of making sacrifices in the budget anywhere when it would affect those that keep giving them deals under the table or continue to pressure them with tariffs, etc. We can't just expect people to be intimidated by our military might when that won't matter if the rest of the world makes us dependent on them for the majority of imports.

Did I say I had a problem with better funding? No. So why does he keep bringing it up?

Because you appear to make the argument that the funding doesn't matter and that somehow grassroots change is the only effective method for making genuine societal impact and not funding from the government for services that will better and enrich society as a whole over generations
 
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gaara4158

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No, but they have a cultural effect on people in the real world.
So why put it on individuals to resist or change their own culture when you admit it’s Hollywood influencing the culture, not the individuals?
Why are you constantly bringing up comprehensive sex education? Did I say I had a problem with sex education? No. So why do you keep bringing it up, then claim you HAD to repeat it to me multiple times? You’re fighting an enemy that doesn’t exist!
Because you keep insisting it would be better to just wait for individual “street” people to change or overcome the culture of where they live rather than to invest any money into improving their material conditions, such as the quality of their education. It just isn’t getting through to you that material conditions are more important to culture than individual initiative. What I need to hear from you is “Yes, it’s a good idea to help the poor as a way of improving their behavior.”
How do you know sex education affects outcomes more strongly than change of culture? When I look at immigrants from the diaspora who come here with a different culture, and they out preform native blacks, this shows the effectiveness of a different culture. What data do you have that shows sex education affects outcomes more strongly than culture?
Your suggestion that a problematic culture of risky sex exists to a greater extent in areas with better sex education despite those areas having better reproductive outcomes would point to the conclusion that education influences outcomes to a greater extent than any problematic culture that might exist simultaneously. Either you’re wrong about the culture being strong there, or you agree that helping the poor works.

Immigrants come here having experienced an entirely different set of material circumstances, so it’s not surprising that they should outperform the native descendants of slaves. Some of these circumstances likely include economic status and education. We should look into what’s different about where they come from and see if we can’t implement those circumstances here, if they’ll help our native population.
 
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Ken-1122

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Statistics as spun are distinct from the documentation itself, which is not the same as your attempt to make a causal link between sex education's normalization and the out of wedlock birthrate, as if there was nothing else that could've caused that
I didn’t claim sex education’s normalization resulted in the out of wedlock birthrate, I pointed out to expect sex education alone to fix the problem has not worked.
Because the bottom 90% make jack squat compared to them: do you not realize the problem of big numbers here?
Problem??? I am part of the 90%. Just 40 years ago the 1% paid half as much as they pay now! That’s less for me to have to pay.
These are people that have billions of dollars that they just want to keep and not spend in any productive fashion,
Nobody has billions of dollars, they have assets worth billions. What they choose to do with those assets is their business not yours.
We can have people that possess some functional benefit without that being their entirety:
Nobody has the power to make your functional benefit your entirety.
you seem to think it's okay to just exploit people's need for work and not pay them proportionally,
Proportionally to what? The profits? So you want a system where the employees only get paid if the company makes a profit? Most will not like your system
so thus there isn't a need to pay them benefits because that's "not your problem" as an employer somehow.
Perhaps they cannot afford to pay them benefits.
I never said profit as secondary, you can pay your employees a living wage and give them benefits and make a profit,
A living wage? In most places, if you are willing to rent a room, rather than an apartment; use public transportation rather than buy a car, only provide for yourself rather than start a family, and buy clothes and furniture in second hand store rather than buy new, minimum wage can be a living wage. And because most minimum wage jobs are part time, you can work 2 jobs; a day job and a night job and get more than 40 hrs per week between the two jobs thus making it easier to make ends meet.
Labor shouldn't be the sole quantifier of human worth,
Labor isn’t the sole qualifier of human worth, it’s just that that is the only thing some people have to sell; and there is nothing wrong with that.
Except with wealth comes a privilege you don't appear to realize is why people are frustrated in how corporate lobbyists and the rich can basically bribe the government with crony capitalism so they don't have to play by the same rules
Yeah; the rich has lobbyists, but so does the middle income and the poor! How do you think the top 1% went from paying 18% of total taxes to nearly 40% in 40 years? Do you think the lobbyists for the rich is responsible for that?
 
