Are You Doing Enough?

cvanwey said:

My objective is very clear.

1. I'm asking you to simply reconcile that all that is necessary for salvation appears to be expressing your love for God. God covers all other 'sin', and the lack of 'works', by His grace alone. This renders many of your actions arbitrary. And yet, the Bible is filled with 'does' and 'do nots'? Quite odd, if they are not obligatory in salvation?

2. The claim to answered prayer has been expressed from people of differing religions as well. You cannot all be right, but you can certainly all be wrong. So I ask you again... How do you know you have been contacted by the Holy Ghost?

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1. The only human being who was able to love God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength is Christ.
2. I think the fact there are people of every faith who claim something supernatural happening is pretty good evidence for the supernatural existing, don't you think?

cvanwey said:

Because when I prayed to Him, I received no response. I continued to talk to myself. Thus, He is either ignoring me, I'm too dumb, or there exists no God. What is MOST likely?

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What kind of response were you looking for?

cvanwey said:

1. If you are all knowing, then you are watching what you already know is going to happen; to the "T". This presents little difference from watching 're-runs'

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If I am just remembering the free will choices you made yesterday, you might say I am “rerunning” through what I saw, but I would not call it a rerun.

cvanwey said:

2. Catholics genuinely think they must atone for 'original sin'. This has absolutely nothing to do with choosing not to obey. Why does God not offer correction for all the faithful? Since He seems not to want to, maybe you can? I know you do not need to, as God does not require any works, under your belief system. However, seems like the descent thing to do anyways, doesn't it?

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We get to do good stuff out of a gratitude type of Love.

cvanwey said:

3. God created two realms. -- A) Heaven and B) hell. God chooses whom goes to A) or B). Humans do not get to choose, as God is the judge and the jury. I reckon all would be happier in Heaven, being that hell is the only alternative.

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When we die the judgement is not the time the decision is being made since that was made by your actions from your heart here on earth, the judgement is the sentencing or award assembly time.

The choice is to be Loved and Love like God Loves or not. Heaven only has Godly type Love. Hell is not there so God can take pleasure torturing evil people, but is there to help some people on earth make the right choice.

cvanwey said:

4. Since you appear to have the ability to guarantee a path for your young loved one's salvation, would you refrain from doing so, to instead allow for free choice / free will? Please remember, the only alternative is hell. And according to the Bible, most are going there.

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We all here on earth satisfy an objective: those that humbly accept God’s Love as charity fulfill the best objective. Those who refuse God’s Love to the point of never accepting Godly type Love, take on the lessor objective of helping those who can still choose to accept God’s Love, which can include going to hell.

cvanwey said:

5. God does not offer 'free will'. He instead offers a compulsory proposition, like taxes.

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Your choice is again, to believe enough to the point of being humbly willing to accept God’s forgiveness as pure charity or continue to pursue the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.

cvanwey said:

6. Under your belief, sin and works are virtually arbitrary. Someone like Stalin need not do anything more than to accept a gift.

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All mature adults sin and yes all we have to do is humbly accept God’s forgiveness of those sins as pure undeserved charity.

cvanwey said:

7. Since all that is required, is accepting this gift, can such humans then still choose to be rotten to others?

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It is truly a gift so it is yours to do as you please with it and cannot be stolen, lost and even God will not take it back, but you can give it away.

Moral Orel said:

Is putting others' needs before your wants not something God wants you to do? Take note of my careful use of "needs" and "wants". Put a roof over your head and food in your belly, but after that, shouldn't you make sure other folks have roofs and foods before you indulge yourself in entertainment, comfort, and luxuries?

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Luke 3:10 ¶ And the crowds asked him, “What then shall we do?”
Luke 3:11 And he answered them, “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.”
Luke 3:12 Tax collectors also came to be baptized and said to him, “Teacher, what shall we do?”
Luke 3:13 And he said to them, “Collect no more than you are authorized to do.”
Luke 3:14 Soldiers also asked him, “And we, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages.”

The above is what Jesus commands us to do.