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Ken-1122

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So why put it on individuals to resist or change their own culture when you admit it’s Hollywood influencing the culture, not the individuals?
Hollywood amplifies what the individual start, and make money from it. When they amplify something that makes them money, they will not volunteer and change for the good of the race, they will have to be dragged away kicking and screaming, in order to make changes.
When the individual applies the level of outrage they exert when bringing down confederate statutes, to boycotting comedians and music that use the N-word for entertainment, and go after the corporations that sponsor them, when the individual squashes that “no snitchin’ rule and start using the same cellphone camera they aim at the police during an arrest, but aim it at the drug dealers, gang bangers, and muggers, and send that video to the police, IOW when the individual decides to change their culture in a way that makes their neighborhood safe, and their lives improved, only then will Hollywood get on board; not before.
Because you keep insisting it would be better to just wait for individual “street” people to change or overcome the culture of where they live rather than to invest any money into improving their material conditions, such as the quality of their education.
I never said I had a problem with investing money into economically oppressed neighborhoods, perhaps the people living in those neighborhoods can elect politicians who are willing to invest in such neighborhoods; but that still doesn't dispel the need to change the destructive nature of some of the street cultures plaguing such neighborhoods
It just isn’t getting through to you that material conditions are more important to culture than individual initiative. What I need to hear from you is “Yes, it’s a good idea to help the poor as a way of improving their behavior.”
Help the poor as a way of improving their behavior? Are you kidding me??? So poor people are unable to control their own behavior now huh? They need the ole white man to come throw a bunch of money at them because they have no incentive to improve their behavior on their own huh? President George Bush spoke of the soft bigotry of low expectations……
Immigrants come here having experienced an entirely different set of material circumstances, so it’s not surprising that they should outperform the native descendants of slaves.
I said immigrants from the Diasporia (Blacks from the Caribbean’s, Bahamas, South America, etc) they are descendants of slaves
Some of these circumstances likely include economic status and education. We should look into what’s different about where they come from and see if we can’t implement those circumstances here, if they’ll help our native population.
THAT’S WHAT I’VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT!!! Their culture is different. We need to adopt a culture similar to theirs where education is promoted instead of vilified, the elders are admired instead of ignored by the young, and the nuclear family is foundational, because if a young man has no family structure at home, he will find one on the streets.
 
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gaara4158

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Hollywood amplifies what the individual start, and make money from it. When they amplify something that makes them money, they will not volunteer and change for the good of the race, they will have to be dragged away kicking and screaming, in order to make changes.
When the individual applies the level of outrage they exert when bringing down confederate statutes, to boycotting comedians and music that use the N-word for entertainment, and go after the corporations that sponsor them, when the individual squashes that “no snitchin’ rule and start using the same cellphone camera they aim at the police during an arrest, but aim it at the drug dealers, gang bangers, and muggers, and send that video to the police, IOW when the individual decides to change their culture in a way that makes their neighborhood safe, and their lives improved, only then will Hollywood get on board; not before.
Again, if you want to see a change in the behavior of these communities, you have to give them a good reason to. Have you ever considered that there might be a valid reason the people in poor communities don’t trust the police? Have you ever considered that tearing statues down is an attempt to change the local culture? Have you ever considered that perhaps the existence of drug dealers, gang bangers, and muggers is a direct result of poor education, targeted prohibition laws, and poor economic opportunities in the community? These are things that can all be helped with public funding and systemic reform, and it’s beyond me how you continue to bend over backwards to avoid this obvious conclusion.
I never said I had a problem with investing money into economically oppressed neighborhoods, perhaps the people living in those neighborhoods can elect politicians who are willing to invest in such neighborhoods; but that still doesn't dispel the need to change the destructive nature of some of the street cultures plaguing such neighborhoods
The point of these investments would be to change the destructive nature of the street cultures. You’re telling me B needs to happen, I’m telling you A leads to B, and you respond, “but we need B.”
THAT’S WHAT I’VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT!!! Their culture is different. We need to adopt a culture similar to theirs where education is promoted instead of vilified, the elders are admired instead of ignored by the young, and the nuclear family is foundational, because if a young man has no family structure at home, he will find one on the streets.
Culture isn’t imposed from the top down. It arises from material conditions. If you can’t get past this you’re never going to understand.
Help the poor as a way of improving their behavior? Are you kidding me??? So poor people are unable to control their own behavior now huh? They need the ole white man to come throw a bunch of money at them because they have no incentive to improve their behavior on their own huh? President George Bush spoke of the soft bigotry of low expectations……
This is uncontroversial in the study of socioeconomics. Culture is a function of material conditions. This holds true across all civilizations throughout all of human history. It’s kind of funny that you call this a soft bigotry of low expectations when it’s you who believes the “street people” just haven’t thought to take steps to improve their own lives.
 