The Good Samaritan:

Luke 10:25 ¶ And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
Luke 10:26 He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?”
Luke 10:27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”
Luke 10:28 And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”
Luke 10:29 ¶ But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
Luke 10:30 Jesus replied, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead.
Luke 10:31 Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and when he saw him he passed by on the other side.
Luke 10:32 So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.
Luke 10:33 But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him, he had compassion.
Luke 10:34 He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he set him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him.
Luke 10:35 And the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper, saying, ‘Take care of him, and whatever more you spend, I will repay you when I come back.’
Luke 10:36 Which of these three, do you think, proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?”
Luke 10:37 He said, “The one who showed him mercy.” And Jesus said to him, “You go, and do likewise.”

The above is the practical application or how it looks. The Samaritan didn't need to go out of his way to help his neighbor. His neighbor was presented to him to help.

Moral Orel said:

So that's how hard you need to work at being a good person. Don't go out of your way or anything, but if someone is right there then I guess help them out. That's a far cry from "with everything in you" dontcha think? More like, "with whatever you have on hand at the time".

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I probably couldn't walk out of my apartment building before I would have to help someone. There are people to help EVERYWHERE.

Of course, you raise and interesting point, which is, "What should I be doing with my time?" because that question is implicit to doing what is Good, correct? So would it be Good of me to ignore helping someone? Probably not. Would it be Good of me to give to the poor? Absolutely as one of the things Jesus commanded was to give to those who don't have as much as you do.

The main thrust I want to make here, is that it is NOT easy to help everyone who comes in your path to help. I know because I have tried it enough to know I fail at it.

A more appropriate way to phrase it would be to always be on the lookout for people who you can help in both big and small ways.

Moral Orel said:

If it's truly a gift, then there are no requirements on me whatsoever to retain it. I prayed the sinner's prayer back when I was 15, and if there is a Heaven, I still want in, so I'm golden. I've done a ton of rotten stuff since then (and before then). Some of it (a little) I feel bad about (a little) but most of it I'm fine with, and I'll do it again too. But I want to spend eternity in paradise, so If God is handing it out, I'm taking it. No strings attached, right?

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the gift is truly yours to do as you please with it so you can give it away.

Moral Orel said:

Thanks to the internet there is a wealth of resources out there to find information on how to donate your time and money. If you're always on the lookout, you'll be spending all of your spare time and all of your spare money helping others, yes?

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Depends. I feel I am doing Good by talking to you right now. There are many ways to do Good. Some of those ways you have to go out of your way to do and other things you can do from your own convenience. For example, I can, and have, had homeless people over at my apartment to feed them and give them a place to stay for a few hours. On the face of it, this might look like a really Good thing to do, but it caused some problems such as possibly creating a safety hazard for the other residence of my apartment. So from that I really have two option: I can either send money to some place in replacement of helping someone like that (which I do) or I can volunteer at a homeless shelter to do basically the same function but in a safer way to do it and it being a place that is better suited to do something like that (which I plan to do). The difference in helping people like this is that in the first instance, the person came to me and I tried to help them. In the second, I have to go out of my way to do the same thing. If it wasn't for the apartment manager having a problem with letting homeless people in our building, I would help the homeless person out in the same way again.

So you see, it's complicated. But that is what is great about being saved is that I have the Holy Spirit living in me who can direct me to do what God wants me to do when I need to do it.

Oh, also @Moral Orel, it's important to remember that we need time to ourselves as well. Jesus would frequently stop everything He was doing to go be by Himself and just pray alone.

Moral Orel said:

I just said I'm keeping it. I'm not giving it away, it's mine now. So I can do anything I want as long as I don't say "No thanks!", right?

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Out of gratitude for such a gift what do you want to be doing?

True Counterphobia said:

1. The only human being who was able to love God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength is Christ.
2. I think the fact there are people of every faith who claim something supernatural happening is pretty good evidence for the supernatural existing, don't you think?

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Please stay with me here:

1. Under your belief system, the only true requirement for salvation is your love for God. Any/all of your sins and failed works are then covered by God's loving grace. This means that if both you and Stalin professed allegiance and love to YHWH, you are both equally saved, regardless of your sin(s) and work(s) on earth. YES or NO? If yes, this ultimately renders sins and works virtually arbitrary. If no, then please tell me what else, besides loving God, is mandatory and unforgivable - (not covered by God's grace)?

2. We also have people everywhere claiming haunted houses, alien abductions, mediums, psychics, etc. Since we have a lot, all over the place, this must validate them too, right? In your specific case, and applying Occam's Razor, what's more likely of the two given choices [a) or b)]?

a) The one true God manifests to all religious believers, even if they are not praying to Him specifically, and God does not correct any of these incorrect people, and also continues leading them to believe they are speaking to their preferred God for which they profess, and some attribute answers to their prayers - when they are actually 'answered', and also attribute 'unanswered' prayers as "God saying no or not now", etc etc etc?

Or...

b) Many people feel they are receiving contact from a higher power, but really are not.

True Counterphobia said:

What kind of response were you looking for?

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Anything besides the feeling of me talking to myself.

bling said:

If I am just remembering the free will choices you made yesterday, you might say I am “rerunning” through what I saw, but I would not call it a rerun.

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I think you know what I mean here God is watching what He knows is going to already happen (i.e.) the exact time, the exact place, the exact people; the exact everything involved.

bling said:

We get to do good stuff out of a gratitude type of Love.

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This response does not look to address anything I stated here? Why does God not offer any correction to the devout and faithful? Humans try to 'correct' other humans all the time. God does not bother. We have many Christian sects, whom might not make it to heaven, merely because there are genuinely mistaken.

Maybe the answer is simple... All that really matters, is accepting His free gift. The rest is just parsley on the dinner plate - (not required or necessary)? Which begs the next question... Why list the (do's and don'ts), if they are not necessary/mandatory?

bling said:

When we die the judgement is not the time the decision is being made since that was made by your actions from your heart here on earth, the judgement is the sentencing or award assembly time.

The choice is to be Loved and Love like God Loves or not. Heaven only has Godly type Love. Hell is not there so God can take pleasure torturing evil people, but is there to help some people on earth make the right choice.

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(answered the purple above) Then it is not "free will" or a 'free choice'. It is instead compulsory. What if someone told you to love me, and if you do not, I will throw you into a fiery pit? Would this even make any sense??? You cannot force or coerce love. God is basically telling His readers that all whom do not believe and love Him will be sent for eternal torture. Seems rather odd, from an agent whom claims pure love, doesn't it?

bling said:

We all here on earth satisfy an objective: those that humbly accept God’s Love as charity fulfill the best objective. Those who refuse God’s Love to the point of never accepting Godly type Love, take on the lessor objective of helping those who can still choose to accept God’s Love, which can include going to hell.

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Nothing here addressed my point Let me help you.

If believing people, like yourself, knew of a loophole, where 100% of the time, they would go to heaven, many would fulfill this loophole for all the ones they truly love. Such believers would somehow assure each and every loved one perish prior to the age of accountability. Again, the only conclusion is either Heaven or hell.

bling said:

Your choice is again, to believe enough to the point of being humbly willing to accept God’s forgiveness as pure charity or continue to pursue the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.

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Belief is not a choice. If belief is a choice, choose to believe God is not God. You cannot. Choose to believe your skin is made of pudding. You do not choose your beliefs. You can choose to protect an existing belief, but that is another topic altogether.

Again, God's offer is instead compulsory, and not truly free

bling said:

All mature adults sin and yes all we have to do is humbly accept God’s forgiveness of those sins as pure undeserved charity.

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Looks like you are completely conceding my point. Aside from accepting God's free gift, sin and works are practically arbitrary; because they are all instead covered by God's grace - (once you are a follower). This means Stalin's actions are all negated by grace, if only he professed to Jesus before his death. Glad we finally settled this one

bling said:

It is truly a gift so it is yours to do as you please with it and cannot be stolen, lost and even God will not take it back, but you can give it away.