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Ken-1122

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Again, if you want to see a change in the behavior of these communities, you have to give them a good reason to.
They already have a good reason to; and let’s be clear, I’m not talking about the criminal element in these neighborhoods, they are the problem; I’m talking about the law abiding people who want to live in peace and want safe streets to walk down at night.
Have you ever considered that there might be a valid reason the people in poor communities don’t trust the police?
They have more valid reasons to not trust neighborhood thugs that say no snitchin’ when you see me committing crimes.
Have you ever considered that tearing statues down is an attempt to change the local culture? Have you ever considered that perhaps the existence of drug dealers, gang bangers, and muggers is a direct result of poor education, targeted prohibition laws, and poor economic opportunities in the community? These are things that can all be helped with public funding and systemic reform, and it’s beyond me how you continue to bend over backwards to avoid this obvious conclusion.
High crime does lead to poor economic opportunities in a community; one sorta leads to the other. Who is gonna want to open a store in a crime ridden community only to have it robbed, stolen from, and countless other crime problems?
It is my understanding that there are tax incentives to get investors to invest in many such neighborhoods, but the little guy can’t afford to do it; it usually attracts big contractors who rebuild large areas of the neighborhood at a time, resulting in raised rent, forcing many of the original people out of the neighborhood (usually black and brown) while bringing in higher income other people (usually white) and even though crime is usually lessened when this happens, the complaints of gentrification usually results from those forced to move when this happens.
The point of these investments would be to change the destructive nature of the street cultures. You’re telling me B needs to happen, I’m telling you A leads to B, and you respond, “but we need B.”
No; you aren’t going to change the criminal element to law abiding citizens, you need to make the criminal element less attractive to law abiding citizens.
Culture isn’t imposed from the top down. It arises from material conditions. If you can’t get past this you’re never going to understand.
I’m not talking about something imposed from the top down, I’m talking about decisions made at the bottom, and going up
 
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gaara4158

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They already have a good reason to; and let’s be clear, I’m not talking about the criminal element in these neighborhoods, they are the problem; I’m talking about the law abiding people who want to live in peace and want safe streets to walk down at night.
Then by definition, their reasons not to are stronger. Let’s fix that.
They have more valid reasons to not trust neighborhood thugs that say no snitchin’ when you see me committing crimes.
Clearly not, if you believe they remain loyal to their muggers more reliably than to their police. People will always be more loyal to those who exert more influence over their everyday life, or “those they come home to.” If it’s thugs running the streets and not the police, that’s a problem that can’t be solved by asking individuals to behave as though that’s not the case. You’ll get people killed that way.
High crime does lead to poor economic opportunities in a community; one sorta leads to the other.
That’s just a small part of the picture. It’s obvious that poverty contributes to crime, and many studies have confirmed this fact. But the extent to which crime in turn perpetuates poverty is largely due to our criminal justice system. That’s a whole other thread’s worth of discussion. Suffice it to say that criminal convictions severely limit one’s economic opportunities.
Who is gonna want to open a store in a crime ridden community only to have it robbed, stolen from, and countless other crime problems?
It is my understanding that there are tax incentives to get investors to invest in many such neighborhoods, but the little guy can’t afford to do it; it usually attracts big contractors who rebuild large areas of the neighborhood at a time, resulting in raised rent, forcing many of the original people out of the neighborhood (usually black and brown) while bringing in higher income other people (usually white) and even though crime is usually lessened when this happens, the complaints of gentrification usually results from those forced to move when this happens.
I’m not talking about opening more coffee shops and wal-marts. I’m talking about subsidizing higher education, improving k-12 education, improving the quality of public utilities, raising the minimum wage, lowering the interest on small business loans, overhauling the criminal justice system, etc etc etc. Investing in impoverished communities doesn’t mean inviting capitalist investors, it means improving their environment by giving them better public resources.
No; you aren’t going to change the criminal element to law abiding citizens, you need to make the criminal element less attractive to law abiding citizens.
Law abiding citizens already dislike the criminal element. You have to ease the economic pressure that makes crime an attractive option in the first place. Eliminate the problem at the root.
I’m not talking about something imposed from the top down, I’m talking about decisions made at the bottom, and going up
By all means, try and start this law-abiding grassroots revolution in the hood. It’s my understanding that you simply left rather than taking on this endeavor you believe needs to happen yourself.
 
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muichimotsu

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I didn’t claim sex education’s normalization resulted in the out of wedlock birthrate, I pointed out to expect sex education alone to fix the problem has not worked.

Because you expect a change immediately, which is naive. And you're falsely correlating that one thing as what anyone is claiming will fix the problem in itself without other aspects that help in their own way, this isn't a reductive solution like why your car is not working.


Problem??? I am part of the 90%. Just 40 years ago the 1% paid half as much as they pay now! That’s less for me to have to pay.

You don't make as much money as the people that control 70% of our wealth, you're comparing apples and oranges. What you pay is a pittance compared to the wealthy, if they actually paid it instead of finding every possible loophole in the tax system to avoid it
Nobody has billions of dollars, they have assets worth billions. What they choose to do with those assets is their business not yours.

They should not have that amount of control, they didn't earn that money themselves, the workers that provide services they facilitate or represent as a CEO are essential, yet they don't get a say in it at all, they're exploited, cogs in a machine.

Nobody has the power to make your functional benefit your entirety.

Didn't remotely claim that, the problem is that's a norm in society, this isn't just going to go away because I believe something really hard, that's the opposite of any realistic skepticism to apply to how society works. Individual desires mean nothing in the broader scheme where the majority just go along with something because they don't think it can be changed or should.

I certainly never said I believed that, if you actually read what I said, it was an observation about ableist problems in society that you appear to not have considered because, shock, you're probably not disabled

Proportionally to what? The profits? So you want a system where the employees only get paid if the company makes a profit? Most will not like your system

Wow, way to utterly strawman what I claimed, you're making this some either/or all or nothing system, I want something where the workers are actually properly compensated and not just haggling or dealing with what they have instead of demanding actual economic equity in terms of what they provide to a company. An employer should never get to just exploit people because the rules say they can, that's unethical

Perhaps they cannot afford to pay them benefits.

Then maybe the problem should be addressed in regards to corporations like insurance companies who create a virtual monopoly and basically extort people in regards to providing their services in a way that benefits them more than those that are utilizing the service. I'm not solely blaming employers, the problem goes far deeper than that

A living wage? In most places, if you are willing to rent a room, rather than an apartment; use public transportation rather than buy a car, only provide for yourself rather than start a family, and buy clothes and furniture in second hand store rather than buy new, minimum wage can be a living wage. And because most minimum wage jobs are part time, you can work 2 jobs; a day job and a night job and get more than 40 hrs per week between the two jobs thus making it easier to make ends meet.