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So I guess you can choose to be a rotten person to other humans, as long as you accept the free gift.

cvanwey said:

I think you know what I mean here God is watching what He knows is going to already happen (i.e.) the exact time, the exact place, the exact people; the exact everything involved.

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You have to address it from God’s perspective: “for God, He is not looking at what is going to happen, but what did happen and there is a huge difference. To say “going to happen” means it has not already happened for God so it is not history but in the future for God like it is for humans. If you say God knows what happened in our future, then we could have been the free will cause for that happening. God just knows because God is not limited by human time.

cvanwey said:

This response does not look to address anything I stated here? Why does God not offer any correction to the devout and faithful? Humans try to 'correct' other humans all the time. God does not bother. We have many Christian sects, whom might not make it to heaven, merely because there are genuinely mistaken.

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cvanwey said:

Maybe the answer is simple... All that really matters, is accepting His free gift. The rest is just parsley on the dinner plate - (not required or necessary)? Which begs the next question... Why list the (do's and don'ts), if they are not necessary/mandatory?

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The “do’s and don’ts” are always to help us. You have this free gift, which means it is yours, but you still have need free will, so you can choose at any time to give up your gift. By doing the do’s and avoiding the don’ts you maintain your desire for unselfish, unconditional, unselfish Godly type Love, which is in contrast to carnal type love. If Godly Love loses its value you might just give it up.

cvanwey said:

(answered the purple above) Then it is not "free will" or a 'free choice'. It is instead compulsory. What if someone told you to love me, and if you do not, I will throw you into a fiery pit? Would this even make any sense??? You cannot force or coerce love. God is basically telling His readers that all whom do not believe and love Him will be sent for eternal torture. Seems rather odd, from an agent whom claims pure love, doesn't it?

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If you really believe there is the Christian heaven and hell then you believe there is this Christian God and this believe can save you. You don’t Love God if as a nonbeliever hell bound, but you can after God has showered you with gifts including eternal life.

God is pure Love but He cannot help those who have continuously refused His Love to the point they will never accept His Love. They can still be used to help those still can be willing to accept God’s Love, even if the wind up in hell.

cvanwey said:

Nothing here addressed my point Let me help you.

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Yes this does address it: We all here on earth satisfy an objective: those that humbly accept God’s Love as charity fulfill the best objective. Those who refuse God’s Love to the point of never accepting Godly type Love, take on the lessor objective of helping those who can still choose to accept God’s Love, which can include going to hell.

cvanwey said:

If believing people, like yourself, knew of a loophole, where 100% of the time, they would go to heaven, many would fulfill this loophole for all the ones they truly love. Such believers would somehow assure each and every loved one perish prior to the age of accountability. Again, the only conclusion is either Heaven or hell.

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Yes this does address it: We all here on earth satisfy an objective: those that humbly accept God’s Love as charity fulfill the best objective. Those who refuse God’s Love to the point of never accepting Godly type Love, take on the lessor objective of helping those who can still choose to accept God’s Love, which can include going to hell.

cvanwey said:

Belief is not a choice. If belief is a choice, choose to believe God is not God. You cannot. Choose to believe your skin is made of pudding. You do not choose your beliefs. You can choose to protect an existing belief, but that is another topic altogether.

Again, God's offer is instead compulsory, and not truly free

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We agree some believe in the Christian God and some do not, so why is that not a choice?

cvanwey said:

Looks like you are completely conceding my point. Aside from accepting God's free gift, sin and works are practically arbitrary; because they are all instead covered by God's grace - (once you are a follower). This means Stalin's actions are all negated by grace, if only he professed to Jesus before his death. Glad we finally settled this one

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OK

cvanwey said:

So I guess you can choose to be a rotten person to other humans, as long as you accept the free gift.

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Why would you accepting the gift of unconditional, unselfish Love, if you want to be a rotten person to others?

Moral Orel said:

What do you get the God that has everything? But seriously, nothing. I just want the free gift. A good person desires to repay kindness, but I don't have to be a good person, so what does it matter?

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The most significant part of the gift is Godly type Love and if you give that away everything goes with it.