Except, no, that is expecting people to never strive ot be better, which is ironic with your idea that black people are just caught in low expectations and such from society rather than society not having their best interests at heart

Hah, that's not how this works at all, you're still suggesting that people should just deal with a broken system instead of striving to improve it, you are ENABLING the problem by defending it by the kind of exploitative mentality that just blames people for not working hard enough, as if hard work means squat in a plutocratic system where the rich continue to get richer because they have the government in their pocket


Labor isn’t the sole qualifier of human worth, it’s just that that is the only thing some people have to sell; and there is nothing wrong with that.
No, that's entirely wrong, because society should not treat people like they are worthless merely because they cannot have gainful employment if they are truly about trying to help people to enrich society in various ways, even if some ways aren't going to be profitable for a purely capitalist system that you see no problem with only because you are willing to play their game

Yeah; the rich has lobbyists, but so does the middle income and the poor! How do you think the top 1% went from paying 18% of total taxes to nearly 40% in 40 years? Do you think the lobbyists for the rich is responsible for that?

No they don't, you are an utter liar: that isn't lobbyists, that's the constituents who actually care about economic justice instead of special interests. Just because some changes happened doesn't mean there aren't loopholes and technicalities that the 1% can still utilize so they get to continue to hoard the money they can just spend at their leisure while millions of people go hungry, homeless and suffer massively while they continue to grow fat at the top?
 
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Ken-1122

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Because you expect a change immediately, which is naive.
Immediate change? It’s been over 50 years already!
And you're falsely correlating that one thing as what anyone is claiming will fix the problem in itself without other aspects that help in their own way,
No, I’m saying the other aspects is a change of culture.
You don't make as much money as the people that control 70% of our wealth, you're comparing apples and oranges. What you pay is a pittance compared to the wealthy, if they actually paid it instead of finding every possible loophole in the tax system to avoid it
Loopholes or not, they are still paying the lion’s share of taxes.
They should not have that amount of control, they didn't earn that money themselves,
If they got the assets legally, they earned it themselves. If they got it via illegal means, they should be reported and arrested.
the workers that provide services they facilitate or represent as a CEO are essential, yet they don't get a say in it at all, they're exploited, cogs in a machine.
f you invest in the company and become a shareholder, you have a say.
Didn't remotely claim that,
Then what did you mean when you said “We can have people that possess some functional benefit without that being their entirety:
Wow, way to utterly strawman what I claimed, you're making this some either/or all or nothing system, I want something where the workers are actually properly compensated and not just haggling or dealing with what they have instead of demanding actual economic equity in terms of what they provide to a company. An employer should never get to just exploit people because the rules say they can, that's unethical
Then answer my question; proportional to what? You said:

“ you seem to think it's okay to just exploit people's need for work and not pay them proportionally,

Those were your exact words. Proportional to what?

Then maybe the problem should be addressed in regards to corporations like insurance companies who create a virtual monopoly and basically extort people in regards to providing their services in a way that benefits them more than those that are utilizing the service. I'm not solely blaming employers, the problem goes far deeper than that
Most insurance companies and large corporations do pay benefits; it’s usually the small “mom and pop” stores that can’t afford to pay such benefits.
Except, no, that is expecting people to never strive ot be better,
No it isn’t; it’s expecting people to improve their skills so when they sell their labor, they can negotiate a better wage
No, that's entirely wrong, because society should not treat people like they are worthless merely because they cannot have gainful employment
If you can sell your labor, you are not worthless.
No they don't, you are an utter liar: that isn't lobbyists, that's the constituents who actually care about economic justice instead of special interests.
I’m a liar now??? Really? So the AARP is not a lobbyist for seniors to include the poor? The AFL-CIO is not a lobbyist for blue-collar workers and the poor? The CBPP is not a lobbyist for the poor? Really?

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